Judaism

[Valke2]

JMJ + OBT​

First, a piece of constructive criticism: it would probably be best to always provide a link or some kind of indication (e.g. book or magazine name) as to the source from which you obtain such information, for credibility’s sake; and if you’re embarrassed or concerned about revealing your source (unless, of course, we’re talking about a first and last name of a private individual that would be better left out of the discussion; in which case you should indicate that fact at least), then perhpas you shouldn’t post the material to begin with.

Sorry. I figured outreach and Jews for Judaism, and Judaism101 were sources that were used extensively here when discussing Judaism. That may be a result from my discussions in Jewish chat rooms. I’ll cite all sources in the future.

 

[Valke2]

(continued from above)

I have no idea why Rabbi Singer wrote what he wrote about the reasons for Rabbi Zolli’s conversion. But it seems hard to escape that in writing it, he outright invented a lack of “spiritual conviction or theological satisfaction” on the part of Rabbi Zolli. I want to give Rabbi Singer the benefit of the doubt, that is perhaps he based his express judgment on bad information. However, are there no statements in the Torah or Talmud which at least harshly reprimand those who slander their neihbor?

I understand that many Jews may did and may still find it upsetting that another and so prominent a Jew embraced the Christian Faith. But it seems another step altogether to publicly mischaracterize that person’s motives for doing so. I would appreciate your reflections and insight on the same.

With respect, and in the Hearts of Yeshua and Miriam.

IC XC NIKA

Shalom.
I think that the issue for me is that to use such a controversial and figure in the Jewish community to prove the Pope’s actions has little probative value. If I used quotes from the author of “Hitler’s Pope” to show that even Catholics admit that he was complicit in the HOlocaust, you would rightfully be skeptical. Similarly, using Zolli to prove the opposite doesn’t carry much weight with the Jewish community.

As to his conversion, ultimately, his reasons are his own. He would not be the only Jew to question his faith in 1945, that’s for sure.

Also, although you quoted outreach judaism from my prior post, the article that Outreach Judaism quotes from is from the Encyclopedia Judaica. (Vol. 16, Page 1217),

Here is another snippied on Zolli (from a NY Times Article):
On Sept. 17, 1943, a lawyer, probably Ugo Foa, president of the Jewish community, visited the Vatican and was advised to persuade 150 foreign Jews to leave Rome and hide in rural areas. …But the Vatican’s ‘‘Actes’’ record a rumor of Oct. 11 about the imminent arrival of 3,000 SS to search houses in Rome … a priest did visit the 1,259 prisoners on the day after the roundup; … and it was noted that the Holy See was doing ‘‘all that was in its power.’’ Some 250 people were in fact released, though they were mostly non-Jews or people married to Jews. Warnings to Jews in Rome could at least have been circulated by Chief Rabbi Israel Zolli, who several days before the roundup ‘‘disappeared’’ into the Vatican. And why had not Rabbi Zolli first destroyed the vital lists of Jewish households?
query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE4DD1E3EF931A25757C0A961948260&sec=&pagewanted=2

Sidenote: Zolli’s great grandson converted to judasim. At his wedding, the groom made this speech:
Great-grandfather, do you hear these words? I wanted to come here to get married because I wanted to be a ‘repair,’ a tikkun, for your soul. You did not believe that these words would ever come to pass. You apparently thought that Judaism had been destroyed by the Nazi hordes. But you were wrong. I am the proof that you are wrong. I have come back, and since a great part of my returning is because of you, I have brought you back with me. Grandfather, the Eternal One of Israel does not speak falsehood. Grandfather, the nation of Israel lives
israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=6581

One more quote, from a 1945 Time article:

High-ranking Jews bitterly pointed out that Zolli had remained Chief Rabbi just long enough (four years) to assure himself of a sizable pension. He had resigned only two weeks before his baptism, which must have meant that he was taking Catholic instructions while in office. There were also charges that Zolli was pro-Fascist: he had thought kindly of Mussolini; several weeks ago he openly defended a local racist; and —above all—when the Germans were approaching Rome, he had failed to destroy the lists of Jews residing in the ghetto. jcgi.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,792018,00.html

 

[Valke2]

JMJ + OBT​

…

But even then, and even when I’ve otherwise failed in charity and had to apologize for certain remarks during those exchanges, and even when my prayers for their repentance and re-conversion don’t seem to have been answered, I’ve never afterwards “wish[ed] them such ill and suffering as God may see fit to bring upon them.”

