Judaism

[Valke2]

Thank you stillsmallvoice.

Unfortunately I don’t have access to good home made chicken soup. To be honest, I’m still not feeling good and this will be my second day off from work.

I’ll try to respond later tonight to your excellent information when I’m feeling a bit better.

PS: As a side note, I think part of my confusion is simply due to my not understanding Judaism from a distinctly Jewish perspective. I readilly admit that, as a Christian, I tend to see symbolism that you and Valke2 may not agree with me about.

Having said that, however, perhaps a part of my confusion is also due to the different schools of thought within Judaism.

For example, from what you’ve explained, when the Messiah comes, he will apparently restore Temple worship and will actively be engaged in its rebuilding-- therefore triggering the messianic age?

But, if I’m understanding Valke2, the messianic age itself will be the sign which brings forth the coming of the messiah-- something which appears, at least from my non-Jewish background, a contradictory teaching working in the opposite direction chronologically speaking.

Is this event so simultaneous so as to cause a blurring of cause and effect in regards to the messiah of Judaism?

Admitedly, when someone is investigating Christianity, I’m sure we leave many non-Christians rather confused by the differing beliefs we each claim to hold from our respective denominations-- sometimes Catholics can’t even agree with Catholics regarding some Catholic teachings even though the Magisterium has presented these ideas clearly for all Catholics to read and understand.

So please remember I’m not trying to prove anything against Judiasm. I’m just really trying to understand what’s being claimed within Judaism in regards to the coming of the messiah and the age to come-- and how this pertains to the bringing of gentiles into the Jewish faith.

I don’t know who stillsmallvoice is going to answer this (great screenname), but I think there is probably at least two views of this within the orthodox community. Whether the Messiah will actually rebuild the Temple or whether it will be built in his time, etc. The bottom line is that all these things will happen and he will be a leader of the Jewish people.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I don’t know who stillsmallvoice is going to answer this (great screenname), but I think there is probably at least two views of this within the orthodox community. Whether the Messiah will actually rebuild the Temple or whether it will be built in his time, etc. The bottom line is that all these things will happen and he will be a leader of the Jewish people.

Admittedly, I was fairly sure that there would be some divisions on this subject, even within as tightly a knit group as Judaism.

I remember reading an article a few years ago where there was some sharp debate between two Jewish scholars (or sages?)regarding whether thre temple would be built by the messiah or whether the temple would be built to welcome the coming of the messiah.

I can’t seem to find the article now, but it addressed some of the finer points that you addressed here. It was really an interesting read that got into the very deep and subtle nuances that most non-Jews like myself would not normally even think of if I hadn’t read the discussion.

Nonetheless, I guess I was confused with your second point here…

Valke2:

1. The Messiah will not usher all people of the world into the Jewish faith. This is not a general belief of Judaism. Rather, at the time of the messiah, all the world will worship God. This belief is dervied from, I think, Ezekiel 37:28 “Then the nations shall know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.”

…because in a this other thread you also mentioned this…

Valke2:

No. The messiah we wait for is not the same concept as the Christian messiah. He is not a divine being, but a leader who will usher in an era of peace, rebuild the Temple, bring all the Jews back to Israel, etc.

So, if I’m understanding this correctly, the promised messiah will not necessarilly bring all peoples into the Jewish faith. Rather, with each peoples, according to their own righteous knowledge of God, all people will be blessed with the coming of the messiah?

Again, as you know, I do believe that Jesus is the messiah. But I’m not trying to argue with you on this point. I’m just trying to get a good summary of how the expected messiah is to bring in this era of peace.

 

[Valke2]

Admittedly, I was fairly sure that there would be some divisions on this subject, even within as tightly a knit group as Judaism.

I remember reading an article a few years ago where there was some sharp debate between two Jewish scholars (or sages?)regarding whether thre temple would be built by the messiah or whether the temple would be built to welcome the coming of the messiah.

I can’t seem to find the article now, but it addressed some of the finer points that you addressed here. It was really an interesting read that got into the very deep and subtle nuances that most non-Jews like myself would not normally even think of if I hadn’t read the discussion.

