Judaism

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Just to be clear, archaeological findings regarding the abominable practices of those who worshipped Molech are quite numerous and verifiable in history.

And, as is well known now, they included within the Canaanite practices the abomination of child sacrifice, described in the Scriptures as having children to “pass through the fire to Molech” as recorded in Jeremiah 32:35.

The Ras Shamra tablets desribes the god Molech. And, indeed, some unrighteous kings in Israel instituted the practice of sacrificing infants to Molech too.

God, through the prophet Jeremiah, denounced this ghastly ritual:

In the ancient Phoenician city of Carthage—part of the Canaanite culture—some 20,000 urns containing the remains of sacrificed children were found. The archaeologists at the site apprise us that…

Kleitarchos, a Greek from the third century B.C., actually described this sacrifice as the heating up of a bronze statue with outstretched arms. There is no doubt that infants placed into these red-hot arms quickly perished. 😦

Similarly, the 12th century rabbi Rashi, commenting on Jeremiah 7.31 stated:

A different rabbinical tradition says that the idol was hollow and was divided into seven compartments, in one of which they put flour, in the second turtle-doves, in the third a ewe, in the fourth a ram, in the fifth a calf, in the sixth an ox, and in the seventh a child, which were all burnt together by heating the statue inside.

Even still, later commentators have compared these accounts with similar ones from Greek and Latin sources speaking of the offering of children by fire as sacrifices in the Punic city of Carthage, which was a Phoenician colony. Kleitarchos (noted above), Diodorus Siculus and Plutarch all mention the burning of children as an offering to the chief god of Carthage.

Nonetheless, as the article notes, some might think the prophets were overly harsh in condemning the Canaanite religion. Some even try to downplay what was done to the innocent children by saying they were merely scorched yet allowed to live. Yet now, with detailed evidence of Canaanite practices found by archaeologists in this century, it is clear why the prophets were uncompromising.

In Judah such offerings were made in the Hinnom valley outside Jerusalem, and the location was known as “tophet”. This unholu aberration is particularly associated with the reigns of Ahaz (2 Kings 16:3) and Manasseh (2 Kings 21:6)-- but it all began with King Solomon building these temples and allowing his pagan wives to engage in these rituals long ago.

The time from King Solomon to King Josiah was around 400 years by the way-- and I’m sure that, on and off over this time-frame, perhaps millions of infants perished during this time.

I dunno.

When one looks at the potential deadly long range effects of King Solomon’s permissiveness and actions in the Israelites society, I fail to see how anyone could consider this man great by any definition of the word.
I’ll have to get back to you on that. But I never heard of anything dicussing the fact that post Solomon Israel engaged in child sacrifice.
 
Hi all!

Well, our weeklong Sukkot (jewfaq.org/holiday5.htm) & Shemini Atzeret/Simkhat Torah (jewfaq.org/holiday6.htm) holydays are over (which is why I have been cybernating & enjoying a week away from the computer) & tomorrow it’s back to the grind…

So…

My (admittedly orthodox) understanding is that Molech-worship included burning one’s children to death (the Biblical phraseology about passing children through the fire is a euphemism for burning them to death in the fire) & that (😦 :bigyikes: :crying: ) all too many Jews indulged in it (including King Manasseh). Whether Molech-worship involved actually burning the children or not, it was still the terrible sin of idolatry.

The Hinnom Valley (between the Old City & Mt. Zion on one side & the Jerusalem Cinematheque & the Scottish church on the other) is not far from my office. See jerusalem.muni.il/jer_sys/picture/atarim/site_form_atar_eng.asp?site_id=494&pic_cat=4&icon_cat=6&york_cat=9&type_id=7.

King Solomon built the (First) Temple & wrote (in our view) Song of Songs, Eccdlesiasties & most of Proverbs. Were these not great acts?