But did you ever have friends who were leaders of a large community, and, shortly after 6,000,000 people in the community were murdered for being Jews, publically abandoned Judaism? Remember what was going on in the world when he did this and you can at least understand the reaction of the Jewish world. His actions were viewed as spitting in the face of all those that were so recently martyered for their faith.

 

[Tiny_Montgomery]

ZOli was condemend before his conversion. His conversion was a result (it looks like) of his being rejected by his community because of his behavior in WWII.

This conclusion is refuted by the Time magazine article you linked to. The article notes that Zolli “resigned,” not that he was “condemned,” rejected, or fired prior to his resignation.

The Time article further notes: “High-ranking Jews bitterly pointed out that Zolli had remained Chief Rabbi just long enough (four years) to assure himself of a sizable pension.”

Putting to one side the merit of this accusation, I would simply note that a man who has been condemned or rejected by the community cannot control the timing of his exit to assure himself a pension!

Warnings to Jews in Rome could at least have been circulated by Chief Rabbi Israel Zolli, who several days before the roundup ‘‘disappeared’’ into the Vatican. And why had not Rabbi Zolli first destroyed the vital lists of Jewish households?

Here is a different perspective, taken from an interview with Judith Cabaud, who wrote a biography of Zolli that has not yet been published in English.

In Rome, the majority of Jews thought that both Fascism and Nazism would blow over. After all, the Roman Jews had been in Rome for more than 2,000 years and the present problems seemed nothing in comparison with those that had occurred during the Roman Empire. When Zolli arrived in Rome, it was wartime. The Italians were Hitler’s allies, but there was still no real discrimination against Jews in Italy. However, Zolli knew what was going on in Nazi Germany: he also was certain that Hitler would ultimately occupy Italy and that there would be trouble for Jews.

**In 1941, he tried to warn the Jewish community of Rome. He asked them to destroy the archives of the community members. But no one believed what he said and they did not trust him. Was he not a foreigner? What did he know about the Jews of Rome? **They repeated that they had been there for more than 2,000 years.

In September 1943, the Nazis invaded Rome, and Zolli wanted to immediately destroy all the files and send Jewish people into hiding. The head of the community still refused to do anything, saying it would only alarm the Jewish population. The first thing that happened is that Colonel Kappler wanted to take advantage of the situation for himself and he ordered the community to hand over 50 kg of gold. The ultimatum was: 50 kg or 300 hostages. The Jews managed to assemble 35 kg and a friend of Zolli’s asked Zolli to go to the Vatican to ask for the missing quantity. This was his first contact with the institutional Church.

And from Fr. Klyber’s article, written in 1945:

As Chief Rabbi of Rome, this sincere man had offered himself as hostage to the Nazi forces then occupying the city if they would release several hundred of his fellow Jews.

 

[Tiny_Montgomery]

Remember what was going on in the world when he did this and you can at least understand the reaction of the Jewish world. His actions were viewed as spitting in the face of all those that were so recently martyered for their faith.

From the Time article (which, again, is a contemporaneous account):

He was happy about his conversion, miserable about his apostasy. Asked pale, hollow-cheeked Israele Zolli: “Do you think I love the Jews less because I have become a Catholic?” He covered his face with his hands, then looked up with tear-filled eyes to answer his own question: “No, I shall never stop loving the Jews. I did not compare the Jewish religion to Catholicism and abandon one for the other. This is the greatest tragedy of my life. I slowly, almost imperceptibly, became a Christian and could no longer be a Jew.”