Nonetheless, I guess I was confused with your second point here…

…because in a this other thread you also mentioned this…

So, if I’m understanding this correctly, the promised messiah will not necessarilly bring all peoples into the Jewish faith. Rather, with each peoples, according to their own righteous knowledge of God, all people will be blessed with the coming of the messiah?

Again, as you know, I do believe that Jesus is the messiah. But I’m not trying to argue with you on this point. I’m just trying to get a good summary of how the expected messiah is to bring in this era of peace.

That’s about it, yes. There will be an era of world peace, but that doesn’t require everyone to be jewish. The real answer is that we don’t know how it will come about, only that it will come about.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

1. Regarding salvation or redemption, the messaniac age of peace and all believing in God will not necessarily be the result of anything the Messiah does, but will rather be a sign that he is the Messiah. You have to remember that the Messiah will not be a divine being according to Jews. He will be a man. A man, in judasim, would not have the power to redeem the world. That would have to come from God.

Alright, I think I understand this part from the Jewish perspective a bit better. Specifically, according to Judaism, a man would not have the power to redeem the world. In other words, this could only come from God.

But yet, what about teshuva in regards to Moses’ and Abraham’s plea before God?

You had noted in another thread that when Jewish people engage in the process of Teshuva, they recognize their transgression, are truly sorry for it, seek forgivness from Hashem and those they have transgressed against, and, if and when the same situation presents itself, they behave in a way that does not result in breaking the commandment.

The example you provided was as follows…

Example: I cheat you on a business deal. I am aware of what I did was wrong and I am truly sorry for my actions. I confess my sin both to God and to you. In this case I can take steps to repair the wrong, i.e., returning the money. I make a sincere effort to get your forgiveness (whether you end up forgiving me is not a necessary element). Later on, a similar business deal is presented to me and I have the chance to again cheat the person on the deal and make a great deal of money. I choose not to do so.

Teshuva.

But if this is so, then how did Lot or the peoples of Israel actually recognize their transgression if Abraham or Moses had to essentially petition on their behalf before God to save them from destruction?

Admittedly, in the case of Lot within Sodom, Abraham pleaded on behalf of the innocent and the Lord apparently showed mercy specifically because of Abraham’s request before God.

But, at least in the case of Moses I already mentioned above, there certainly appears to be no record of innocence on the part of the Israelites. In fact, the Lord is quite clear that he is extremely angry with them to the point that he is ready to destroy all of them and start over again with just Moses remaining…

“I have seen these people,” the LORD said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”

But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. “O LORD,” he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people.

Interestingly, when I read passages like this, it almost seems as if the Lord is sharing his consciousness through the greatest of prophets Moses, essentially manifesting his own divine will by proxy through the human agent that is actually arguing with him.

And even if this is not the case, certainly in this case we do see a powerful example of Moses debating with the Lord on behalf of the people who were apparently no longer interested in following the very Lord who saved them from the bondage of Egypt.

Like Abraham before, there is no debating that the Lord was prepared to destroy the innocent with the guilty. And it was specfically because Moses pleaded with him that God severely reduced the parameters of the punishment he was going to deal out to all the Israelites except Moses.

If this is true, then how does teshuva fit into this debate between Moses and God?

 

[Valke2]

Alright, I think I understand this part from the Jewish perspective a bit better. Specifically, according to Judaism, a man would not have the power to redeem the world. In other words, this could only come from God.

teshuva

THere is also the concept of “Tikun Olam” – Repairing the world through acts of kindness, Teshuva, Charity, and generally obeying Torah. It is true that we believe that we collectivly have the power to do this. ANd that even if we don’t, we are still obligated to act as if we do.

If I understand your question, you are you asking how could the God say he would destroy the Jewish people if they were not given an opportunity to engage in Teshuva? That’s a good question. I"m not sure I have the answer, except to say that we believe that we can lessen the harshness of God’s decree through prayer, repentence (Teshuva) and charity. Moses pleading on behalf of the nation of Israel could be an example of prayer.

