Judas Iscariot

[Fr_Ambrose]

This is the generally accepted opinion and action, yes. this is what we hope for, yes. Which is why we pray to saints, yes and ask for their intercession. But the Bull of Canonization, issued by the Pope, which is considered infallible, does not say they are in heaven.

So if Catholics don’t keep their Saints in heaven, where *do *you keep them?

 

[tequilamac]

Canonisation is an exercise of papal infallibility. People tend to overlook this. To say that a canonised person may not be in heaven would be a denial of the Pope’s infallibility.

No. The refusal to venerate that saint on the day appointed by the Pope as their feast day as a saint would be a denial of the Papal infallibility. To say that the Church does not definitively state the person is in heaven is not a denial of Papal infallibility. the Bull of Canonization simply does not contain that statement.
hey, I didn’t write it. The Church did.

 

[tequilamac]

So if Catholics don’t keep their Saints in heaven, where *do *you keep them?

How ridiculous. I never said the saints were not in Heaven. What I said was the Church does not definitively state that someone is in Heaven. Find in the Bull of Canonization where it says that the person is in Heaven and we will talk again.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

No. The refusal to venerate that saint on the day appointed by the Pope as their feast day as a saint would be a denial of the Papal infallibility. To say that the Church does not definitively state the person is in heaven is not a denial of Papal infallibility. the Bull of Canonization simply does not contain that statement.
hey, I didn’t write it. The Church did.

You’re making a distinction without a difference. Would you really think that your priest could stand in the pulpit on Francis of Assisi’s day and say: “We are obliged to venerate him on this day by papal decree but I do not believe he is in heaven”?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

How ridiculous. I never said the saints were not in Heaven. What I said was the Church does not definitively state that someone is in Heaven. Find in the Bull of Canonization where it says that the person is in Heaven and we will talk again.

What sort of logic is that, tequilamac? Is it any wonder that the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue gets bogged down?

 

[exoflare]

Fr. Ambrose, you are correct - the canonization process is infallible. The Church will declare certain people to be in heaven for sure, but the opposite is never officially proclaimed - that one definitely went to hell.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

How ridiculous. I never said the saints were not in Heaven. What I said was the Church does not definitively state that someone is in Heaven. Find in the Bull of Canonization where it says that the person is in Heaven and we will talk again.

If you are unsure where the Saints dwell, please consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It has some very clear teaching that they are in heaven.

 

[tequilamac]

What sort of logic is that, tequilamac? Is it any wonder that the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue gets bogged down?

It is that legalistic logic that drives people nuts.

It is not my fault. The Bull of Canonization does not say the saint is in heaven. It says we are to venerate on such and such a date this person as a saint. The rest is up to us. I did not write the Bull of Canonization. My point is the Church does not definitively say this person is absolutely without doubt in heaven. Anymore than it says Judas or Hitler is absolutely without doubt in hell.

 

[tequilamac]

Fr. Ambrose, you are correct - the canonization process is infallible. The Church will declare certain people to be in heaven for sure, but the opposite is never officially proclaimed - that one definitely went to hell.

Here is the entire, whole unadulterated infallible Bull.

(Ad honorem . . . beatum N. Sanctum esse decernimus et definimus ac sanctorum catalogo adscribimus statuentes ab ecclesiâ universali illius memoriam quolibet anno, die ejus natali . . . piâ devotione recoli debere.)"

“In honour of . . . we decree and define that Blessed N. is a Saint, and we inscribe his name in the catalogue of saints, and order that his memory by devoutly and piously celebrated yearly on the . . . day of . . . his feast.”

Where does it say that Blessed N is in heaven? It doesn’t.
It simply does not say we infallibly declare such and so to be in Heaven without doubt.

In order to know that, one must be aware of the Communion of Saints, the veneration of saints, the tradition of saints.

Any person who is not a catechised Catholic who heard the Bull proclaimed would not necessarily conclude that the Church said the person is in heaven.

They would conclude that the Church thought they were a holy person and we could celebrate their memory on such and such day. Why? Because…THAT IS ALL IT SAYS…

:yup: :yup: :yup:

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Here is the entire, whole unadulterated infallible Bull.

(Ad honorem . . . beatum N. Sanctum esse decernimus et definimus ac sanctorum catalogo adscribimus statuentes ab ecclesiâ universali illius memoriam quolibet anno, die ejus natali . . . piâ devotione recoli debere.)"