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
King Solomon built the (First) Temple & wrote (in our view) Song of Songs, Eccdlesiasties & most of Proverbs. Were these not great acts?
I don’t think that anyone would argue against King Solomon bringing Israel to a level of dominion which surpassed his fore-fathers, even including King David perhaps.

Likewise, no one should honestly doubt the gift of wisdom that God himself gave to King Solomon-- the Hebrew Scriptures and traditions are clear that King Solomon was the most wise man in his contemporary world. And I honestly suspect that no mortal man ever surpassed his intellect as relative to his own era.

I’m only pointing out that, bearing his close proximity to God and his surpassing wisdom given by God, King Solomon certainly seems to have ‘defiled’ the nation of Israel by allowing this practice to be introduced by his pagan wives under his reign and with his permission.

Again, I will stress that I do not believe that King Solomon actually participated directly with these pagan sacrifices. But he certainly did send an evil and corrupt message to the rest of Israel by direclty engaging in the building of these pagan temples along with the building of the True Temple of God.

His actions most certainly did lead to later more idolatrous practices. And while his actions may not have resulted in millions of deaths over the course of history, I think it would be fair to say that over those approximately 400 years since his initial permissiveness/approval, Israel probably did lose perhaps 100’s of thousands of innocent babies’ lives-- innocent lives which were being snuffed out in the flames of this macabre pagan holocaust to Molech.
 
Let me try this from a different perspective.

In Carroll’s book, he essentially claims that seed of anti-semitism were encased within the Christian Scriptures. Now, even though I don’t agree with his final conclusions regarding the reduction of authority within the Church in regards to the continuing anti-semitic themes within Christianity that certainly do appear to escalte, I am willing to concede that an initial anti-semitic elements certainly did grow within the Church. Although I think there’s more to it, I too agree with Carroll that these anti-semitic elements did, more of less, escalate toward the holocaust against Jewish people during WWII.

But, if this is so, then how does one reconcile this trend of anti-semitism within the Church with the actions of King Solomon within Israel?

Certainly his allowance of these pagan elements within Judaism, and his blatently building of these pagan temples within Israel (knowing full well the abominable things they did within these temples and how they endangered the lives of innocent Jewish babies before a pagan god), certainly this would be no different than the anti-semitic elements which are claimed to be encased within the Christian Scriptures.

In fact, if so, then, by comparison, we see the same exact dynamic happening.

These pagan anti-semitic elements permitted/encouraged by King Solomon’s permissiveness/building certainly did grow much like a cancer within Israel. And, as is evident for anyone to historically verify within the Hebrew Scriptures and elsewhere in the pagan nations, these anti-semitic elements did, more of less, escalate toward the pagan holocaust against Jewish babies during the reign of King Mannaseh for example.

To say that Solomon was not guilty because he did not directly participate in the sacrifices (only his wives did the dirty work) is like saying that Hitler was not guilty because he never personally placed someone in a gas chamber (only his nazi soldiers did the dirty work).

The contrast seems impossible to miss in my opinion.
 
Let me try this from a different perspective.

In Carroll’s book, he essentially claims that seed of anti-semitism were encased within the Christian Scriptures. Now, even though I don’t agree with his final conclusions regarding the reduction of authority within the Church in regards to the continuing anti-semitic themes within Christianity that certainly do appear to escalte, I am willing to concede that an initial anti-semitic elements certainly did grow within the Church. Although I think there’s more to it, I too agree with Carroll that these anti-semitic elements did, more of less, escalate toward the holocaust against Jewish people during WWII.

But, if this is so, then how does one reconcile this trend of anti-semitism within the Church with the actions of King Solomon within Israel?

Certainly his allowance of these pagan elements within Judaism, and his blatently building of these pagan temples within Israel (knowing full well the abominable things they did within these temples and how they endangered the lives of innocent Jewish babies before a pagan god), certainly this would be no different than the anti-semitic elements which are claimed to be encased within the Christian Scriptures.

In fact, if so, then, by comparison, we see the same exact dynamic happening.

