Judaism

[SimonneMDS]

Hi Baby

Shutting down for the night

 

[whosebob]

JMJ + OBT​

Valke2, peace be to you! First of all, my question to follow is asked in all sincerity and is not intended to “stir the pot,” even thought it might just do that …

Have you ever read or thought about reading either of these two books?

Before the Dawn
Rabbi Israel Zolli, Chief Rabbi of Rome during World War II, reflects on his journey to Jesus in the Catholic Church.

The Nazarene
Rabbi Israel Zolli, Chief Rabbi of Rome during World War II, shows how the Nazarene is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah, the Promised Messiah of Israel. Fr. John Hardon, S.J., wrote the introduction for this Jubilee edition.

Rabbi Zolli witnessed first-hand the tremendous effort made and risks taken by Pope Pius XII in service to the Jews being persecuted during World War II. The impact this witness had on him and his gratefulness to the Pope apparently helped move him along in his conversion to the Catholic Faith. I wasn’t sure if and how Rabbi Zolli’s conversion and his written words are reflected upon among Conservative Jews of today; can you offer any insights?

In the Hearts of Yeshua and Miriam.

IC XC NIKA

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

sigh

Sorry Valke2. I’ll have to come back to this thread tomorrow night. I got caught on a few other threads.

 

[Valke2]

This is where Abraham had it all over us and proof of his FAITH in HASHEM …
Genesis Ch 22 vs 4-5
On the third day , Abraham raised his eyes and perceived the place from afar . And Abraham said to his young men "Stay here by yourselves with the donkey while I and the lad will go younder ;** we **will worship and we will return to you . Abraham had absolutely total faith that he and his son would return … So Abraham did not have to be concerned about the innocent person here. Thank you .

Well, he couldn’t exactly say “stay here and I’ll return by myself.” I don’t think that is a good proof of his absolute faith.
We should note that there is nothing in Torah that suggests either Rebecaa – his wife – or Issac ever spoke to him again after the binding. In fact, it is God who gives Issac the blessing, something that should have been done by the Abraham. God steps in as a surrogate father, in a sense.

 

[Valke2]

JMJ + OBT​

Valke2, peace be to you! First of all, my question to follow is asked in all sincerity and is not intended to “stir the pot,” even thought it might just do that …

Have you ever read or thought about reading either of these two books?

Before the Dawn
Rabbi Israel Zolli, Chief Rabbi of Rome during World War II, reflects on his journey to Jesus in the Catholic Church.

The Nazarene
Rabbi Israel Zolli, Chief Rabbi of Rome during World War II, shows how the Nazarene is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah, the Promised Messiah of Israel. Fr. John Hardon, S.J., wrote the introduction for this Jubilee edition.

Rabbi Zolli witnessed first-hand the tremendous effort made and risks taken by Pope Pius XII in service to the Jews being persecuted during World War II. The impact this witness had on him and his gratefulness to the Pope apparently helped move him along in his conversion to the Catholic Faith. I wasn’t sure if and how Rabbi Zolli’s conversion and his written words are reflected upon among Conservative Jews of today; can you offer any insights?

In the Hearts of Yeshua and Miriam.

IC XC NIKA

I never heard of either of those books. I don’t see them making my reading list any time soon . And I have my own views on the Church’s record during WWII. But I’ll admit that my views have been influenced by James Carroll’s “Constantine’s Sword”. and a relatively small amount of research I did on my own.

 

[Valke2]

JMJ + OBT​

Rabbi Zolli witnessed first-hand the tremendous effort made and risks taken by Pope Pius XII in service to the Jews being persecuted during World War II. The impact this witness had on him and his gratefulness to the Pope apparently helped move him along in his conversion to the Catholic Faith. I wasn’t sure if and how Rabbi Zolli’s conversion and his written words are reflected upon among Conservative Jews of today; can you offer any insights?

In the Hearts of Yeshua and Miriam.

IC XC NIKA

I found this about Rabbi Zolli:

Although Pope Pius XII took great pride in baptizing the former chief rabbi of Rome, the Catholic Church could hardly consider “Zolli” a pious convert. This is because Rabbi Israel Zoller’s apostasy to Catholicism had little to do with any spiritual conviction or theological satisfaction he found in the Roman church. Rather, it was the result of his ostracism and banishment after the Holocaust by the survivors of the Italian Jewish community, whom he callously abandoned during the war when he hid in the Vatican while fleeing the Nazis.