And from Fr. Klyber’s 1945 article (Klyber was himself a convert from Judaism):

As was to be expected, the announcement [of Zolli’s conversion] caused a great stir in Jewish religious circles throughout the world. The Jewish community of Rome tasted gall. Overnight the once venerated, learned rabbi who had offered his life for his “sheep” became to some Jews an ignoramus and to all Jews a heretic and traitor. The synagogue of Rome proclaimed a several-days’ fast in atonement for Zolli’s defection and mourned him as dead, while at the same time they denounced him as a *reschumad *(apostate, one struck by God) and excommunicated him . . . Though to many it looks like frightful bigotry to condemn a man like Zolli, we must yet be wary against hastily condemning the Jews for this. The Catholic Church also excommunicates heretics with severe penalties…

Zolli himself said, “I continue to maintain unchanged all my love for the people of Israel; and in my sorrow for the lot that has befallen them, I shall never stop loving the Jews. I did not abandon the Jews by becoming a Catholic.”…

When a Jew is willing to take such a cross as this as the price of his conversion, he makes his momentous break with the past only from rock-like conviction that he is doing what God wishes him to do, and he is able to do it only by the power of God. This is clear in Zolli’s case, from his defense of his decision.

When the good rabbi was asked why he had given up the synagogue for the Church, he gave an answer that showed he had a keen understanding of his present position: “But I have not given it up. Christianity is the integration of the synagogue. The synagogue was a promise, and Christianity is the fulfillment of that promise. The synagogue pointed to Christianity: Christianity presupposes the synagogue. So you see, one cannot exist without the other. What I converted to was the living Christianity.”

…“Once a Jew always a Jew” is a shibboleth too often quoted by well-meaning Jews as a sort of proof that a Jew cannot in his heart of hearts ever become a Christian.

When Israel Zolli was asked whether he still considered himself a Jew he answered with the same expression, but explained it in its deeply correct significance. “Did Peter, James, John, Matthew, Paul, and hundreds of Hebrews like them cease to be Jews when they followed the Messiah and became Christians? Emphatically, no.”

A Jew who accepts a Messiah today remains just as much a Jew as he would expect to remain if and when he were to accept a Messiah at some distant future coming. In other words, a Jew who accepts Jesus as his Messiah accepts a Jew and himself remains a Jew.

This may sound strange and even heterodox to Catholics who have only a surface knowledge of Jewish prophetic history and Catholic teaching concerning it.

A Jewish convert takes as his Messiah the Jew Jesus, who traces his ancestry back to King David without a break: Can anyone be more Jewish than that?

The convert accepts a Jewish Messiah who proved his mission was from God by doing the hundreds of things the prophet said he would do, chief among them his unquestionable and numerous miracles and his Resurrection from the dead. His miracles are continued and multiplied in his Church even up to the present moment.

Has any Messiah ever done the like: Could any Jew do anything greater to put the seal of God on his teachings?

When a devout Jew becomes a follower of Jesus he changes neither his nationality, which is Hebrew, nor his religion, which is Judaism. Well, then, what does he do? He merely brings his religion to completion, as Zolli pointed out: He plucks the ripe fruit from the tree that was planted by God.

This is why the former rabbi was able to say that he had not given up the synagogue for the Church, that the one could not exist without the other. This is also why he repeated correctly, “Once a Jew, always a Jew.”

 

[Valke2]

This conclusion is refuted by the Time magazine article you linked to. The article notes that Zolli “resigned,” not that he was “condemned,” rejected, or fired prior to his resignation.

Not really. Technically re resigned. But that was after being fired by the Roman Jews and then being reinstated by the ALlied command. Where the community clearly didn’t want him, it is not hard to imagine his reasons for retiring. But I’ll grant you that he may have had other reasons for converting.

 

[Tiny_Montgomery]

Not really. Technically re resigned. But that was after being fired by the Roman Jews and then being reinstated by the ALlied command. Where the community clearly didn’t want him, it is not hard to imagine his reasons for retiring. But I’ll grant you that he may have had other reasons for converting.

I see no assertion either in the articles I linked to or the ones you did that Zolli was fired and then reinstated by the Allied Command.

No, the the evidence in the Time article is quite clear, and, importantly, a contemporaneous report. Zolli resigned of his own volition.

High-ranking Jews bitterly pointed out that Zolli had remained Chief Rabbi just long enough (four years) to assure himself of a sizable pension.

A man who has been condemned or rejected by the community cannot control the timing of his exit to assure himself a pension.

He “had remained” Chief Rabbi until he voluntarily resigned.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

whosebob:

But even then, and even when I’ve otherwise failed in charity and had to apologize for certain remarks during those exchanges, and even when my prayers for their repentance and re-conversion don’t seem to have been answered, I’ve never afterwards “wish[ed] them such ill and suffering as God may see fit to bring upon them.”