These pagan anti-semitic elements permitted/encouraged by King Solomon’s permissiveness/building certainly did grow much like a cancer within Israel. And, as is evident for anyone to historically verify within the Hebrew Scriptures and elsewhere in the pagan nations, these anti-semitic elements did, more of less, escalate toward the pagan holocaust against Jewish babies during the reign of King Mannaseh for example.

To say that Solomon was not guilty because he did not directly participate in the sacrifices (only his wives did the dirty work) is like saying that Hitler was not guilty because he never personally placed someone in a gas chamber (only his nazi soldiers did the dirty work).

The contrast seems impossible to miss in my opinion.
Before we go any further, I need to be convinced that Solomon’s wives engaged in child sacrifice.
 
Before we go any further, I need to be convinced that Solomon’s wives engaged in child sacrifice.
I think the case is strongly in favor of his wives acting in such a manner.
  1. The Hebrew Scriptures seem to describe this process fairly accurately and warn strongly against it in the book of Leviticus for example…
Leviticus 18:21
" 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.
Leviticus 18:20-22 (in Context) Leviticus 18 (Whole Chapter)

Leviticus 20:2
"Say to the Israelites: 'Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community are to stone him.
Leviticus 20:1-3 (in Context) Leviticus 20 (Whole Chapter)

Leviticus 20:3
I will set my face against that man and I will cut him off from his people; for by giving his children to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name.
Leviticus 20:2-4 (in Context) Leviticus 20 (Whole Chapter)

Leviticus 20:4
If the people of the community close their eyes when that man gives one of his children to Molech and they fail to put him to death,
Leviticus 20:3-5 (in Context) Leviticus 20 (Whole Chapter)

continued…
 
…continued.
  1. Although the book of Leviticus strongly warns against this practice (and the details of this kind of sacrifice are abundant in archeological findings, desribed in detail in the writings of pagan historians, and the process os even desribed in Rabinnical writings), the first time we see this pagan offering being invoked within the nation of Israel itself appears to be under Solomon’s wives…
As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD; he did not follow the LORD completely, as David his father had done.
and again here…
So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD; he did not follow the LORD completely, as David his father had done.

On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. He did the same for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and offered sacrifices to their gods.
and again here…
But for the sake of my servant David and the city of Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, he will have one tribe. I will do this because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Molech the god of the Ammonites, and have not walked in my ways, nor done what is right in my eyes, nor kept my statutes and laws as David, Solomon’s father, did.

But I will not take the whole kingdom out of Solomon’s hand; I have made him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of David my servant, whom I chose and who observed my commands and statutes.
Now, to be fair, I’m not sure if there is anything that I could present that would lead you to agree with me on this Valke2. I’m not exactly sure what the Rabbinical writings say on this matter. But I think it’s fairly clear that something very bad started to happen within Israel during King Solomon’s time.

As I said before, these pagan anti-semitic elements permitted/encouraged by King Solomon’s permissiveness/building certainly did grow much like a cancer within Israel. And, as is evident for anyone to historically verify within the Hebrew Scriptures (and elsewhere in the pagan nations), these anti-semitic elements did, more of less, escalate toward the pagan holocaust against Jewish babies during the reign of King Mannaseh for example.

I’m not sure what else I can say.

What would you consider valid evidence for such a claim?
 
I think the case is strongly in favor of his wives acting in such a manner.
  1. The Hebrew Scriptures seem to describe this process fairly accurately and warn strongly against it in the book of Leviticus for example…
Leviticus 18:21
" 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.
Leviticus 18:20-22 (in Context) Leviticus 18 (Whole Chapter)

Leviticus 20:2
"Say to the Israelites: 'Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community are to stone him.
Leviticus 20:1-3 (in Context) Leviticus 20 (Whole Chapter)

Leviticus 20:3
I will set my face against that man and I will cut him off from his people; for by giving his children to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name.
Leviticus 20:2-4 (in Context) Leviticus 20 (Whole Chapter)

Leviticus 20:4
If the people of the community close their eyes when that man gives one of his children to Molech and they fail to put him to death,
Leviticus 20:3-5 (in Context) Leviticus 20 (Whole Chapter)

continued…
But again, there is at least some jewish commentary that refers to the giving of children to Molech not as child sacrifice, but as a ritual in which the child would be carried between two rows of fire and thus “given” to Molech. So none of those quotes convnice me that Solomon and/or his wives practiced child sacrifice.