At the beginning of September 1943, when the Germans entered Rome, he abandoned the community and took refuge in the Vatican. At the end of the hostilities he reappeared to assume his position as rabbi, but was rejected by the community because of his unworthy behavior at the time of the greatest danger. On February 14, 1945, he converted to Catholicism, taking the name of Eugenio Maria (in homage to Pope Pius XII) and returned to the Vatican. In 1949 he was professor of Semitic epigraphy and Hebrew at the University of Rome. He was the author of a large number of works, especially of biblical interpretation, Jewish history, liturgy, and talmudic literature. Among his works are Israele (“Israel,” 1935), L’ebraismo (“Judaism,” 1953), and autobiographical reflections entitled Before the Dawn (1954). His translation of the tractate Berakhot was published by a Catholic publishing house (1968).

 

[Valke2]

Hi mom.

PS. Most Jewish people that I know of interpret this passage as the Jewish people themselves if I recall correctly.

Yes. Basically, Isaiah 53 is referring to Israel (according to Jews) in every place that Christians claim he is referring to the Messiah/Jesus.

 

[SimonneMDS]

There is one thing I do know about Abraham .If he thought his son would not have returned with him … he would not have lied .Abraham is and was **not a liar **. So when he said **WE will return … **He meant We will **return **.The trouble with a lot of people is they don’t see the simple truth in a lot of things.
You read with your eyes and not with your spirit .
try reading with both .

Well, he couldn’t exactly say “stay here and I’ll return by myself.” I don’t think that is a good proof of his absolute faith.
We should note that there is nothing in Torah that suggests either Rebecaa – his wife – or Issac ever spoke to him again after the binding. In fact, it is God who gives Issac the blessing, something that should have been done by the Abraham. God steps in as a surrogate father, in a sense.

 

[Valke2]

There is one thing I do know about Abraham .If he thought his son would not have returned with him … he would not have lied .Abraham is and was **not a liar **. So when he said **WE will return … **He meant We will **return **.The trouble with a lot of people is they don’t see the simple truth in a lot of things.
You read with your eyes and not with your spirit .
try reading with both .

Abraham tells his wife to lie (although the commentary tries to rationalize it) when he has her tell people she is his sister. I read with my eyes and spirit, thanks.

 

[Valke2]

Abraham tells his wife to lie (although the commentary tries to rationalize it) when he has her tell people she is his sister. I read with my eyes and spirit, thanks.

Also, the Torah teaches that sometimes small white lies are permissible. We learn this because Hashem Himself tells a lie through omission. (For 2 points, name the verse).

 

[SimonneMDS]

Now Valke
You know as well as I do that Abraham did not tell Sarah to lie … He told her to tell everyone that she was his sister … And Valke …was Abraham not her brother ? Yes he was … I fail to see where the lie is here … You know we are held accountable as to how we pass on these words… and GOD help us is we lead one person to confusion … I never want to do that .
Abraham was Sarahs’ sister …
I have to go out this morning … will be back later

Abraham tells his wife to lie (although the commentary tries to rationalize it) when he has her tell people she is his sister. I read with my eyes and spirit, thanks.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

We’re a little ahead on the Shabbat cooking so I’m stealing a few minutes on the computer.

Hmm…

About Rabbi Zolli…

My colleague of a month (we’ve been friends for 15+ years)'s wife is from Rome. Her father (now retired) was, during his rabbinical career, Chief Rabbi of Venice, head of kashrut (the noun; kosher is the adjective) at the Italian Rabbinate, principal of the Jewish school in Rome, etc. Rabbi Zolli is remembered very, very, very poorly (given CAF’s rules on polite discourse, I am understating things here) among the Italian Jewish community.

I hope this doesn’t offend anyone (God forbid!), because I know it’s going to sound harsh, but…Not for nothing did Dante place not murderers, not rapists, but traitors in the lowest circle of Hell. A sane Jew who (God forbid!) knowingly, willingly, and under no compulsion whatsoever, abjures Judaism for another faith is a blackhearted rogue & a traitor who betrays his people and his God. I would pray that they repent but barring that I wish them such ill and suffering as God may see fit to bring upon them. Why am I reacting with such vitriol? Our Sages say that, “All Israel is responsible one for the other.” We Jews are a small people; we constitute one organic whole. When a Jew abjures his faith, it is like having a limb ripped off or an organ torn out. It is a raw wound that never heals & which hurts more than you can possibly imagine. We all suffer, we are all diminished thereby. Thus, to those who knowingly inflict this on us, I react as I have.

