Judaism Elitist Religion?

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Pattylt said:
It isn’t Christianity minus Jesus. It’s very different and worth understanding, just as I have enjoyed understanding Christianity!
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I don’t think you have to tell us this, we’re readily aware of that. I feel like there is a sense among some Jewish apologists to “one up” Christianity, as if they have a better view of the world than us, like how it’s always being asserted that Jews, unlike Christians, generally don’t believe in an eternal hell and thus Judaism must be more compassionate and have a better understanding of the Bible, but that’s just a failure to understand our theology. I also find that often times the Judaic elements of Christianity are ignored by Jewish apologists, like the many antique traditions that we inherited from Judaism but that may no longer be believed by Orthodox Jews today are often contrasted to sound as if they’re completely foreign and not of the Biblical tradition. It’s very alienating. I don’t necessarily seek to convert you (although in my point of view it would be joyous if Jews did come to accept the person we believe to be the Messiah, as it would be for anyone who converts Jew or gentile) but I do want to be united with you in our belief of the God of Abraham, because Jews and Christians see Abraham as the father of our faiths, and Christianity comes from Judaism and we believe in the Jewish scriptures and Jesus himself was Jewish! But often times Christianity is painted as “the other”, as if we’re a bastard child who are really pagans underneath. It’s very disheartening. Now I get it why many Jews are resistant to Christianity, because after hundreds of years of persecution which we deeply regret, and many Christians today share a collective guilt of this and we’re trying to right our wrongs. I admittedly feel a lot of guilt about this, I simply want to foster an understanding between us. We’ve tried to change our image, but there doesn’t seem to be much forgiveness. I just wish the Jewish people would at least acknowledge us as fellow brothers and sisters who believe in the same God, even if we believe in that God in different ways.
 
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@YHWH_Christ

My best friend is an Orthodox Jewish lady I’ve known for 26 years. For the past five years or so, we’ve been studying the Torah together via Skype.

And it doesn’t matter how many times we go through the cycle of readings, there’s always something new to learn.

Because I was a newspaper religion editor in a heavily Jewish area, I got to know a lot of people. Every Orthodox Jewish person I’ve ever met has been kind and generous with sharing their knowledge. Rabbis especially have been kind to me.

I worked closely with a Reform rabbi who was always gracious.

So, no, Judaism is not an elitist religion.
 
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Maybe just let it go then. Jesus doesn’t mind if you read the Torah, any more than he minds if I pray the Kaddish with lousy pronunciation, but sometimes it’s best to just do these things by oneself.
 
I’d actually argue that both Judaism and Christianity are elitist in some respects. Both will refuse to acknowledge other gods. Both will exclude any combining of other beliefs into their own. Both insist the that God excludes other gods…it’s what makes them unique in the ancient world.

But, that’s a different kind of elitism. Both faiths welcome inquiry and discussion. Both have a few believers that condemn the other one. Thankfully, those are rare…at least I sure hope it is.

Arguments can be made that God is different from the God of the other but I think most agree that that’s in the details, not the general notion of God. I apologize to anyone that’s ever had to deal with a cantankerous Jew just as Jews have met some cantankerous Christians! You can’t generalize on what Jews believe anymore than you can about Christians. There are a variety of beliefs in both religions and, of course, both insist theirs is the true one! Christians insist on their reading of the Old Testament every bit as much as Jews insist on their readings. I recognized the similarities in the Mass to a Jewish service long ago. It was a delightful discovery! We can all learn much from each other when we open our minds and hearts.

I can also attest that many Christians don’t understand Judaism very well…Catholics usually do better in this area than Protestants, however.
 
In the formal sense yes, Judaism is elitist. That is why st Paul got so angry with the first Pope for siding with Jewish Christians who would not eat with Gentile Christians.
 
Pattylt said:
Catholics usually do better in this area than Protestants, however.
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I didn’t know that. I wonder why that is. Perhaps because Protestants can’t get past their objection to “ritualism” in both Catholic and Jewish worship?
 
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A lot of mainline Protestants also have their own rituals, like the Anglicans and Lutherans.
 
Yes, but those Protestants who complain about the “ritualism” in Catholic worship make the same complaint about “High Church” Anglicans and others.
 
So you’re not talking about all Protestants but some Protestants especially low church Protestants like Church of Christ or Baptists.
 
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I don’t know, I’m just wondering what the explanation might be. @Pattylt said:
Pattylt said:
I can also attest that many Christians don’t understand Judaism very well…Catholics usually do better in this area than Protestants, however.
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I think that the reason has to do with Catholicism recognizing the Jewish roots, not hiding it. Any Catholic that has read their church fathers, studied the history of the church, watched how the early church developed…will see where many facets of the Mass came from. The layout of the Catholic Church interior is similar to a synagogue. Protestants aren’t as likely to do these deep dives. Overall, even if they didn’t specifically study it, it’s mentioned by priests or bishops enough for the laity to know there is similarities even if they don’t know specifically what they are.

And I could be totally wrong!😂. I know here on CAF there’s a higher understanding of Judaism than the general public.
 
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Pattylt said:
I think that the reason has to do with Catholicism recognizing the Jewish roots, not hiding it.
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Here’s my question - I was going to start another thread, but your post here is kind of a good lead-in to what I was going to ask, so let’s just continue here.