As stillsmall said earlier, too many jews actually did sacrifice their children (whether this was post or pre Sinai I am unclear on).
 
…continued.

.

What would you consider valid evidence for such a claim?
Something in Jewish scripture or teachings that says Solomon’s wives engaged in child sacrifirce. Worshipping other gods does not necessarily mean child sacrifice, even when the god referred to is Molech.
 
I’ll email my rabbi after yomtov is over tonight and see what she has to say about it.
 
Also, to say SOlomon engaged in or permitted child sacrifice seems to contradict one of the most basic problems he tried to address with the Jewish people. In I Kings 8:46-50, King Solomon prophecies that one day the Jewish people will be driven out of Israel (irony?). He says that during their exile they would fervently desire to repent of their sins. So, knowing that we have a tendancy to backslide when things get rough, he spells out how we are to do this: He declares that they would face Jerusalem from their exile, confess their sins, “and God will hear their prayers in heaven, and forgive them for all their transgressions.”

This seems to expressly counter the allegation that he permitted child sacrifice, in that the reason he told the jewish people what they were to do in the future was because he feared that they would engage in pagan practices.
 
Also, that the scripture (1 Kings) refers to Solomon building a temple to Molech, it is understood by the sages to mean that, since he did not protest this against his wives, it is attributed to him. He did not actually order it built but he did not stop it.
 
Something in Jewish scripture or teachings that says Solomon’s wives engaged in child sacrifirce. Worshipping other gods does not necessarily mean child sacrifice, even when the god referred to is Molech.
Well…maybe so.

But this type of sacrifice seems to be clearly seen (either in Gentile and Jewish desriptions in addition to the archeological evidences available) in fairly well the same way no matter which culture this pagan deity appears in.

He may sometimes have different names which can be etymologically connected according to the culture he is worshipped in. But the actual description of the idol – with the outstreched arms which were heated up for ‘offering’ the child – appears to be basically the same regardless of which culture it’s mentioned in. 😦

To be fair, I suppose it’s possible that all these references to worshipping Molech does not necessarily mean child sacrifice, even when these sacrifices are offered to the god Molech.

But it seems like a stretch to me. 🙂
 
Also, to say SOlomon engaged in or permitted child sacrifice seems to contradict one of the most basic problems he tried to address with the Jewish people.
But, just to be clear, please remember that I don’t think that King Solomon himself actually directly engaged in these abominable practices.

I do, however, think that King Solomon was more than likely dangerously complacent regarding what he allowed his wives to do.
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Valke2:
Also, that the scripture (1 Kings) refers to Solomon building a temple to Molech, it is understood by the sages to mean that, since he did not protest this against his wives, it is attributed to him. He did not actually order it built but he did not stop it.
To be clear, that’s exactly how I’m reading it too. 🙂

In other words, I don’t think that King Solomon himself built the pagan temple. Rather, since he did not stop it from being built, and since he should have stopped it from being built, he is portrayed as being guilty of this sin before God precisely because he failed to do what he as King of Israel was responsible for doing. In fact, I’m quite sure that the money of the Israelites were spent to build these pagan high places-- and I’m positive that King Solomon, as the wisest man on earth, must have been aware of what was going on in these pagan temples.
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Valke2:
In I Kings 8:46-50, King Solomon prophecies that one day the Jewish people will be driven out of Israel (irony?). He says that during their exile they would fervently desire to repent of their sins. So, knowing that we have a tendancy to backslide when things get rough, he spells out how we are to do this: He declares that they would face Jerusalem from their exile, confess their sins, “and God will hear their prayers in heaven, and forgive them for all their transgressions.”

