Judaism

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Why not? Why shouldn’t the world constantly fall into despair and head towards destruction? What basis is there to assume that the natural state of creation is order and peace? Because life appears to be that way? Take a closer look at physical existence and you will see that the “natural” order of creation is anything but peaceful:
To understand how chaos-and the questions chaos raises-affects your daily life, consider the seemingly simple matter of your heart. Traditional science treats it as if it were a pump beating like clockwork, whose complicated cycles can be broken down into a number of simple waves of standard shapes. Real hearts are far more puzzling. Your heartbeat is triggered by signals from your brain, but the actual rhythmic contractions are the result of a democratic vote by millions of muscle fibers, all agreeing to contract in synchrony. Such a system is obviously far from clockwork. The rhythm of your heartbeat continually varies by tiny measurable amounts. It’s not a variability imposed from the outside; even when your body is at rest, your heartbeat fluctuates. It is caused by chaotic internal dynamics …

DISCOVER; “Does Chaos Rule the Universe?” page 57, November 1992
Is this not what the second verse of the Torah teaches us, that the so-called natural state of creation is not order, but chaos? Is this not the reason why modern-day physics has discovered a universe in a state of entropy, a world in which mankind more easily drifts towards war and destruction than towards peace and brotherhood?

The midrash defines the chaos of the second verse in terms of specific exiles the Jewish people would have to endure. Null, says the midrash, refers to the Babylonian exile (423 - 371 B.C.E.); void refers to the Median exile (371 - 356 B.C.E.); darkness to the Greek exile (318 - 138 B.C.E.), and the face of the deep, to the last exile of Rome (approx. 63 B.C.E. until present day). (The spirit of G-d alludes to the Messianic period at the end of days.)

In one verse we are given a description of the natural state of existence and a historical overview of how that condition will affect the world, and more specifically, the Jewish people. In either case, it is not a pretty picture, and history bears witness to the veracity of the verse’s prophetic vision. The exiles have come to pass, war is rampant, destruction and corruption constantly rear their ugly heads, and somehow, the Jew always seems to bear the brunt of world chaos.

The only question is why must it be that way? The answer to that question is the subject of the third verse,
G-d said, “Let there be Light!” And there was Light.
The light created in the third verse was the response to the chaos and darkness created in the second verse. Light, therefore symbolizes the antidote to darkness and chaos, which, according to the Torah; is a light that can only result from a positive, moral, conscious act of will. G-d created a world in chaos so that He could then bring order to it through the medium of a supernal light.

Likewise, life itself can be like an intellectually dark “room” within which each individual must navigate to the best of his or her ability. Though we live in a world well lit by the light of the sun at day, and the light of the moon at night, often, we still grope in intellectual darkness. Even on subtle levels, chaos reigns in our lives.

However, that is where our role begins. For, just as G-d did on the first day of creation, we have to use our powerful free will to reduce the chaos of intellectual blindness. We have to take the world in chaos, and create order, and maintain that order. To fail to do so, the Torah warns, is to let creation and society drift back to its more natural state: chaos.

To be safe, before I proceed further, is there anything within this Rabbi’s words that you do not agree with?
 
…continued

To be safe, before I proceed further, is there anything within this Rabbi’s words that you do not agree with?
regarding the need to bring order out of chaos, and the closing parapraphs of the quote, I would agree. Nothing in what you posted jumps out at me as being opposed to any basic jewish beliefs.
 
Hi all!

Well Yom Kippur has been out for just over 3 hours. DW, Da Boyz & Da Hound are al asleep. Lessee…

whosebob said:
(What are you doing now in these forums?)

To learn about Roman Catholicism, to teach Roman Catholics about my faith & to make new friends! 🙂
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whosebob:
Jesus is either truly Israel’s Messiah or he wasn’t – there is no middle ground as to the truth of such an assertion.
Correct.
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whosebob:
May Our Lord bless you, stillsmallvoice!..Peace be to you.
Thanks! I need all the help I can get!
Mr. Ex Nihilo:
But that passage most certainly does not speak for every attempt recorded in the Hebrew Scrptures where God attempts to reach out to non-Jewish people. The account of Jonah going to Ninevah is a powerful example of the exact opposite of this Zechariah-like calling to be honest.
But Jonah was not going to Nineveh in order to preach to its residents to convert to Judaism, merely to repent of their evil deeds.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:
In fact, there’s a lot of Hebrew Scriptures, including Abraham himself, which depicts something radically different from the direction of conversion noted in Zechariah 8:23
Care & concern for non-Jews’ spiritual well-being is not the same as trawling for converts. They’re two separate things.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:
Then does this mean there really isn’t anything within either the Hebrew Scriptures or the Talmudic writings which addresses how God will bring about this great era of knowledge of God amongst the gentile nations in preparation for the coming of the messiah?