There’s also a difference in Judaism between individual transgressions and national transgressions. With a national transgression, the people are punished, whether or not there are good individuals who are part of the people. The example at Sinai would be one of a national transgression in which God seemed ready to destroy the people (a troubling story for me). More later.

 

[Valke2]

One more point. It is quite possible they did not see their transgression at the time. Teshuva is something you should do. THat doesn’t mean it is something that is done.

(and they probably were aware of their transgression when Moses ground up the gold and made the men responsbile drink it).

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

One more point. It is quite possible they did not see their transgression at the time. Teshuva is something you should do. THat doesn’t mean it is something that is done.

(and they probably were aware of their transgression when Moses ground up the gold and made the men responsbile drink it).

To be fair, I was going to say something similar.

In other words, it seemed as though Moses’ plea before God lessened the pentalty so that, like Abraham before, only those who who were guitly of the transgression were actually punished by God.

At the very least, Joshua and some others didn’t seem to be fully aware of the revelry that was on-going in some parts of the camp…

When Joshua heard the noise of the people shouting, he said to Moses, “There is the sound of war in the camp.”

And, not much later, when Moses actually sees what’s going on, he apparently reacts in the following way…

Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the LORD, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

So, in a sense, it seems as though Moses’ petition before God lessened the full extent of the original punishment that was going to be levied against them-- and instead God allowed for only those who actually engaged in the activcity to be ‘removed’ from the camp by the sword.

Nonetheless, Aaron’s own actions seem to be rather deplorable, kind of cowardly to some extent. And later we do see Moses once again specifically petitioning on the behalf of Araron, effectively saving Aaron from the Lord’s wrath too.

One thing that I’m curious about is that if the person who transgressed God made an effort for atonement, was this considered a viable reason for them to avoid punishment?

I ask because the Mosaic law seems to proscribe many diffferent kinds of actions necessary for his forgiveness to be manifested from God. And yet it seems as though Moses’ direct and personal petitions before God were essentially more effective than the Law he himself gave from the Lord’s own hands.

If so, truly Moses was a great prophet before God.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

There is also the concept of “Tikun Olam” – Repairing the world through acts of kindness, Teshuva, Charity, and generally obeying Torah.

I have to admit that I’ve never heard of this before. More specifically, I’ve never heard of the the Jewish name for this even though I am aware of Jewish desires to help the world through loving humanitarian efforts.

If the link I provided explains it fairly, in the case of Moses petitioning before God on behalf of Aaron, would this be considered an act of Teshuva or Tikun Olam or a little of both?

Furthermore, can these actions be applied by proxy on behalf of the gentiles too?

In other words, since gentiles are in the world, and since the gentiles are certainly blessed by the knowledge that the Israelites had, would an Israelite’s petition/actions on behalf of the gentile nations/peoples be considered a kind of Tikun Olam before God?

If so, would the messiah (or, more specifically, the messianic age) be able to do this on a global scale for the gentile nations?

Valke2:

It is true that we believe that we collectivly have the power to do this. And that even if we don’t, we are still obligated to act as if we do.

That’s actually a very good maxim to go by in my opinion.

Valke2:

If I understand your question, you are you asking how could the God say he would destroy the Jewish people if they were not given an opportunity to engage in Teshuva?

Yes. That was what I was getting at.

Valke2:

That’s a good question. I’m not sure I have the answer, except to say that we believe that we can lessen the harshness of God’s decree through prayer, repentence (Teshuva) and charity. Moses pleading on behalf of the nation of Israel could be an example of prayer.

I agree. I will also admit, however, that Moses’ words were highly logical too. In fact, what he said was so extremely true…

"O LORD, why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people.

…that one almost has to wonder why God would need Moses to say this to him if God already knows the future.

Even from my own Christian perspective I’m somewhat puzzled by these conversations at times.