This seems to expressly counter the allegation that he permitted child sacrifice, in that the reason he told the jewish people what they were to do in the future was because he feared that they would engage in pagan practices.
Not exactly. First of all, I don’t think King Solomon permitted this at this time.

In fact, it’s not until after 1 Kings 8:46-50 we also come to 1 Kings 9:4-9 where God himself gives King Solomon a very stern warning as to what will happen if…
a: …he or his sons turn away from him and…
b: …do not observe the commands and decrees God had given them and…
c: …go off to serve other gods and worship them…
Why would God warn Solomon of this?

Consequently, later on, well after the warning given by God in 1 Kings 9:4-9, we see King Solomon doing the following in 1 Kings 11. And as a result of King Solomon’s actions, God says the following to King Solomon within this same chapter…
The LORD became angry with Solomon because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice. Although he had forbidden Solomon to follow other gods, Solomon did not keep the LORD’s command.

So the LORD said to Solomon, "Since this is your attitude and you have not kept my covenant and my decrees, which I commanded you, I will most certainly tear the kingdom away from you and give it to one of your subordinates.

Nevertheless, for the sake of David your father, I will not do it during your lifetime. I will tear it out of the hand of your son. Yet I will not tear the whole kingdom from him, but will give him one tribe for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem, which I have chosen."
Again, I’m not sure what to make of this Valke2.

It seems fairly clear to me that King Solomon was involved in this in some way which God himself considered very sinful. Myself, I don’t take any delight in pointing out things like this. In fact, I hope I am misunderstanding this.

As a Catholic, I do believe that King Solomon was a great Hebrew man chosen by God himself for that throne. But it does appear that King Solomon did turn his heart against the Lord later in his life. 😦
 
Hi all!
Mr. Ex Nihilo:
I don’t think that anyone would argue against King Solomon bringing Israel to a level of dominion which surpassed his fore-fathers, even including King David perhaps.
Dominion has nothing to do with it.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:
I’m only pointing out that, bearing his close proximity to God and his surpassing wisdom given by God, King Solomon certainly seems to have ‘defiled’ the nation of Israel by allowing this practice to be introduced by his pagan wives under his reign and with his permission.
Correct.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:
And while his actions may not have resulted in millions of deaths over the course of history, I think it would be fair to say that over those approximately 400 years since his initial permissiveness/approval, Israel probably did lose perhaps 100’s of thousands of innocent babies’ lives-- innocent lives which were being snuffed out in the flames of this macabre pagan holocaust to Molech.
I dunno about the numbers. Hundreds of thousands? Methinks you are exaggerating and ignoring the efforts of good kings like Asa, Jehosaphat, Uzziah, Jotham and Hezekiah, etc. The record from Solomon to Josiah was not one of unrelieved blackness.
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Valke2:
But again, there is at least some jewish commentary that refers to the giving of children to Molech not as child sacrifice, but as a ritual in which the child would be carried between two rows of fire and thus “given” to Molech. So none of those quotes convnice me that Solomon and/or his wives practiced child sacrifice.
Whatever, it was still the detestable sin of idolatry.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
It seems fairly clear to me that King Solomon was involved in this in some way which God himself considered very sinful. Myself, I don’t take any delight in pointing out things like this. In fact, I hope I am misunderstanding this.
Yes, I would agree. I don’t dispute that King SOlomon sinned in this regard.
As a Catholic, I do believe that King Solomon was a great Hebrew man chosen by God himself for that throne. But it does appear that King Solomon did turn his heart against the Lord later in his life. 😦
We don’t disagree on the basics, remember. We only disagree on whether Solomon’s sin rose to the level of Hitler’s to the extent that you believe either both are capable of avoiding eternal torment or both arent; whereas I say Hitler is incapable of avoiding eternal torment and Solomon will still have a share in the world to come.
 