What do you mean by that? Are you wishing the apostates from Judaism to suffer in further hope that they might repent? (Which is not off of my mental radar screen, it even has a place in the broader Catholic/Christian framework, e.g. Hebrews 12:5-14.) Or are you wishing them to suffer as outright punishment for their sin of apostasy?

I want, more than anything else in the world, that apostates from Judaism (who remain Jews, mind you) repent & return to our faith & fold. Barring that, I want God to punish them as He sees fit. Apostasy & treason are crimes/sins. I cannpt comment on the reference from Hebrews; it’s not scripture for me and hence is not relevant to my life & beliefs as a Jew.

whosebob:

Further, would you actually be comfortable making such a statement face-to-face, or even via e-mail or telephone, with a Jewish convert to the Catholic Faith?

I’m not at all intertested in initiating such contact but if you would like to set up such an email contact, go ahead. PM me with the details.

What do you think I would possibly want to say to them? Rain fire & brimstone down on them? Not my style and I’m sure they’re well aware of about orthodox Jews feel about apostates. Would I beg/implore them to abjure Catholicism & return to Judaism? No, that would be useless. I like to think that I’m neither a fool nor a fanatic that I go about picking fights I have no chance of winning.

What do you think they would want to say to me? Come see the light & join us? I should hope not. I should hope that they don’t think that my attachment to my Jewish faith is such that I’d consider chucking it all away simply because someone, courtesous & sincere as they may be, using 2,000 year-old arguments that impress us as little now as they did 2,000 years ago, asks me to. (God forbid that it should ever come to this, but my Judaism is something I’d sooner die with than live without.) What benefit do you think could come from such a dialogue? If your answer is “None”, then what possible use could there be in such dialogue?

By the way, my views are not unrepresentative about how other orthodox Jews feel.

whosebob:

But then again, if you were interested in listening, each one would likewise lovingly and carefully explain how in his/her view his Jewish identity had reached its ultimate fulfillment in the embrace of Jesus of Nazareth as Israel’s Messiah and his being incorporated into Christ’s Mystical Body, the Church, by Christian Baptism.

The idea of “Jewish identity reaching its ultimate fulfillment in the embrace of Jesus of Nazareth as Israel’s Messiah and his being incorporated into Christ’s Mystical Body, the Church, by Christian Baptism” is the spiritual equivalent of 2+2=5. It is a rationalization that some Jews might be inclined to see as incredibly condescending & patronizing, regardless of how sincerely & amicably it is proffered.

whosebob:

And even if you remained utterly unconvinced, I’m sure each one would pray for you to grow in your faithfulness to God and His revealed truth.

I can live with this one, sure, no prob’! Faithfulness to God is a general thing that does not belong exclusively to either Jews or Christians. I believe that I am clinging to His revealed truth already.

(cont.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

why is there essentially no strong desire among Jews to share the faith with others as Christians do for example?

To be honest, one thing I’ve always been puzzled by with Judiasm is this apparent non-commital nature when it comes to sharing their faith in God with the gentile nations around them.

A gentile who wants to learn will always be welcomed to come & learn. Ruth clung to Naomi of her own accord without any previous lobbying by Naomi for her to do so. Naomi then attempted 3 times to dissuade Ruth from following her (see Ruth 1:8, 1:11-12 and 1:15). Only when Naomi saw that Ruth was determined & steadfast did she accept her. We learn our approach to seeking converts (partly) from this. We also take our cue vis-a-vis missionizing/accepting converts from Zechariah 8:23.

Thus says the Lord of Hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying: ‘We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’

Notice the dynamic here, who approaches whom.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Is there anything within either the Hebrew Scriptures of the Talmudic writings which addresses how God will bring about this great era of knowledge of God amongst the gentile nations in preparation for the coming of the messiah?

Or is this regarded as simply a mystery within Judiasm that will be accomplished in God’s own time when he is ready to do so?

Beats me!
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

I humbly ask what passages within the Hebrew Scriptures are actually viewed within Judaism as being prophetic of the coming of the messiah?

See jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm#Bible.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

 

[whosebob]

I want, more than anything else in the world, that apostates from Judaism (who remain Jews, mind you) repent & return to our faith & fold. Barring that, I want God to punish them as He sees fit. Apostasy & treason are crimes/sins. I cannpt comment on the reference from Hebrews; it’s not scripture for me and hence is not relevant to my life & beliefs as a Jew.

Peace be to you, stillsmallvoice. God will not punish someone for doing His Holy Will, if in fact his conversion to the Catholic Faith was God’s will for that man, the man’s decision having been made in correspondence with God’s grace. I realize that such is not a possibility according to your beliefs, but I still feel it is important to make the point.

I’m not at all intertested in initiating such contact but if you would like to set up such an email contact, go ahead. PM me with the details.

Such an initiative must be entirely your own, in correspondence with what grace God may give you in that regard. I didn’t mean to suggest that I thought your were interested or should be interested in a conversation with a Jewish convert to the Catholic Faith, but wanted to suggest it as a logical extension of your deep concerns that such apostates repent or suffer God’s wrath.

What do you think I would possibly want to say to them? Rain fire & brimstone down on them? … I should hope that they don’t think that my attachment to my Jewish faith is such that I’d consider chucking it all away simply because someone, courtesous & sincere as they may be, using 2,000 year-old arguments that impress us as little now as they did 2,000 years ago, asks me to … What benefit do you think could come from such a dialogue? If your answer is “None”, then what possible use could there be in such dialogue?

If it’s the will of God for you to have such a conversation, then conform your will to His. If it’s not His will, then don’t. (What are you doing now in these forums?) But pray to discern God’s will, whatever it may be in that regard.

By the way, my views are not unrepresentative about how other orthodox Jews feel.

Thanks for the heads-up.

The idea of “Jewish identity reaching its ultimate fulfillment in the embrace of Jesus of Nazareth as Israel’s Messiah and his being incorporated into Christ’s Mystical Body, the Church, by Christian Baptism” is the spiritual equivalent of 2+2=5. It is a rationalization that some Jews might be inclined to see as incredibly condescending & patronizing, regardless of how sincerely & amicably it is proffered.

I don’t doubt that such a statement or sentiment could be perceived as condescending, patronizing, or even offensive. Nevertheless, it is a conclusion that has been reached by a number of sincere, well-studied, prayerful, God-fearing, and God-loving Jews. St. Edith Stein, pray for us all, Gentiles and Jews, that we might love God with all our hearts, all our souls, all our strength. Jesus is either truly Israel’s Messiah or he wasn’t – there is no middle ground as to the truth of such an assertion.

I can live with this one, sure, no prob’! Faithfulness to God is a general thing that does not belong exclusively to either Jews or Christians. I believe that I am clinging to His revealed truth already.

May Our Lord bless you, stillsmallvoice! May this song of David be in both our mouths, minds, hearts and souls:

Psalm 122
A Song of Ascents. Of David.

I was glad when they said to me, “Let us go to the house of the LORD!” Our feet have been standing within your gates, O Jerusalem! Jerusalem, built as a city which is bound firmly together, to which the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, as was decreed for Israel, to give thanks to the name of the LORD. There thrones for judgment were set, the thrones of the house of David. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem! “May they prosper who love you! Peace be within your walls, and security within your towers!” For my brethren and companions’ sake I will say, “Peace be within you!” For the sake of the house of the LORD our God, I will seek your good.

Peace be to you.

In the Hearts of Yeshua and Miriam.

IC XC NIKA

 

[Valke2]

I see no assertion either in the articles I linked to or the ones you did that Zolli was fired and then reinstated by the Allied Command.

No, the the evidence in the Time article is quite clear, and, importantly, a contemporaneous report. Zolli resigned of his own volition.

A man who has been condemned or rejected by the community cannot control the timing of his exit to assure himself a pension.

He “had remained” Chief Rabbi until he voluntarily resigned.

At the beginning of September 1943, when the Germans entered Rome, he abandoned the community and took refuge in the nearby Vatican. At the end of the hostilities he reappeared to assume his position as rabbi, but was rejected by the community because of his unworthy behavior at the time of the greatest danger."
Then…
In June 1944, an agreement was reached between the German and Allied High Commands; the German Army withdrew from Rome and the Allies occupied the city without a shot being fired. At the time the Jewish Community Council in Rome was full of collaborators and the American military wanted them out and Zolli back in control. But the very day he was asked to resume leadership of the Jewish Council, he confided to his Jesuit priest friend Father Dezza that he had other plans. " (He did resume leadership as set forth in the article. It was obviously done without the blessing of the jewish community) ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/sswalllow_ezolli_sept05.asp

 

[Valke2]

The first paragraph of my above post is from the Encyclopedia Judaica, sited in my previous posts.