Valke2:

There’s also a difference in Judaism between individual transgressions and national transgressions. With a national transgression, the people are punished, whether or not there are good individuals who are part of the people. The example at Sinai would be one of a national transgression in which God seemed ready to destroy the people (a troubling story for me). More later.

It will be interesting to read.

In the meantime, what about international transgressions done by the gentile nations?

Jonah went out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city.

Then the LORD God provided a vine and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the vine.

But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the vine so that it withered.

When the sun rose, God provided a scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah’s head so that he grew faint.

He wanted to die, and said, “It would be better for me to die than to live.”

But God said to Jonah, “Do you have a right to be angry about the vine?”

“I do,” he said. “I am angry enough to die.”

But the LORD said, "You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight.

But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well.

Should I not be concerned about that great city?"

I find this to be one of the most excellent unanswered questions found within the Hebrew Scriptures. I think it pertains to the original discussion we were having in regards to God’s concern for the gentile nations.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Top o’ the boker (Hebrew for “morning”) to you!

Lessee here…

Valke2:

But I don’t think that means that water symbolizes gentiles.

That’s cause it doesn’t.

Valke2:

It is also a way to prepare the heart and mind for prayer. Also public way to declare your acceptance of judaism. When I was referring to the symbology of water in my previous post, I was thinking of the the creation story, the story of the flood, parting of the sea… examples of where God imposes order (or creates chaos) through the control of water.

The waters of the mikveh are spiritual amniotic fluid. The convert emerging from them has been reborn, a new person, new life, clean, pure. I dunked both of Da Boyz (I wore a bathing suit & a t-shirt) while the dayanim (rabbis who are members of a rabbinical court) observed. I got such a rush & felt so privileged!

Valke2:

1. The Messiah will not usher all people of the world into the Jewish faith. This is not a general belief of Judaism…Regarding salvation or redemption, the messaniac age of peace and all believing in God will not necessarily be the result of anything the Messiah does, but will rather be a sign that he is the Messiah. You have to remember that the Messiah will not be a divine being according to Jews. He will be a man. A man, in judasim, would not have the power to redeem the world. That would have to come from God.

Correct on all counts.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Thank you stillsmallvoice.

You’re welcome!
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

PS: As a side note, I think part of my confusion is simply due to my not understanding Judaism from a distinctly Jewish perspective. I readilly admit that, as a Christian, I tend to see symbolism that you and Valke2 may not agree with me about.

Having said that, however, perhaps a part of my confusion is also due to the different schools of thought within Judaism.

jewfaq.org/toc.htm should be very helpful in this regard.

Valke2:

I don’t know who stillsmallvoice is going to answer this (great screenname), but I think there is probably at least two views of this within the orthodox community. Whether the Messiah will actually rebuild the Temple or whether it will be built in his time, etc. The bottom line is that all these things will happen and he will be a leader of the Jewish people.

Many of our sources are not altogether clear. Like Maimonedes says (see my previous post), we should wait and believe.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

So, if I’m understanding this correctly, the promised messiah will not necessarilly bring all peoples into the Jewish faith. Rather, with each peoples, according to their own righteous knowledge of God, all people will be blessed with the coming of the messiah?

Something like this!
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Again, as you know, I do believe that Jesus is the messiah.

Really?! We wouldn’t have guessed!

About Lot & teshuva, Lot didn’t do teshuva, God saved him in Abraham’s merit, not his own. God had other reasons for sparing Lot. Lot fascinates me (really!); I posted about him at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=50323&highlight=Sodom. Whaddya think?
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

In other words, since gentiles are in the world, and since the gentiles are certainly blessed by the knowledge that the Israelites had, would an Israelite’s petition/actions on behalf of the gentile nations/peoples be considered a kind of Tikun Olam before God?

I suppose so.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

If so, would the messiah…be able to do this on a global scale for the gentile nations?

I suppose so.

Our Sages say that we’re still paying for the Golden Calf (& the sin of the spies) and that every ill that happens to every Jew everywhere is, in part, an installment payment for these two whopper national sins.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

In the meantime, what about international transgressions done by the gentile nations?