Judaism is a club that once admitted into (either by birth or orthodox conversion), you can never leave. A Jew who thinks that he/she can absolve him/herself of his/her covenental obligations by, say, adopting Christianity or Islam is sorely mistaken. In Ezekiel 20:32-33, God says:

“…and that which comes into your mind shall not be at all; in that you say: We will be as the nations, as the families of the countries, to serve wood and stone. As I live, says the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, will I be king over you;”

One of my rabbis says that, the wood mentioned above refers to the Cross (i.e. Christianity), while the stone refers to the Kaaba (i.e. Islam).

About Abraham…

Our Sages do criticize Abram for lying to Pharoah in an effort to save his life and then repeating the same stunt a little while later with Abimelech, the Philistine King of Gerar, in Genesis 20:1-11. Look at that second incident:

And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the land of the South, and dwelt between Kadesh and Shur; and he sojourned in Gerar. And Abraham said of Sarah his wife: ‘She is my sister.’ And Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah. But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him: ‘Behold, you shall die, because of the woman whom you have taken; for she is a man’s wife.’ Now Abimelech had not come near her; and he said: ‘Lord, will You slay even a righteous nation? Said he not himself unto me: She is my sister? and she, even she herself said: He is my brother. In the simplicity of my heart and the innocency of my hands have I done this.’ And God said unto him in the dream: ‘Yea, I know that in the simplicity of your heart you have done this, and I also withheld you from sinning against Me. Therefore suffered I you not to touch her. Now therefore restore the man’s wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live; and if you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.’ And Abimelech rose early in the morning, and called all his servants, and told all these things in their ears; and the men were sore afraid. Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him: ‘What have you done unto us? and wherein have I sinned against you, that you have brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? You have done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.’ And Abimelech said unto Abraham: ‘What did you see, that you have done this thing?’ And Abraham said: ‘Because I thought: Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife’s sake.’

(cont.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)

What did Abraham mean when he said the underlined portion? The Philistines (like the Egyptians) had a magnificent culture, as archaeology well attests. But Abraham knew that even a highly advanced & developed culture is just a facade, a jerry-rigged veneer, if it is not built on, “the fear of God”, that its civilization is “a mile wide but [only] an inch deep” & can crumble in an instant if it is not built on a deep & thoroughgoing awareness of the Divine source of all morality, i.e. on “the fear of God.” Abraham knew that (as one of my rabbis writes), “However, when politeness is not followed by Awareness of God, it is no more than the mask of hypocrisy.” Like King Solomon put it (Proverbs 9:10), “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” We can certainly apply this lesson from the second time Abraham pulled this stunt back to the first time. He was afraid that the ungodly, pagan barbarism of Egypt would assert itself & that Pharoah would be tempted to kill him and take Sarah.

Did Abraham do something here that he shouldn’t have? Should have he trusted more in God? Probably, on both counts. But, as our eminent 19th century Sage, Rabbi Shimshon Raphael Hirsch (us-israel.org/jsource/biography/Hirsch.html) writes:

"The Torah is not an ‘anthology of paragons.’ It relates events not because they are worthy of emulation but simply because they took place.

The Torah does not attempt to hide from us the faults, errors and weaknesses of our great men and precisely thereby it places the stamp of credibility upon the happenings it relates. The fact that we are told about their faults and weaknesses does not detract from our great men; indeed, it adds to their stature and makes their life stories even more instructive. Had they all been portrayed to us as models of perfection, we would have believed that they had been endowed with a higher nature not given to us to attain. Had they been presented to us as free of human passions and inner conflicts, their nature would seem to us merely the result of a loftier predisposition, not a product of their personal merit, and certainly no model we could ever hope to emulate. Take, for instance, the humility of Moses. If we did not know that he was also capable of flying into a rage, this humility would seem to us an inborn trait not within our capacity to emulate. It is precisely his outburst (“Here now, you rebels!” Num. 20:10) that lends to his humility its true greatness, for it shows us his humility as the product of a mighty labor of self-control and self-refinement which we should all emulate because it is within our capacity to do so. Also, the Torah relates no sin or error without telling us also of its consequences, great or small…We must never attempt to whitewash the spiritual and moral heroes of our past. They are not in need of our apologies, nor would they tolerate such attempts on our part."