“In honour of . . . we decree and define that Blessed N. is a Saint, and we inscribe his name in the catalogue of saints, and order that his memory by devoutly and piously celebrated yearly on the . . . day of . . . his feast.”

Where does it say that Blessed N is in heaven? It doesn’t.
It simply does not say we infallibly declare such and so to be in Heaven without doubt.

In order to know that, one must be aware of the Communion of Saints, the veneration of saints, the tradition of saints.

Any person who is not a catechised Catholic who heard the Bull proclaimed would not necessarily conclude that the Church said the person is in heaven.

They would conclude that the Church thought they were a holy person and we could celebrate their memory on such and such day. Why? Because…THAT IS ALL IT SAYS…

:yup: :yup: :yup:

Well, if we wander down your path of logic we don’t even know if the Saint was saved. No mention of that in the Bull either.

 

[tequilamac]

Well, if we wander down your path of logic we don’t even know if the Saint was saved. No mention of that in the Bull either.

That’s a good point. I hadn’t thought of that. Why don’t they just say what they mean?

 

[JohnWilliams]

Fr. Ambrose, you are correct - the canonization process is infallible. The Church will declare certain people to be in heaven for sure, but the opposite is never officially proclaimed - that one definitely went to hell.

I’m sorry but I am somewhat ignorant to this, raised as a Protestant. Are you saying that men can declare what other men’s eternal dispositions are - either way?

 

[exoflare]

I’m sorry but I am somewhat ignorant to this, raised as a Protestant. Are you saying that men can declare what other men’s eternal dispositions are - either way?

Not “men” in general, but the Pope speaking in his official capacity teaching a matter of faith and morals… and only as a matter of somebody reaching heaven - NOT hell!

This is my understanding of it. Either way, I know the Church has never proclaimed that any one person is certainly in hell. There’s no purpose to doing that anyway.

 

[JohnWilliams]

Not “men” in general, but the Pope speaking in his official capacity teaching a matter of faith and morals… and only as a matter of somebody reaching heaven - NOT hell!

This is my understanding of it. Either way, I know the Church has never proclaimed that any one person is certainly in hell. There’s no purpose to doing that anyway.

It would seem to have some difficulty with this verse (KJV):
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

 

[tequilamac]

It would seem to have some difficulty with this verse (KJV):
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Then why are you asking?

 

[JohnWilliams]

Then why are you asking?

I guess because it seemed surprising. I haven’t been in this Catholic forum long but one thing that stands out perhaps more than anything, when I compare it to Protestant chat rooms, is the absolute non-judgmental attitudes when it comes to the judging of persons.

I find very much the reverse to be true in Protestant chat rooms with many not hesitating to point fingers and proclaim God’s judgments, particularly when it comes to Jews.

 

[jim1130]

I guess because it seemed surprising. I haven’t been in this Catholic forum long but one thing that stands out perhaps more than anything, when I compare it to Protestant chat rooms, is the absolute non-judgmental attitudes when it comes to the judging of persons.

I find very much the reverse to be true in Protestant chat rooms with many not hesitating to point fingers and proclaim God’s judgments, particularly when it comes to Jews.

Do some blame the Jews for the Death of Christ? In the Catholic Catechism, it clearly states that we ALL contributed to the death of Christ.

Jews are not collectively responsible for Jesus’ death

CCC 597 The historical complexity of Jesus’ trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles’ calls to conversion after Pentecost.385 Jesus himself, in forgiving them on the cross, and Peter in following suit, both accept “the ignorance” of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders.386 Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places, based merely on the crowd’s cry: “His blood be on us and on our children!”, a formula for ratifying a judicial sentence.387 As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council:

. . . [N]either all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . [T]he Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.388

All sinners were the authors of Christ’s Passion

CCC 598 In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that "sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured."389 Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself,390 the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone:

We must regard as guilty all those who continue to relapse into their sins. Since our sins made the Lord Christ suffer the torment of the cross, those who plunge themselves into disorders and crimes crucify the Son of God anew in their hearts (for he is in them) and hold him up to contempt. And it can be seen that our crime in this case is greater in us than in the Jews. As for them, according to the witness of the Apostle, “None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” We, however, profess to know him. And when we deny him by our deeds, we in some way seem to lay violent hands on him.391
Nor did demons crucify him; it is you who have crucified him and crucify him still, when you delight in your vices and sins.392

385 Cf. Mk 15:11; Acts 2:23, 36; 3:13-14; 4:10; 5:30; 7:52; 10:39; 13:27-28; 1 Thess 2:14-15.
386 Cf. Lk 23:34; Acts 3:17.
387 Mt 27:25; cf. Acts 5:28; 18:6.
388 NA 4.
389 Roman Catechism I, 5, 11; cf. Heb 12:3.
390 Cf. Mt 25:45; Acts 9:4-5.
391 Roman Catechism I, 5, 11; cf. Heb 6:6; 1 Cor 2:8.
392 St. Francis of Assisi, Admonitio 5, 3.