See Amos’ famous prophecies against the nations: Amos 1:3-2:3.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

I find this to be one of the most excellent unanswered questions found within the Hebrew Scriptures.

The text doesn’t pecify an answer because the answer is obvious. We read Jonah during afternoon prayers on Yom Kippur (next Monday; see jewfaq.org/holiday4.htm) to teach us both about repentance (the people of Nineveh, God saw their actions) and that God cares for his non-Jewish children as well.

Be well!

ssv

 

[Valke2]

… Mosaic law seems to proscribe many diffferent kinds of actions necessary for his forgiveness to be manifested from God. And yet it seems as though Moses’ direct and personal petitions before God were essentially more effective than the Law he himself gave from the Lord’s own hands.

If so, truly Moses was a great prophet before God.

Just a technical point: Moses had not yet delivered the law to the people.

Going off on a bit of a tangent… Moses is considered the greatest of prophets for a number of reasons. Here’s one I remember. (think its a midrash or a combo of midrashes (midrashim?). stillsmall will know.)
When God told Noah what was going to happen, Noah listened to God and did everything He commanded. After the waters receded, Noah wept and asked GOd why he had done this. God essentially said, “Now you ask? Where were your objections before the Flood?”

Abraham did better, arguing with Hashem over His decree to destroy Sodom. (But where was this concern for the innocent when God told him to sacrifice his son?).

Moses, however, not only pled for the life of his people, but offered his own life in their stead.

 

[inJESUS]

a question please! how do Jews regard the Torah? as the literal word of God or as some kind of literal + metaphoric? in other words, everything written in it did in fact happen or things can be taken metaphorically to reveal a message? for example, Jacob wrestling with God. thx

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Just a technical point: Moses had not yet delivered the law to the people.

Going off on a bit of a tangent… Moses is considered the greatest of prophets for a number of reasons. Here’s one I remember. (think its a midrash or a combo of midrashes (midrashim?). stillsmall will know.)
When God told Noah what was going to happen, Noah listened to God and did everything He commanded. After the waters receded, Noah wept and asked GOd why he had done this. God essentially said, “Now you ask? Where were your objections before the Flood?”

Abraham did better, arguing with Hashem over His decree to destroy Sodom. (But where was this concern for the innocent when God told him to sacrifice his son?).

Moses, however, not only pled for the life of his people, but offered his own life in their stead.

So then if Moses was able to do this, wouldn’t the messiah, a man who is to be greater than Noah, Abraham and Moses, be able to draw in the gentile nations too?

Again, I’m not arguing for Jesus being the Christ. Neither am I trying to convert you.

It’s just that I thought I did understand at least some distinctly Jewish concepts of the messiah-- and it seemed to me that this link with the gentile nations was going to be a role that he would perform when ushering/signalling the coming of the Messianic Age to Come.

Apparently I was wrong.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

inJesus:

a question please! how do Jews regard the Torah? as the literal word of God or as some kind of literal + metaphoric? in other words, everything written in it did in fact happen or things can be taken metaphorically to reveal a message? for example, Jacob wrestling with God. thx

Yes.



First, about a “literal reading” of the Tanakh. I don’t think that any two people could agree on a “literal reading” of, say, Genesis (certainly mine, as an orthodox Jew and based on the original Hebrew, will probably differ in many particulars from that of a fundamentalist Protestant, based on the KJV); such a thing is inherently subjective and based on our own idiosyncrasies, psychological/emotional/spiritual baggage and personal it-seems-to-me’s. Thus, we should be very leery of basing beliefs and/or arguments on a “literal reading” of the scriptures. Those who do insist on a strict, narrow, “literal” interpretation of this or that section of scripture are, I believe, forcing it into a literary and spiritual strait-jacket entirely of their own devising that does no justice to the scriptures…

So, that being said, how do I, the orthodox Jew, view the Torah? Well, of course, I believe that it (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) is the literal word of God as He revealed it to Moses our Teacher. We believe that the Torah can be understood/appreciated/interpreted on any of four general levels ranging from that which is most in accord with a close reading of the (original Hebrew!!!) text, to the metaphorical, to the most rarefied and esoteric (the grasp of which is waaay beyond most of us). Who is to say which chapter and verse of Genesis is to be best understood or appreciated on which level? Moreover, our Sages say that the Torah is like a diamond with many facets, each with its own brilliance, each offering a different perspective from which to behold the wondrous jewel.