 

[IHS]

That is not a prohibition against lying, per se. It is a prohibition against falsley accusting/testifying against your neighbor.

I hope you are not serious. False witnessing is lying. There will be no liars entering into the kingdom of God.(Rev.21;8) Dont be decieved my friend. Satan is a LIAR. Is God capable of telling lies? Take a look also at Proverbs 6;16-19.

 

[Tiny_Montgomery]

At the beginning of September 1943, when the Germans entered Rome, he abandoned the community and took refuge in the nearby Vatican. At the end of the hostilities he reappeared to assume his position as rabbi, but was rejected by the community because of his unworthy behavior at the time of the greatest danger."
Then…
In June 1944, an agreement was reached between the German and Allied High Commands; the German Army withdrew from Rome and the Allies occupied the city without a shot being fired. At the time the Jewish Community Council in Rome was full of collaborators and the American military wanted them out and Zolli back in control.

Okay, I hadn’t noticed that passage you quote here (“In June 1944…”) from the article whosebob linked to earlier. Reading it, I see it comports with the Judith Cabaud interview, in which she observes:

In June 1944, the Americans arrived in Rome. Colonel Poletti, an Italo-American commander of the American army, asked to dissolve the Jewish community council by saying: “Get all these collaborators out and give me Zolli back.” But Zolli was now 65 years old, quite tired and on the point of retiring.

One can understand how there would be much bad blood in the community in light of these events.

 

[Valke2]

I hope you are not serious. False witnessing is lying. There will be no liars entering into the kingdom of God.(Rev.21;8) Dont be decieved my friend. Satan is a LIAR. Is God capable of telling lies? Take a look also at Proverbs 6;16-19.

Of course I’m serious. False witnessing is lying. But not all lying is false witnessing.

When God tells Abraham that Sarah laughed when she heard she was going to be a mother, He does not tell Abraham the whole truth. He omits the part where she said Abraham was too old to have children, in order to spare Abrham’s feelings. Thus, the legitmacy of the white law is born.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

(cont.)A gentile who wants to learn will always be welcomed to come & learn. Ruth clung to Naomi of her own accord without any previous lobbying by Naomi for her to do so. Naomi then attempted 3 times to dissuade Ruth from following her (see Ruth 1:8, 1:11-12 and 1:15). Only when Naomi saw that Ruth was determined & steadfast did she accept her. We learn our approach to seeking converts (partly) from this. We also take our cue vis-a-vis missionizing/accepting converts from Zechariah 8:23. Notice the dynamic here, who approaches whom.

But that passage most certainly does not speak for every attempt recorded in the Hebrew Scrptures where God attempts to reach out to non-Jewish people. The account of Jonah going to Ninevah is a powerful example of the exact opposite of this Zechariah-like calling to be honest.

In fact, there’s a lot of Hebrew Scriptures, including Abraham himself, which depicts something radically different from the direction of conversion noted in Zechariah 8:23

stillsmallvoice:

Beats me!

Then does this mean there really isn’t anything within either the Hebrew Scriptures or the Talmudic writings which addresses how God will bring about this great era of knowledge of God amongst the gentile nations in preparation for the coming of the messiah?

Or does this mean that it is simply a mystery within Judiasm that will be accomplished in God’s own time when he is ready to do so?

To be fair, I thought these were good questions for one to ask in order to understand Judaism better. At the very least, I certainly gave someone the chance to demonstrate their own faith to someone else who was curious to understand it better.

I thought so anyway.

stillsmallvoice:

See jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm#Bible.

Howzat?

Thank you.

It’s late, but I will take a look at these passages sometime soon.

stillsmallvoice:

Be well!

ssv

Thank you. And may the Lord bless you richly.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I’ll narrow it down for you. We learn that it is ok to tell small lies for certain purposes because we see that Hashem does this. An example can be found in Genesis. For two points, name the verse. Hint: It is a lie of omission.