Or does this mean that it is simply a mystery within Judiasm that will be accomplished in God’s own time when he is ready to do so?
No, it means that I don’t know.

Be well!

ssv (rapidly running out of such post-Yom Kippur steam as I had) :sleep:
 
Hi all!

Well Yom Kippur has been out for just over 3 hours. DW, Da Boyz & Da Hound are al asleep. Lessee…
Have an easy fast (for you and Valke2).🙂
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stillsmallvoice:
To learn about Roman Catholicism, to teach Roman Catholics about my faith & to make new friends! 🙂
And I would like to take the time to say yasher koach to you for taking the time to do this. I’m sure there’s been a few responses that have not been pleasant for you.
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stillsmallvoice:
Thanks! I need all the help I can get!
You and me both. 🙂
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stillsmallvoice:
But Jonah was not going to Nineveh in order to preach to its residents to convert to Judaism, merely to repent of their evil deeds.
True. Yet we do see a rather Judaic form of repentance transpiring…
Then the word of the LORD came to Jonah a second time:
“Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you.”
Jonah obeyed the word of the LORD and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very important city—a visit required three days.

On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed:
“Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned.”
The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust.

Then he issued a proclamation in Nineveh:
"By the decree of the king and his nobles:
Do not let any man or beast, herd or flock, taste anything;
do not let them eat or drink.
But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth.
Let everyone call urgently on God.
Let them give up their evil ways and their violence.

Who knows?

God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish."
When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.

Admittedly, the forcing of the beasts to fast along with sackclothe might be pushing the envelope a bit much. But I think you see what I mean.

continued…
 
…continued.
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stillsmallvoice:
Care & concern for non-Jews’ spiritual well-being is not the same as trawling for converts. They’re two separate things.
True. And yet, I don’t really see any kind of outreach activity by most modern Jewish groups which show the concern for non-Jews like I see here within this passage of Jonah.

I’m not saying it’s totally absent-- because I’ve often seen Orthodox Jews for example standing alongside traditional Catholics and other conservative Christain groups to speak out against the more deplorable aspects of our modern day. Sometimes, on rare occasions, I see moderate Muslims groups involved too.

Likewise, I admit that Jewish people represent a signicant minority within most parts of the word-- so I am nonetheless very grateful for and impressed by the tremendous influence that this chosen people from Israel has had (at least on the Western part of the world).

In addition to this, I also recognize that Jonah was most certainly standing above many his own Jewish contemporaries since God himself choose him as a minor prophet specifically for this task-- so I realze that not just anybody can do what Jonah reluctantly did at God’s request. In other words, this is a rare event.

But, even still, all in all, I generally don’t see a really strong desire or passion amongst most Jewish people to reach out to the world and fulfill their God-given roles to prepare the world for the coming of the messiah.

Admittedly, there are various schools of thought within Judaism. Some are not necessarilly religiously devout-- more along the lines of atheistic or agnostic or simply philosophical for example.

Others, while devout in their own way, may be more mystically inclined, or perhaps blending or else seeking more Eastern-like religions.

Still others, falling more within the parameters or mainline Jewish othodoxy, still nonetheless perhaps see the role of messiah as being more of a peaceful political socio-economic structure and not necessarilly something which will be signalled by the coming of any specific person per se.

Yet, in all these various thoughts from within Judaism, I still generally don’t see a powerful zeal to bring to the world what they believe.

You said above that care & concern for non-Jews’ spiritual well-being is not the same as trawling for converts. And I think you have a good point here in saying that they’re two separate things.

And yet, on the other hand, they do seem to be somewhat similar too, at least a reflection of each other to some extent.

In other words, I think it’s a fair question to ask, if it can be fairly answered, when care & concern for non-Jews’ spiritual well-being steps beyond its own bounds and becomes the same as trawling for converts?