Lastly, I would humbly argue that we are grasping at trees & missing the forest. What is more important, (sterile?) debates over whether Genesis proves/supports or disproves/opposes this or that theory of creation or evolution, or whether the Flood “really happened” or discussing, studying and seeking to internalize its sublime moral, ethical and spiritual truths (such as befit the word of God)?

I heard a story that Karl Barth (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Barth) once gave a lecture on Genesis 3 at the University of Chicago. When it came time for the question and answer portion, a student spoke up and said “Dr. Barth, you don’t really believe snakes could talk do you?” Barth replied, “I could care less whether or not snakes could talk. What I’m interested in is what the snake said.” Boo-ya!

I’ll add one more thing. It always gets me how some religious folk, usually of a more fundamentalist bent, treat the scriptures as if they were some kind of adult version of a first grade reader, i.e. with everything very simply/simplistically laid out & spelled out, no depth, no use of simile, metaphor & allegory, no layers of meaning, and with shallow, uncomplex characters who never have mixed motives. This is not the Jewish view at all! We see the Tanakh as possessing limitless depth, a rich, oftentimes allegorical & metaphorical, language that lends itself to a multiplicity of interpretations (within limits) and a vast reservoir of multi-layered meaning. The characters are complex & not made out of cardboard.

Be well!

ssv

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Really?! We wouldn’t have guessed!

Again, to be clear, I’m not arguing for Jesus being the Christ. Neither am I trying to convert you or Valke2. The reason why I continue to mention this is specifically to let you know the perspective I’m coming from so as to not cause confusion or harsh feeling when I ask the questions I ask.

In regards to the waters symbolizing the gentile nations, I honestly thought this was a symbolism that Talmudic writers had actually used before. In other words, I didn’t think this was a symbolism that later Christian writers superimposed over the Hebrew text.

And, to be fair, I still think this is actually the case and I’ll do a search later on tonight to see if I can find the text from the Jewish sages I had in mind when making this claim.

In the meantime, when one looks at the creation story of the waters on the earth, the Noahic laws after the waters cover the earth, the laws of cleansing and purification by water given by Moses after the Israelites pass through the waters of the earth, and the concept of the mikvah where the world’s natural bodies of water – its oceans, rivers, wells, and spring-fed lakes – are all mikvahs in their most primal form, it seems clear from the Herbew Scriptures alone that this symbolism is highly present within Jewish thinking.

In other words, in all these cases, when the people are brought forth from the waters, the mikvah’s unparalleled function lies in its power of transformation, its ability to effect metamorphosis. In many ways mikvah is the threshold separating the unholy from the holy, but it is even more. The mikvah also apparently personifies, as you’ve alluded to, both the womb and the grave; the portals to life and afterlife in a kind of bebirth. And in the case of the gentile convert to Judaism, this is most dramatic. The individual who descends into the mikvah as a gentile actually emerges from beneath its waters as a Jew.

For the record, I’m gathering my information from the following website. So I’m really trying hard to explain this concept that I thought Jewish people held from my own understanding of Judaism as relayed by Jewish people-- not Christians who have superimposed Christian thoughts onto the Hebrew text.

Likewise, in regards to the coming of the messiah, it’s just that I thought I did understand at least some distinctly Jewish concepts of the messiah-- and it seemed to me that this link with the gentile nations was going to be a role that he would perform when ushering/signalling the coming of the Messianic Age to Come.