 

[JohnWilliams]

Do some blame the Jews for the Death of Christ? In the Catholic Catechism, it clearly states that we ALL contributed to the death of Christ.

Jews are not collectively responsible for Jesus’ death

Pretty much only the deeply afflicted skinhead types hold that the Jews killed Jesus. Same type of whacky doctrine that others on the fringe hold that the Pope is the antichrist - in spite of the fact that there isn’t a single aspect of any one of the 4 verses that contain the word antichrist that demonstrate anything other than the exact opposite. Go figure.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=118140

Might the following verse help shed some light on this subject?

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Revelation 13:8 kai <2532> {AND} proskunhsousin <4352> (5692) {SHALL DO HOMAGE TO} autw <846> {IT} panteV <3956> {ALL} oi <3588> {WHO} katoikounteV <2730> (5723) {DWELL} epi <1909> {ON} thV <3588> {THE} ghV <1093> {EARTH} wn <3739> {OF WHOM} ou <3756> {NOT} gegraptai <1125> (5769) {HAVE BEEN WRITTEN} ta <3588> {THE} onomata <3686> {NAMES} en <1722> {IN} th <3588> {THE} biblw <976> {BOOK} thV <3588> {OF} zwhV <2222> {LIFE} tou <3588> {OF THE} arniou <721> {LAMB} esfagmenou <4969> (5772) {SLAIN} apo <575> {FROM [THE]} katabolhV <2602> {FOUNDING} kosmou <2889> {OF [THE] WORLD.}

It would seem that the sinful nature of mankind killed Jesus - from the foundation of the world. It is interesting to ponder as to whether the Old Testament Jews were then saved by the blood of Jesus. It seems pretty clear that Old Testament Jews were at least “born again”.

It is also interesting to ponder what might seem to be the catch 22 that Adam and Eve were subject to. They did disobey God, but we have to admit that they were perhaps at somewhat of a disadvantage since it would seem they didn’t yet have the knowledge of good and evil with which to aid in their estimate their situation.

But most Protestants that I have posted with discount Romans 11 and simply believe that all Jews who don’t understand that their Messiah is Jesus are going to burn in hell.

The partial-preterists are particularly adamant about this. In another thread I indicated that I thought this type of judging of persons is the stuff of the “man of sin”. Since our bodies are the temple of God, if we give this “man of sin” a seat there, might he cause some to point their finger perhaps in a direction 180 degrees from that which they should be? After all isn’t this assuming the role of God? Exhaulting themselves above Him, since all of the folks I am talking about I made well familiar with the verse that makes it clear that we can’t know God’s judgments?

Futurists understand Jews better than preterists, mainly as a result of their belief that Jews play a key role in the last days, even though I believe their futurist eschatology is unsupportable with scripture. I do agree that the Jews play a key role but are doing it now, through fulfilled prophecy, not futurist fantasy. At least futurists understand how to love the Jews. The large Jewish ministries in some Churches that hold futurist doctrine are testament to this, while I believe the other false eschatology of partial-preterism creates a particularly hostile environment for reaching Jews.
Yahoo search on futurism and preterism: search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oGkmjHalNFiGoA73xXNyoA?p=preterism+lacunza+futurism+ribera&prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&x=wrt

I held futurist doctrine for over a decade prior to last spring.

I believe that God blinded some of the Jews, even after the Cross, perhaps so they couldn’t sin against Jesus.

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

It is not for me to question why, or at what time God did/will remove this blindness but we have seen many Jews being “completed” as we have entered what I believe to be the “time of the end”. The Gentiles finished trodding the Holy City in 1967 when the Jews regained control. This also was pretty close to the beginnings of Jews for Jesus.

Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

 

[Angelos]

Peace to all

I would like you to go and write posts for my thread about Judas Iscariot under the main category of Sacred Scripture.

Bless you,

Angelos

 

[exoflare]

It would seem to have some difficulty with this verse (KJV):
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

How? That verse doesn’t say that we know nothing of God’s ways - just that we cannot grasp them in their entirety.