Perhaps they’re not so close as being two different sides of the same coin so to speak. But they do seem to both be different kinds of currency which can easilly be exchanged with one another with very little loss due to the exchange rates involved.
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stillsmallvoice:
No, it means that I don’t know.
Fair enough. Like I said before, I’m not looking to debate-- although I did ask questions if I thought I wasn’t understanding something clearly. So I just thought I’d ask. 🙂
 
regarding the need to bring order out of chaos, and the closing parapraphs of the quote, I would agree. Nothing in what you posted jumps out at me as being opposed to any basic jewish beliefs.
Fair enough. Let’s continue then.

Please note: stillsmallvoice can certainly jump in anytime he feels like replying too.

As the quote finished with in the previous posts notes, it has been suggested within Judaic thinking that, like God, we have to take the world in chaos and create order and maintain that order. In fact, to fail to do so, the Torah apparently warns, is to let creation and society drift back to its more natural state: chaos.

Taking this one step further, R. Simeon b. Yohai once commented that God stipulated that the world was to return to chaos unless Israel accepted the Torah. He also commented on Israel’s joy in accepting it and Moses’ fight to obtain it — an appreciation of the fact that God’s kingdom on earth can be established only after struggle.

Another Rabbi comments as follows in What Judaism Means*…
Rabbi Norman Lamm
President
Yeshiva University
New York City

TO THE EDITOR: David Gelernter beautifully captures the centrality of separation in Judaism. Yet Jewish thought also includes a contradictory strain relating to unity and wholeness. A midrash on the Creation story, for example, pictures the upper and lower waters weeping to be together again, not in order to return to chaos but to be reunited in God’s presence.

The thrust toward unity appears even in regard to the Sabbath, the most separate of days. Building on the words “remember” and “observe” that appear in the two versions of the Sabbath commandment (Exodus 20:8, Deuteronomy 5:12), the rabbis advise us to “remember” the Sabbath by bearing it in mind for three days after it has ended and to “observe” it by starting to prepare for it three days before it arrives. Instead of regarding the day as a gap in the week, they hoped to imbue the entire week with some of the day’s sanctity.

Perhaps the significance of this impulse toward wholeness in Judaism is an extension of the meaning of holiness. On the biblical verse, “Make yourselves a holy because I am holy” (Leviticus 11:44), Mr. Gelernter relays the midrashic comment, “As I am separate, so you be separate.” But another midrash says “As He is gracious and compassionate, so you be gracious and compassionate.” Holiness involves not only a separations, but also reaching across the separations to extend grace and compassion to others. The ideas may be contradictory but they are not mutually exclusive; the Jewish people have been sustained both by their separateness from the world and by their connectedness to it.
Again, to be safe, before I proceed further, is there anything within either of these Rabbi’s words that you do not agree with?

*Magazine article; Commentary, Vol. 114, September 2002
 
Fair enough. Let’s continue then.

Please note: stillsmallvoice can certainly jump in anytime he feels like replying too.

As the quote finished with in the previous posts notes, it has been suggested within Judaic thinking that, like God, we have to take the world in chaos and create order and maintain that order. In fact, to fail to do so, the Torah apparently warns, is to let creation and society drift back to its more natural state: chaos.

Taking this one step further, R. Simeon b. Yohai once commented that God stipulated that the world was to return to chaos unless Israel accepted the Torah. He also commented on Israel’s joy in accepting it and Moses’ fight to obtain it — an appreciation of the fact that God’s kingdom on earth can be established only after struggle.

Another Rabbi comments as follows in What Judaism Means*…

Again, to be safe, before I proceed further, is there anything within either of these Rabbi’s words that you do not agree with?

*Magazine article; Commentary, Vol. 114, September 2002
I would agree with this. In fact, regarding the sacrifical goat that was used on Yom Kippur, we learned a similar lesson. So I’m with you so far.
 
…continued.

True. And yet, I don’t really see any kind of outreach activity by most modern Jewish groups which show the concern for non-Jews like I see here within this passage of Jonah.
First, keep in mind that Jonah was upset when Hashem did not harm the people after they repented. Second, we don’t view Jonah as a lesson to preach to other people. (BTW, we read the book of Jonah yesterday, as we do each year, at Yom Kippur).