The lesson here is that if Abraham, whom we believe to have been on such a high spiritual level that such as we can scarcely even imagine, could fall prey to such vices, how much moreso do we, who are not nearly as great as he was, have to be doubly and triply careful lest we fall into the same traps.

Personally, I have always thought that this brave old man, Abraham, was truly the greatest revolutionary the world has ever known, having been chosen by God to be the vehicle for introducing the idea of ethical monotheism and belief in the One God into the world.

Our Sages note that Abraham’s life, from the moment God decided to introduce Himself to him until his death, was one of constant trial. The late Professor Nehama Leibovitz (jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/nleib.html) notes, in her Studies in Bereshit/Genesis:

Our Sage, Rabbi Jonathan, offers the following analogy:

"A potter does not test cracked jars which cannot be struck even once without breaking. What does He test? Good jars which will not break even if struck many times. Similarly, the Holy One, blessed be He, does not try the wicked but the righteous, as it said (Psalms 11:5): “The Lord tries the righteous…”

Yet, as Genesis testifies, Abraham passed every test & withstood every trial. Thus, in Isaiah 51:1-2, God urges us:

Hearken to Me, you who follow after righteousness, you who seek the Lord; look unto the rock whence you were hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence you were digged. Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah who bore you; for when he was but one I called him, and I blessed him, and made him many.

Be well!

ssv

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

There is one thing I do know about Abraham .If he thought his son would not have returned with him … he would not have lied .Abraham is and was **not a liar **. So when he said **WE will return … **He meant We will **return **.The trouble with a lot of people is they don’t see the simple truth in a lot of things.
You read with your eyes and not with your spirit .
try reading with both .

Hi mom. Like you, I strongly agree with you that Abraham’s statement “we will return” indicated he had faith in God that his son would return with him.

Our Christian Scriptures in Hebrews 11:17-19 explains it this way…

By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

So, like you, I highly doubt that Abraham was lying about his son returning with him.

But, at the same time, I honestly thought that Abraham did tell a half-truth to Pharaoh concerning his wife. He seems to have omitted certain information specfically for the purpose to deceive, apparently because of her beauty

 

[SimonneMDS]

I try not to put my thoughts into this … but go to the scriptures .
Sarah was Abrahams’ sister … end of dicsussion I hope .

I hope this will end the debate on whether Abraham was lying or not about his wife Sarah. Genesis 20 Vs 11 -18

And Abraham said , "Because I said , There is no fear of God in this place and they will slay me because of my wife .’ **Moreover , she is indeed my sister , my father’s daughter , though not my mothers’ daugher ; and she became my wife . And so it was , when God caused me to wander from my father’s house , I said to her , Let this be your kindness which you shall do for me - to whatever place we come , say of me ; He is my brother .**So Abimelech took flocks and cattle and servants and maidservants and gave to Abraham ; and he returned his wife Sarah to him .
And Abimelech said , Behold my land is before you : settle wherever you see fit . And to Sarah he said , Behold , I have given **your brother **a thousand peices of silver . Behold! Let it be for you an eye-covering for all who are with you ; and to all you will be cindicated .
Abraham prayed to God , and God healed Abimelech , his wife , and his maids , and they were relieved ; for HASHEM had completely restrained every orifice of the household of Abimelech , because of Sarah , the wife of Abraham .

 

[Valke2]

Now Valke
You know as well as I do that Abraham did not tell Sarah to lie … He told her to tell everyone that she was his sister … And Valke …was Abraham not her brother ? Yes he was … I fail to see where the lie is here … You know we are held accountable as to how we pass on these words… and GOD help us is we lead one person to confusion … I never want to do that .
Abraham was Sarahs’ sister …
I have to go out this morning … will be back later

At the very least, it is a lie by omission, by failing to acknowledge that Sara is his wife. The arguement that she was his sister seems to be an “after the fact” commentary.