Would it be this one by any chance?

…but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

I will note that many translations have something to the effect of “on that day you will surely die…” implying that their death for failure to obey should happen immediately within the time-frame of when the daylight ends (or somewhere within 24 literal hours…or something to that effect…).

If so, I will admit that this is actually a Judaic view that I have simply never understood.

If God can lie, even by omission, then how can he be trusted?

Does this mean that God can lie by omission if the final outcome is good?

Or would this indicate that God is somehow partially to blame for not letting Adam and Eve know a little bit more about what the final outcome would really be like?

Likewise, other passages within the Hebrew Scriptures seem to say that God is not a man, that he should lie-- nor a son of man, that he should change his mind for that matter.

I’ve always viewed this passage to mean that God simply cannot lie.

Others, as I’m already aware, apparently interpet this to mean that God is so above reproach that even if he lies (by whatever means) he cannot be held accountable for it because he is simply above human judgement.

This is similar to the Muslim view of God’s honesty if I recall correctly-- a view which I find quite perplexing.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

We’re not sure either. Other than that he will under him, the Jewish people will be united, return to Israel, that peace will reign, that the world will worship Hashem (but not necessarily as Jews)…

I think we can agree that there are major differences between the Christian and Jewish definition of Messiah, and that they go beyond the fact that you’re waiting for him to return and we’re waiting for him to show up for the first time.

True.

And, just to be clear, that is my own view on this matter-- that we’re both waiting for the same messiah. But, again, I’m not trying to convert you or stillsmallvoice.

My main concern in this thread is to determine where Jewish and Christian thoughts/expectations regarding the messiah actually differ. And, to this extent, I think this thread has been very edifying.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

In Isaiah ch 2 vs 1- 4

[sign]Hi mom. [/sign]
My mom:

It will happen in the end of days : The mountain of the Temple of HASHEM will be firmly established as the head of the mountains , and it will be exalted above the hills and all the nations will stream to it . Many peoples will go and say “Come let us go up to the Mountain of HASHEM , to the Temple of the God of Jacob , and He will teach us of His ways and we will walk in His paths .” For from Zion will the Torah come forth, and the word of HASHEM from Jerusalem . He will judge among the nations , and will settle the arguments of many peoples . They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation will not lift sword against nation and they will no longer study warfare.

Interesting translation.

I would actually prefer this passage of Scripture myself…

Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord. He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father. Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.

My mom:

Now my question is to everyone . why can’t people learn the Torah now and be prepared ? If all religions would just study the Torah …thank you

I suppose that this probably deserves another thread, but do you believe that, from our Christian perspective, Jesus filfilled the law for us?

Colossians 2:13-15]When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Perhaps ‘cancelled’ is not the best translation…

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I like what you have to say about the use of water in Genesis.

Thank you.

Valke2:

I just don’t see how you analysis leads to the conclusion that water is a symbol for gentiles.

To be fair, I don’t think all references to waters within the Hebrew Scriptures are references to the gentile nations-- although I do think there is a strong theme present (and I thought this was something taught within Judaism and not necessarilly superimposed onto Judaism by Christianity).

In order to explain this more clearly, let’s go right back to the beginning. Actually, let’s go back to before the beginning…

Parshas Bereishis
A Beginning With No End
By Rabbi Pinchas Winston
Friday Night

The earth was null and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the spirit of G-d hovered above the water.

Bereishis 1:3

It is taken for granted that chaos ensued at the beginning of existence. Though G-d could have made a completed world without passing it through a chaotic stage, Divine wisdom dictated otherwise, and therefore “null, void,” and “darkness” reigned in the early moments of the first day. Though it may be out of the question to ask why G-d decided to initially create a world in chaos, it is certainly not out of the question to ask what it teaches us. On the contrary, the fact the Torah records it means it is there to teach us something crucial.

Indeed, the second verse of the Torah provides an important clue to answer pressing questions, such as why, after five thousand years of history mankind has yet to achieve the coveted state of “universal brotherhood” and “peace for all mankind.” One would think that after witnessing the brutality of war and after experiencing unimaginable barbarism, mankind would abandon physical force and destruction as a means of resolving differences. But war is as prevalent today as it has ever been.

Why?

continued…