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Keep in mind that Israel has a history of about 50 years of even being in a position to do anything for anyone other than themselves. Before that, we were too busy trying to avoid being exterminated. And even in the last 50 years that hasn’t exactly changed.
 
Hi all!
Mr. Ex Nihilo:
Have an easy fast (for you and Valke2).🙂
Mine was OK, thanks. DW fasts terribly. She took today off work.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:
And yet, I don’t really see any kind of outreach activity by most modern Jewish groups which show the concern for non-Jews like I see here within this passage of Jonah.
Well, I second what Valke2 has said on this matter & would humbly submit that perhaps you are not looking in the right places. Try mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/MFA+Spokesman/2006/Israel%20sends%20disaster%20aid%20to%20Cote%20d%20Ivoire%2020-Sep-2006, mfa.gov.il/MFA/Israel+beyond+politics/Israeli%20doctors%20deliver%20new%20smiles%2028-May-2006 & mfa.gov.il/mfa/mashav%20–%20international%20development/activities/ for starters. Yad Vashem (yadvashem.org/) put out the following statement about Darfur: www1.yadvashem.org/about_yad/press_room/press_releases/14.09.06.html.

Rabbi Lamm’s Da Man!

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
Are you sure that we are talking about the same texts? Ecclesiasticus is not Ecclesiastes, remember, and the Additions are not in the traditional Esther. All of the books asked about were found only in Greek, and the additions to Esther and Daniel likewise. They were excluded when the Ketuvim were collected together into the canon, and the Jewish Encyclopedia (see response to Saint_Michael) believes that they remain so.
No. I’m not sure we are talking about the same texts. Those are good points.
 
I think so-- though I’m not sure. There seems to be a ‘baptism of desire’ within Catholic theology, something which is why I was asking the questions I was asking you.

So, in a sense, I was looking to see if there was any Jewish equivalent to this Catholic teaching.

In addition to that, I was wondering what your take on the following passage was…

Quite frankly, I don’t understand this passage within a Jewish context.

Don’t get me wrong. I think I do understand this passage from a Christian perspective (cf., Romans 2:29). And, admittedly, it may not be a flattering understanding. 😦

That’s why, going back to Jeremiah 9:25-26, I was asking if there was some other way that a Jewish person could become a Jewish person outside the normal constraints usually associated with conversion to Judaism.
I don’t think i ever responded to this. I don’t know what this would have to do with spiritual conversion. It seems to be a figure of speech criticizing Israel for not taking the commandments to heart. Later, when he speaks about a “new covenant”, we view it as simply renewing the old covenant so that all Jews will comply with the commnandments and will take joy in doing so. SO that the new covenant is really just regenerating the everlasting covenant.
 
Of course I’m serious. False witnessing is lying. But not all lying is false witnessing.

When God tells Abraham that Sarah laughed when she heard she was going to be a mother, He does not tell Abraham the whole truth. He omits the part where she said Abraham was too old to have children, in order to spare Abrham’s feelings. Thus, the legitmacy of the white law is born.
Are you saying that God is a liar?:eek: .
 
How do you do the mini quote thing?
Was this to me? :confused:

If so, and if I’m understanding correctly, I just placed an * in the text above and then typed down below in little 1 size font → *like this 🙂
 
Are you saying that God is a liar?:eek: .
God said what He said. I’m saying that from this, we learn it is ok to tell small lies to spare the feelings of a person. And in fact, telling a truth that will harm a person would be prohibited. If you were fat, and I called you fat, I’d be telling the truth and committing a sin.
 
Was this to me? :confused:

If so, and if I’m understanding correctly, I just placed an * in the text above and then typed down below in little 1 size font → *like this 🙂
lol. NO. Not quoting in small font. I meant quoting only portions of a post, inserting your own text, and then quoting other portions…
 
God said what He said. I’m saying that from this, we learn it is ok to tell small lies to spare the feelings of a person. And in fact, telling a truth that will harm a person would be prohibited. If you were fat, and I called you fat, I’d be telling the truth and committing a sin.
Wouldn,t it be better to say nothing. Silence is golden.👍 When you lie you commit sin. A lie is a lie.God is not capable of lying. It would contradict his Word.:confused: Please read Numbers 23;19
 
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