 

[Valke2]

I try not to put my thoughts into this … but go to the scriptures .
Sarah was Abrahams’ sister … end of dicsussion I hope .

I hope this will end the debate on whether Abraham was lying or not about his wife Sarah. Genesis 20 Vs 11 -18

And Abraham said , "Because I said , There is no fear of God in this place and they will slay me because of my wife .’ **Moreover , she is indeed my sister , my father’s daughter , though not my mothers’ daugher ; and she became my wife . And so it was , when God caused me to wander from my father’s house , I said to her , Let this be your kindness which you shall do for me - to whatever place we come , say of me ; He is my brother .**So Abimelech took flocks and cattle and servants and maidservants and gave to Abraham ; and he returned his wife Sarah to him .
And Abimelech said , Behold my land is before you : settle wherever you see fit . And to Sarah he said , Behold , I have given **your brother **a thousand peices of silver . Behold! Let it be for you an eye-covering for all who are with you ; and to all you will be cindicated .
Abraham prayed to God , and God healed Abimelech , his wife , and his maids , and they were relieved ; for HASHEM had completely restrained every orifice of the household of Abimelech , because of Sarah , the wife of Abraham .

That’s theh worst translation I ever read of that verse. ANd your citation is incorrect.

 

[whosebob]

I have my own views on the Church’s record during WWII. But I’ll admit that my views have been influenced by James Carroll’s “Constantine’s Sword” and a relatively small amount of research I did on my own.

JMJ + OBT​

Valke2, peace be to you. Do you know of Rabbi David Dalin, a Conservative rabbi? Based on his own ongoing research, he became more and more dismayed at what he perceived to be a smear campaign against Pope Pius XII. He decided to do something to help counter this injustice; first he wrote an artice (freely available on-line): A Righteous Gentile: Pope Pius XII and the Jews (pub. 2001); then he wrote an entire book on the subject: The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: Pope Pius XII and His Secret War Against Nazi Germany (pub. 2005). As far as I know, Rabbi Dalin is wholly secure in his Jewish faith and identity, and was motivated by a sense of justice to right the wrongs being inflicted upon the character of a gentile who had done so much to help the persecuted Jews.

As to Constatine’s Sword, if you are inclided to take the author James Carroll seriously as to his claims therein, you should at least give equal time to those who show the book for what it is: : A Review ArticleConstantine’s Sword. You might also be interested in a response to John Cornwell’s book Hitler’s Pope, which was posted on Zenit.org back in 1999: Cornwell’s Pope: “A Nasty Caricature of a Noble and Saintly Man”. The latter is full of some eye-opening facts.

In the Hearts of Yeshua and Miriam.

IC XC NIKA

 

[Valke2]

JMJ + OBT​

Valke2, peace be to you. Do you know of Rabbi David Dalin, a Conservative rabbi? Based on his own ongoing research, he became more and more dismayed at what he perceived to be a smear campaign against Pope Pius XII. He decided to do something to help counter this injustice; first he wrote an artice (freely available on-line): A Righteous Gentile: Pope Pius XII and the Jews (pub. 2001); then he wrote an entire book on the subject: The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: Pope Pius XII and His Secret War Against Nazi Germany (pub. 2005). As far as I know, Rabbi Dalin is wholly secure in his Jewish faith and identity, and was motivated by a sense of justice to right the wrongs being inflicted upon the character of a gentile who had done so much to help the persecuted Jews.

As to Constatine’s Sword, if you are inclided to take the author James Carroll seriously as to his claims therein, you should at least give equal time to those who show the book for what it is: Constantine’s Sword: A Review Article. You might also be interested in a response to John Cornwell’s book Hitler’s Pope, which was posted on Zenit.org back in 1999: Cornwell’s Pope: “A Nasty Caricature of a Noble and Saintly Man”. The latter is full of some eye-opening facts.

In the Hearts of Yeshua and Miriam.

IC XC NIKA

I’m assuming “hitler’s pope” is more radical in its beliefs than “Constantine’s Sword”. I thought COnstantine’s Sword did not exactly attack the Pope as much as it cirticized church actions throughout history.

 

[Valke2]

I’m assuming “hitler’s pope” is more radical in its beliefs than “Constantine’s Sword”. I thought COnstantine’s Sword did not exactly attack the Pope as much as it cirticized church actions throughout history.

I’ll look into “the Myth…”