When I read the following Reform/Conservative website, I read the following…

The Talmud asks what gives the community the right to convert a child who is too young to consent. The answer is based on the rabbinic principle zachin leadam shelo befanav, we can do something to someone’s benefit without their permission. Becoming a Jew is considered to the child’s benefit. Technically the child has the right upon reaching the age of bar or bat mitzvah to reject the conversion or reaffirm it. That is why it is so important to give an adopted child a strong sense of Jewish identity and a good Jewish education, with the hope that he or she will continue to reaffirm it.

Consequenty, it seems to me that Moses’ plea before God was an act of zachin leadam shelo befanav on his part-- and not necessarilly an act of teshuva on the part of those who transgressed God’s will.

Admittedly, I could be wrong about this. And that’s why I’m asking these questions. Valke2 seems to have created this thread specifically for the intentions of clarifying any confusion that non-Jews might have concerning Judaism-- so I thought I’d participate.

I’ll look for the writings of the Jewish sages later after work (I’m feeling better now). But, in the meantime, I hope this is ok to continue the discussion further?

 

[inJESUS]

thx appreciated Stillsmallvoice

 

[Valke2]

a question please! how do Jews regard the Torah? as the literal word of God or as some kind of literal + metaphoric? in other words, everything written in it did in fact happen or things can be taken metaphorically to reveal a message? for example, Jacob wrestling with God. thx

The answers is yes, yes and yes, depending on what jew you ask. (or no, no and no).

The question demands a detailed answer that I can’t give right now, an

 

[IHS]

A question please. How is it that that you do not see the prophecies of Jesus death in Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53?

 

[Valke2]

So then if Moses was able to do this, wouldn’t the messiah, a man who is to be greater than Noah, Abraham and Moses, be able to draw in the gentile nations too?

Again, I’m not arguing for Jesus being the Christ. Neither am I trying to convert you.

It’s just that I thought I did understand at least some distinctly Jewish concepts of the messiah-- and it seemed to me that this link with the gentile nations was going to be a role that he would perform when ushering/signalling the coming of the Messianic Age to Come.

Apparently I was wrong.

Who said the Messiah is going to be greater than Moses? We’ll have to wait and see what he does. I’m not saying he won’t have a link with the gentile nations. But whether that link will simply be that all the nations acknowledge and worship the true God, or something additional, we don’t know.

 

[Valke2]

Hi all!

Yes.



First, about a “literal reading” of the Tanakh. I don’t think that any two people could agree on a “literal reading” of, say, Genesis (certainly mine, as an orthodox Jew and based on the original Hebrew, will probably differ in many particulars from that of a fundamentalist Protestant, based on the KJV); such a thing is inherently subjective and based on our own idiosyncrasies, psychological/emotional/spiritual baggage and personal it-seems-to-me’s. Thus, we should be very leery of basing beliefs and/or arguments on a “literal reading” of the scriptures. Those who do insist on a strict, narrow, “literal” interpretation of this or that section of scripture are, I believe, forcing it into a literary and spiritual strait-jacket entirely of their own devising that does no justice to the scriptures…

So, that being said, how do I, the orthodox Jew, view the Torah? Well, of course, I believe that it (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) is the literal word of God as He revealed it to Moses our Teacher. We believe that the Torah can be understood/appreciated/interpreted on any of four general levels ranging from that which is most in accord with a close reading of the (original Hebrew!!!) text, to the metaphorical, to the most rarefied and esoteric (the grasp of which is waaay beyond most of us). Who is to say which chapter and verse of Genesis is to be best understood or appreciated on which level? Moreover, our Sages say that the Torah is like a diamond with many facets, each with its own brilliance, each offering a different perspective from which to behold the wondrous jewel.

Lastly, I would humbly argue that we are grasping at trees & missing the forest. What is more important, (sterile?) debates over whether Genesis proves/supports or disproves/opposes this or that theory of creation or evolution, or whether the Flood “really happened” or discussing, studying and seeking to internalize its sublime moral, ethical and spiritual truths (such as befit the word of God)?

I heard a story that Karl Barth (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Barth) once gave a lecture on Genesis 3 at the University of Chicago. When it came time for the question and answer portion, a student spoke up and said “Dr. Barth, you don’t really believe snakes could talk do you?” Barth replied, “I could care less whether or not snakes could talk. What I’m interested in is what the snake said.” Boo-ya!

