Judaism Elitist Religion?

[Salibi]

you want to be Jewish it doesn’t matter if you believe in God or not, but you absolutely must reject Jesus. You realise if a Christian agrees to that definition of being Jewish, they basically see Jews as damned, those who can’t be saved, because the only way to heaven is through Jesus and apparently you have to reject him to be Jewish.

I may be wrong because I’m not Jewish, but from my understanding based on reading and conversing with Jews I don’t think it’s about rejecting Jesus specifically as much as it’s about remaining within the parameters of what is considered acceptable in the Jewish faith. Recall first that Judaism is an orthopraxic religion, where salvation is primarily obtained through the practice of Judaism. Thus, even if one does not believe in God, the mere continued practice of Judaism makes one a good Jew and leads to salvation (as per Jewish belief). That said, a conversion to Christianity probably means that the convert is no longer practicing Judaism, possibly “nullifying” his or her Jewish status.

It’s probably not specifically about rejecting Jesus as it’s about no longer practicing Judaism. The same applies if a Jew converts to Hinduism or Jainism or another religion (although I recall reading somewhere that there is a special case for Islam-Judaism considers it to be monotheistic and allows Jews to pray in mosques…I may be very wrong here but I think I read it somewhere…perhaps @Pattylt or @Kaninchen can help).

That said, I also wouldn’t disregard the role historical persecutions by Christians have played in shaping Jewish attitudes to Christianity, so many there’s an element of what you say in the issue raised.

 

[Polak]

So you think they’ll be shown what they missed out on and that they were wrong, causing them much emotional pain, before they cease to exist.

 

[Nicene]

Not ritualistic, but rather sacrifice. It was the biggest objection of the rebels/reformers.

 

[Pattylt]

Are there religious Jews in that too? If so, what do religious Jews believe happens to ‘bad’ people?

Yes, there are religious Jews that do not believe in hell. Many believe in a purgation of 11 months and some just believe we all become part of The World To Come. Jews really don’t have dogmas. There are beliefs you are supposed to believe but, they’re all open for discussion.

Really? So you have to at least do the practices to be considered Jewish?

I suspect this is one of those ask a different Jew get a different answer type things.

Yep. It’s open for discussion, too.

I would imagine that there are Jews who would still consider Jewish Christians that were originally Jewish to still be Jewish. It would be personal opinions…and open for discussion! Just as I’m sure my family still considered me Jewish as would those that remember me from my community. After all, I didn’t become Christian!

I realize you want strict definitions. They just aren’t there. Judaism is a community religion even more than a personal one and like any community, you’ll get a variety of responses. At best you could talk to a Rabbi and get his view. He usually holds more weight than the average Jew.

 

[Pattylt]

Judaism is a community religion

Actually, to @Tis_Bearself, I forgot to mention this as well. The community aspect. I think Catholicism had this as well in the past but maybe not so much anymore. Jews see themselves as a nation, with or without Israel. They watch out for each other. They feel an obligation to each other. It’s rather strong, too. It may be lessening these days as I’ve not been involved like I used to be but I have a feeling it’s still ongoing. It’s why other cultures distrusted the Jews and accused them of collusion or, at the least, preferring their own to others. It’s a misunderstanding of how important the community is to Judaism. Everything from financially helping each other to getting them jobs or set up in another community.

When my husband and I moved to Columbus Ohio we stopped at the local synagogue. I was still identifying as Jewish then. We told the secretary we had just moved here and my husband was looking for work…he had a job two days later. It’s just what Jews do for each other and actually, it’s a trait more religions should have. Yes, it’s preferential treatment but legal. I’d think nothing of a Catholic being helped by his church just like this and I assume it still happens within churches all over. Jews just feel more obligated?

 

[Pattylt]

One final thought then I’ll shut up!
I did some research on @Salibi question about Judaism and Mosques. Jews are permitted to pray in a Mosque if it isn’t being used at that time for Muslim prayers. Because Islam is accepted as a monotheistic religion they are allowed but they cannot participate in any way with Muslim prayers. I know little about Jews and Muslims interacting as growing up, there were no Muslims in my city at that time.

I also discovered something I either wasn’t aware of or just never put two and two together…the problem with Jews and Jesus. I want everyone to know these aren’t my thoughts! I will not argue them nor defend them. Judaism doesn’t view Christianity as a monotheistic religion. Yes, I always knew that we never viewed Jesus as God as, according to Torah, man can never be God. I didn’t realize that Christianity is not considered monotheistic! The Trinity is considered idol worship. That right there is probably the biggest reason that Jewish Christians are no longer considered Jewish.

Learn something new everyday. I understood that Jews didn’t agree with Christians views on a Trinitarian God but I just never put it together that that makes it idol worship in their eyes. Don’t shoot the messenger here. I’m sure I’m not the only Jew who never realized the implications…honestly, we never even discussed Jesus at all until I was in high school religious classes (post Bar and Bat Mitzvot class).

 

[BartholomewB]

Not ritualistic, but rather sacrifice.

Sacrifice? In present-day Judaism? Are you sure?

 

[Kaninchen]

That said, I also wouldn’t disregard the role historical persecutions by Christians have played in shaping Jewish attitudes to Christianity, so many there’s an element of what you say in the issue raised.