You said the above - that Catholicism, and by extension all Christianity, has Jewish roots. You’re correct that, especially since Vatican II, us Catholics tend to celebrate the “Jewish roots” with an emphasis on the prophecies of the Messiah and how they were fulfilled (from our perspective) by the coming of Jesus Christ.

However, someone (maybe it was you?) posted on here in the past that Judaism is not simply “Christianity without Christ” but is something totally different. This is where I’m not quite getting it.

I know for many Jewish people, especially in the modern era post-WWII, being Jewish is more of a cultural identification than any sort of religious practice, so at most it’s a somewhat vague system of ethical behavior and perhaps even without a strong belief in God. I personally know Jewish people who are like this, oddly enough (to me) some of them even run, or are active in, Jewish organizations, which to me is like if a Catholic was running Catholic Charities while personally not believing that Christ was the son of God, but whatever.

I know for other more orthodox Jewish people, Judaism seems to be both a tradition of scholarship and a way to grow spiritually by studying and following God’s law; in this manner it seems not unlike Catholicism but with a much greater emphasis on following the letter of every OT law, and rabbinical study and guidance to adapt such laws to the modern life/ technology.

Occasionally I have met a Jewish person who was into the more esoteric and supernatural stuff like the Kabbalah. I would note that the last guy I met who was into that was also into Edgar Cayce who was a Christian, so I’m not sure whether that guy was the equivalent of the Catholic who is simultaneously into Marian apparitions and New Age crystals, but the man has since died and been buried in a Jewish cemetery so I guess he was Jewish enough. I also knew a “Jew for Jesus” and I have no idea how he fits into all this.

I am pretty sure my understanding of Judaism is missing something (perhaps a lot) here.

What, exactly does it mean to practice Judaism? If Judaism is not “Christianity without Christ” then what is it instead? An ethical system? A belief that you are one of God’s chosen people? Or something else?
 
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Well, yeah, stuff like that and “A Contract with God” by Eisner and lots of other Jewish literature where they chat with God.

Thing is, it sounds similar to old Catholics having a chat with God. There’s a certain trust and familiarity and feeling of “we go back a long way” even if the person is purportedly rejecting God.

So where’s the big difference?
 
Yes, well the person I’m referring to was a pretty erudite high-ranking engineer at my company whose father and brother were Jewish lawyers. He wasn’t a fluffhead or a Madonna type. I’d say he was about on the level of the people who credibly post here about Scripture studies and supernatural topics. He was kind enough to write one of my recommendations for law school application.

I don’t really have a strong opinion about Cayce, I think he overreached himself but I also think that he likely had some spiritual gifts because if you read as much Scripture as he did, in an isolated setting, it tends to happen. Cayce wasn’t Jewish though so I just mentioned that because I was pointing out the man wasn’t strictly limited to Jewish thought. Also he was aware of what you say about the Kabbalah taking years of study, he told me all that himself.
 
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A Hebrew teacher once told me, “If you want to start studying Kabbalah, the first thing you have to do is be Jewish.”
 
But see, it’s really telling that you likened being Jewish to being Irish or Italian, both of which would usually mean one was also culturally Catholic (except for the Protestant Northern Irish of course but they’re the minority). So, again, what’s the big difference between Judaism the religion, and Catholicism the religion, except for Christ?
 
Tis_Bearself said:
So, again, what’s the big difference between Judaism the religion, and Catholicism the religion, except for Christ?
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The differences are enormous. In 2000 years the two religions have grown very far apart. For a start, what would “Catholicism without Christ” look like? Christ is central to the Christian religion. Take Christ out of it, and what’s left?

I recommend this book. It’s barely 200 pages long, but it covers all the main points. It was favorably reviewed in First Things when it first came out, fifteen years ago.

https://www.amazon.com/Why-Jews-Rej...ubmit.y=7&dchild=1&qid=1600611841&refinements
 
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Can you or someone provide a couple paragraphs summary? A wise man knows his limitations, and I am unlikely to read one or more long books to simply understand why the two religions are apparently fundamentally different in some way.

Similarities from my perspective (which could be wrong):
  • Personal relationship with an interested, monotheistic, creator God
  • Sense of being part of a group special to God
  • Hope of salvation
  • Emphasis on shared group ritual
  • Shared OT scriptures
Differences from my perspective:
  • Christ, and salvation coming through him - believed by Christians, not believed by Jewish people
  • Many Jewish people place more emphasis on OT rules
  • Jewish people have been a minority religion while Christians have become a worldwide majority religion
  • Jewish people generally place more emphasis on scholarship and understanding while Catholics generally place more emphasis on faith
Is this capturing it, or is there some other reason why being Jewish is not like being a “Christian without Christ” - setting aside the fact that Christ is of course central to being a “Christian”?
 
Okay, just say “some shared scriptures” then.

I’m not expecting Jewish people to accept any of the NT. I would include that under “Christ” in my list of “key differences” since the main point of the NT is “Christ said this and that, and fulfilled this and that Jewish prophecy.”

So take away Christ, take away the NT, what’s left? Judaism.

So aside from Christ, how is it so different from Christianity?

I’m not trying to be rude, I’m just trying to get at why a Jewish person would say Judaism is not “Christianity without Christ”. I want to understand the statement.
 
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How is it not?

Again, not being rude, but they always seem similar to me. Someone needs to explain to me like I’m 5 what the big difference is, aside from Christ.
 
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