I dunno about the numbers. Hundreds of thousands? Methinks you are exaggerating and ignoring the efforts of good kings like Asa, Jehosaphat, Uzziah, Jotham and Hezekiah, etc. The record from Solomon to Josiah was not one of unrelieved blackness.
Well, to be fair, I think it remains possible for a large amount to have been sacrificed over the period of roughly 400 years. As I quoted before, in the ancient Phoenician city of Carthage—part of the Canaanite culture—some 20,000 urns containing the remains of sacrificed children were found.

This was just one location that was at work for a period of over 600 years. Conseqeuntly, when one looks at how many times the the phrase ‘pass through the fires’ is used, one is left with the impression that this abominable practice must have been well known outside the Israelite community at least since the time of the giving of Deuteronomy…
Deuteronomy 12:31-32:
You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
…so, it seems to me anyway, this practive was around throughout the Cannanite lands well before Israel came onto the scene at God’s command. 🙂

Now, to be fair, we don’t actually see anyone within the Israelite community actually engaging in this abominable practice. In other words, the Mosaic law seems to have kept this terrible practice at bay at least until the time of King Solomon’s wives.

But then, once the permission seems to be given, we do see many examples within the Hebrew Scriptures of this practice spreading dangerously throughout the Israelite community.

There’s no doubt in my mind that good kings like Asa, Jehosaphat, Uzziah, Jotham and Hezekiah fought against this abominable evil. Yet, nonetheless, we still do see many examples within the Hebrew Scriptures of this practice temporarilly prevailing during some times too.

And if just one location in Carthage could produce some 20,000 urns containing the remains of sacrificed children within a period of around 600 years, then it seems reasonable that these Gehenna like spots in Israel could probably produce similar numbers too.

Since there is abundant historical records of this practice recorded all throughout the ancient world, and since there are Rabbinical writings which speak at least partially of this practice, and since the Hebrew Scriptures do record this wicked practice being carried out over and over again, it honestly doesn’t seem unlikely to me that such practices would likewise be very numerous within the Israeli parts of the world too.

Certainly Asa’s, Jehosaphat’s, Uzziah’s, Jotham’s and Hezekiah’s struggle against this abominable pagan practice seems to show a longstanding battle where many innocent lives would have been lost during the non-resistant periods when the good kings were not around to fight back.

So no. I’m not exaggerating when I speak of hundreds of thousands over this time frame. I really do think this figure is very possible.

I could be wrong. And I’m willing to admit that I could be grossly wrong. But I tend to think that the good efforts of Asa, Jehosaphat, Uzziah, Jotham and Hezekiah probably brought the total numbers of innocent slain down to around 200,000 throughout the entire Israelite culture from King Solomon to Ezekial.

Ezekiel 20:30-32 said:
"Therefore say to the house of Israel: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Will you defile yourselves the way your fathers did and lust after their vile images? When you offer your gifts—the sacrifice of your sons in the fire—you continue to defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. Am I to let you inquire of me, O house of Israel? As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I will not let you inquire of me.

"'You say, “We want to be like the nations, like the peoples of the world, who serve wood and stone.” But what you have in mind will never happen.

I think it would have been much worse without their efforts to stop this abominable practice. 😦
Be well!

ssv 👋
Thanks. And thank you for listening patiently. 🙂
 
Just checking my bases here…

Deuteronomy 30:19 says…
“Today I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose Life, so that you and your children may live.”
Apparently when a Jew chooses Torah, he or she is choosing life. But when they reject Torah, the are choosing death.

Is this how Judaism interperts this passage from Deuteronomy?
 
Just checking my bases here…

Deuteronomy 30:19 says…

Apparently when a Jew chooses Torah, he or she is choosing life. But when they reject Torah, the are choosing death.

Is this how Judaism interperts this passage from Deuteronomy?
Yes.
 
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