Legends of the pressures to convert and the consequences to the family and community of a member doing so have also played a part.

 

[Kaninchen]

but I just never put it together that that makes it idol worship in their eyes.

Inevitably, the process of defining God is a contradiction to strict monotheism.

 

[Niblo]

One final thought then I’ll shut up!

Never!

…

 

[Polak]

Jews see themselves as a nation, with or without Israel. They watch out for each other. They feel an obligation to each other. It’s rather strong, too. It may be lessening these days as I’ve not been involved like I used to be but I have a feeling it’s still ongoing. It’s why other cultures distrusted the Jews and accused them of collusion or, at the least, preferring their own to others. It’s a misunderstanding of how important the community is to Judaism. Everything from financially helping each other to getting them jobs or set up in another community.

When my husband and I moved to Columbus Ohio we stopped at the local synagogue. I was still identifying as Jewish then. We told the secretary we had just moved here and my husband was looking for work…he had a job two days later. It’s just what Jews do for each other and actually, it’s a trait more religions should have. Yes, it’s preferential treatment but legal.

Well do you not think this feeling others have about Jews is justified to some degree? If a Jew is going to help a Jew before a non Jew, it is preferential treatment. I don’t know of other religions that do that. Christians and Muslims (if we’re going through the main 3 monotheistic religions) are not taught to first help fellow Christians or Muslims before others, they are taught to help their fellow human being whoever they might be, who is also God’s creation. In fact the Bible says that we should love our enemy. It’s easy to love your friend, but you must love your enemy.

You said it is preferential treatment but legal. Well, if a Jew got a job over a non Jew in a company run by a Jew, despite having worse qualifications for it, would that be legal?

 

[Polak]

You’re really reaching there. The Catholic community isn’t known for helping each other out in the way @Pattylt explained Jewish people do. I’ve certainly not heard stories of a Catholic moving into town, and when somebody realised they were Catholic, they gave them a job. You might get help from a local Catholic church if you’re in need, but they also won’t help a Catholic first ahead of others.

Yes I was saying Christians are taught this. I’m not saying Jews were and this is why they are not following their own teachings.

 

[Pattylt]

Well, if a Jew got a job over a non Jew in a company run by a Jew, despite having worse qualifications for it, would that be legal?

If they did that, maybe. But they don’t. They match qualifications and offer openings within their companies. Honestly, if you don’t think Catholics, Muslims, whoever, don’t do that ,too, I can assure you that they do! Don’t Catholic Churches help Catholic immigrants get set up and employed within their communities? If a KoC moves to another city, don’t you think the KoC might send on an introductory letter and fellow members will help them out?

Jews have just done this for ages. Especially during the Middle Ages when they were kept in isolated communities. They’d often take younger members under their wings and teach them the business, mentor them.

I agree, Jews will help their own more than outsiders. They are obligated to help each other…it doesn’t mean they don’t help others as well. If you think charity only belongs to Christians, you don’t understand the importance of charity amongst Jews at all. Charity to all is number one! It’s considered the greater good a Jew can do and establishing them in a job is higher than just giving them money as you’ve now provided for their entire life.

 

[Nicene]

Here is a good article on the subject;

https://www.aju.edu/ziegler-school-rabbinic-studies/our-torah/back-issues/sacrifices-then-and-now

 

[Polak]

You clearly didn’t understand it.

 

[Nicene]

Actually, to @Tis_Bearself, I forgot to mention this as well. The community aspect. I think Catholicism had this as well in the past but maybe not so much anymore.

Hi Pattylit,

This week is probably apropos given Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.

This is still true and the church still teaches and prays in the Mass that it is offered for individuals and the nation (I.e. the church). The Mass is the culmination of all the OT sacrifices in which all the people are joined with Christ in the supreme sacrifice consisting of mainly these 4 ends; adoration, atonement, thanksgiving, and petition. The assembly (the people of God, I.e. the nation) gather as one people to offer this as a family.

I understand some of that is offensive to a Jewish understanding, it isn’t meant to be but rather an attempt to explain the Catholic understanding.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Pattylt]

I understand some of that is offensive to a Jewish understanding, i

I’m never offended by other people’s religious beliefs! Anyone who is, is being hypocritical or just culturally or religiously illiterate.

Rosy Hashonnah is celebrated in the home after a brief synagogue service and Yom Kippur is celebrated in synagogue…all day long! You can come and go, though. The final breaking of the fast is celebrated in the home though. I’m trying to remember, are any catholic holidays or occasions celebrated exclusively in the home? Or half and half? I know that Christmas and Easter are accompanied by home meals but is there any services connected to it? Even Passover is a home service.

Is this distinctly Jewish?

 

[BartholomewB]

I know that Christmas and Easter are accompanied by home meals but is there any services connected to it? Even Passover is a home service.

Is this distinctly Jewish?

As far as I’m aware, yes, I think it is. A ceremonial meal at home, to be accompanied by prescribed prayers, a set pattern of questions and answers, and so on is something I’ve never heard of in any Christian church.

 

[Pattylt]

Interesting…anyone know if Muslims have this? Just curious…

 

[Polak]

Pointing out that you didn’t understand something I said isn’t personal