I’ll add one more thing. It always gets me how some religious folk, usually of a more fundamentalist bent, treat the scriptures as if they were some kind of adult version of a first grade reader, i.e. with everything very simply/simplistically laid out & spelled out, no depth, no use of simile, metaphor & allegory, no layers of meaning, and with shallow, uncomplex characters who never have mixed motives. This is not the Jewish view at all! We see the Tanakh as possessing limitless depth, a rich, oftentimes allegorical & metaphorical, language that lends itself to a multiplicity of interpretations (within limits) and a vast reservoir of multi-layered meaning. The characters are complex & not made out of cardboard.

Be well!

ssv

Excellent points. To paraphrase Elle Weisel, Not everything that is true necessarily happened.

 

[Valke2]

Again, to be clear, I’m not arguing for Jesus being the Christ. Neither am I trying to convert you or Valke2. The reason why I continue to mention this is specifically to let you know the perspective I’m coming from so as to not cause confusion or harsh feeling when I ask the questions I ask.

In regards to the waters symbolizing the gentile nations, I honestly thought this was a symbolism that Talmudic writers had actually used before. In other words, I didn’t think this was a symbolism that later Christian writers superimposed over the Hebrew text.

And, to be fair, I still think this is actually the case and I’ll do a search later on tonight to see if I can find the text from the Jewish sages I had in mind when making this claim.

In the meantime, when one looks at the creation story of the waters on the earth, the Noahic laws after the waters cover the earth, the laws of cleansing and purification by water given by Moses after the Israelites pass through the waters of the earth, and the concept of the mikvah where the world’s natural bodies of water – its oceans, rivers, wells, and spring-fed lakes – are all mikvahs in their most primal form, it seems clear from the Herbew Scriptures alone that this symbolism is highly present within Jewish thinking.

In other words, in all these cases, when the people are brought forth from the waters, the mikvah’s unparalleled function lies in its power of transformation, its ability to effect metamorphosis. In many ways mikvah is the threshold separating the unholy from the holy, but it is even more. The mikvah also apparently personifies, as you’ve alluded to, both the womb and the grave; the portals to life and afterlife in a kind of bebirth. And in the case of the gentile convert to Judaism, this is most dramatic. The individual who descends into the mikvah as a gentile actually emerges from beneath its waters as a Jew.

For the record, I’m gathering my information from the following website. So I’m really trying hard to explain this concept that I thought Jewish people held from my own understanding of Judaism as relayed by Jewish people-- not Christians who have superimposed Christian thoughts onto the Hebrew text.

Likewise, in regards to the coming of the messiah, it’s just that I thought I did understand at least some distinctly Jewish concepts of the messiah-- and it seemed to me that this link with the gentile nations was going to be a role that he would perform when ushering/signalling the coming of the Messianic Age to Come.

When I read the following Reform/Conservative website, I read the following…

Consequenty, it seems to me that Moses’ plea before God was an act of zachin leadam shelo befanav on his part-- and not necessarilly an act of teshuva on the part of those who transgressed God’s will.

Admittedly, I could be wrong about this. And that’s why I’m asking these questions. Valke2 seems to have created this thread specifically for the intentions of clarifying any confusion that non-Jews might have concerning Judaism-- so I thought I’d participate.

I’ll look for the writings of the Jewish sages later after work (I’m feeling better now). But, in the meantime, I hope this is ok to continue the discussion further?

I think we need to clarify at least one thing. Moses actions at Sinai do not constitute Teshuva. First, because one can not do Teshuva for another and second, Moses had not done anything (that we are aware of) that would require Teshuva at that point. Moses argued on behalf of the Jewish people. I’m not sure we need to put his actions in a specific category, although “prayer” would come closest, I think.

I like what you have to say about the use of water in Genesis. I just don’t see how you analysis leads to the conclusion that water is a symbol for gentiles.