Judas trying to do good? evil?

[Richie_Nelson]

I don’t really see this interpretation. Is there a specific passage you have in mind?

Why else would he have thrown the money at the chief priests and hanged himself?

 

[Richie_Nelson]

3When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. 4"I have sinned," he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”
“What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”

5So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

…From Matthew

 

[MarcoPolo]

Why else would he have thrown the money at the chief priests and hanged himself?

As I showed in post 12, he didn’t hang himself until the Pharisees refused him. It appears to me he doubted that forgiveness comes from God…or that God could forgive him by his own repentance.

 

[Evan]

As I showed in post 12, he didn’t hang himself until the Pharisees refused him. It appears to me he doubted that forgiveness comes from God…or that God could forgive him by his own repentance.

Your first sentence is factual. Your second is personal opinion. It appears to me he was aware that no good done by proper use of the silver (good end) could justify the method by which it was obtained (evil means).

The reason he would return to the Pharisees is that they were the suppliers of the silver, not that he was looking to them for forgiveness.

Judas may be in Hell, but the Church does not teach that.

 

[Old_Scholar]

NotWorthy

While I agree with your premise, I disagree with the conclusion.

The “Blame America First” movement is largely based on guilt.

The “Free Judas” movement is based on a desire to remove judgment of others from the table. This allows people to rationalize their own sins thus freeing themselves from guilt.

So, while both are based on guilt, they are coming at it from a different angle.

The first uses guilt to guide our actions.
The other uses our actions to free us from our guilt.

The Blame America First movement is based on the erroneous belief that the guilt lies with our government. So many of those who expound this agenda are young college students who have been taught by the Secular Progressives who command Academia in this country. With 93% of the College Professors confessed left wing liberals, nothing America does can be considered good by them—therefore they teach the hate.

I have not yet had the misfortune of speaking with a person who wants to release Judas from his guilt by making the claim that he repented in time. Perhaps he did, but it is not for us to say.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Glad you mentioned that. Nothing HAS TO BE DONE to fulfill prophecies. Judas always had a free will. The prophecy is a sign to aid our belief, but it does NOT preempt or override free will. There seem to be too many comments on these threads about Judas “serving the will of God” or “fulfilling prophecies” and that sort of thing. What he did was horribly wrong and damnable. God does not “need” people to do evil to do His Will EVER! The fact that God can draw good from evil does not mean he can’t draw even more good from good!

I disagree with your statement that nothing has to be done to fulfill prophecy.

If Jesus had not been betrayed, He may not have been crucified. If the soldier had not pierced Him with a sword, prophecy would not have been fulfilled. The same goes for the fact that since they thought Him dead, they did not break the bones in His legs so that He may die more quickly. That was all necessary in order to fulfill prophecy and someone had to do it.

In the Old Testament, there were prophecies that certain Kings would die in battle, yet someone had to kill them for that to happen.

Perhaps you just didn’t explain that far enough…?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I disagree with your statement that nothing has to be done to fulfill prophecy.

If Jesus had not been betrayed, He may not have been crucified. If the soldier had not pierced Him with a sword, prophecy would not have been fulfilled. The same goes for the fact that since they thought Him dead, they did not break the bones in His legs so that He may die more quickly. That was all necessary in order to fulfill prophecy and someone had to do it.

In the Old Testament, there were prophecies that certain Kings would die in battle, yet someone had to kill them for that to happen.

Perhaps you just didn’t explain that far enough…?

Yes, I may not have explained it very well. What I meant was, nobody HAD TO DO ANYTHING for prophecy to be fulfilled. I know this is hard to imagine, but the actions in the future happened FIRST, and the prophecy happened SECOND, only in the past. Let me put it another way. Just because God knows the future and what people will do, DOES NOT MEAN that they MUST do it. It just means God forsees it. This foreknowledge is contained in the prophecies to AID OUR FAITH. It is never meant as instructions on what we MUST do. It is merely a sign of God’s presence and foreknowledge.

That is why I say nobody HAS TO DO ANYTHING. People are just doing what they choose to do. God doesn’t NEED them to do what they are doing in order to fulfill his prophecies, they are just fulfilled by them doing what they were going to do anyway.

That’s why I say the action in the future happens FIRST, and the prophecy in the past happens SECOND. It seems contradictory, but it’s the only way I can think of to explain it.

 

[NotWorthy]

NotWorthy

The Blame America First movement is based on the erroneous belief that the guilt lies with our government. So many of those who expound this agenda are young college students who have been taught by the Secular Progressives who command Academia in this country. With 93% of the College Professors confessed left wing liberals, nothing America does can be considered good by them—therefore they teach the hate.

I have not yet had the misfortune of speaking with a person who wants to release Judas from his guilt by making the claim that he repented in time. Perhaps he did, but it is not for us to say.

This reminds me of a great story:

A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many others her age, she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat, and was very much in favor of “the redistribution of wealth.”

She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch Republican, a feeling she openly expressed. Based on the lectures that she had participated in, and the occasional chat with a professor, she felt that her father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his.

One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and the addition of more government welfare programs. The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the truth and she indicated so to her father. He responded by asking how she was doing in schoo l.

Taken aback, she answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left her no time to go out and party like other people she knew. She didn’t even have time for a boyfriend, and didn’t really have many college friends because she spent all her time studying.
Her father listened and then asked, “How is your friend Audrey doing?”

She replied, “Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy classes, she never studies, and she barely has a 2.0 GPA. She is so popular on campus; college for her is a blast. She’s always invited to all the parties, and lots of times she doesn’t even show up for classes because she 's too hung over.”

Her wise father asked his daughter, “Why don’t you go to the Dean’s office and ask him to deduct a 1.0 off your GPA and give it to your friend who only has a 2.0. That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a fair and equal distribution of GPA.”

The daughter, visibly shocked by her father’s suggestion, angrily fired back, “That wouldn’t be fair! I have worked really hard for my grades! I’ve invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played while I worked my tail off!”

The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, “Welcome to the Republican party.”****

 

[CathFaith1]

This foreknowledge is contained in the prophecies to AID OUR FAITH.

I’ve found Rev 22:11 speaks directly of this foreknowledge and the issue of free will.

**“Let the wicked still act wickedly, and the filthy still be filthy. The righteous must still do right, and the holy still be holy.” **

Rev 22:11

 

[Old_Scholar]

Yes, I may not have explained it very well. What I meant was, nobody HAD TO DO ANYTHING for prophecy to be fulfilled. I know this is hard to imagine, but the actions in the future happened FIRST, and the prophecy happened SECOND, only in the past. Let me put it another way. Just because God knows the future and what people will do, DOES NOT MEAN that they MUST do it. It just means God forsees it. This foreknowledge is contained in the prophecies to AID OUR FAITH. It is never meant as instructions on what we MUST do. It is merely a sign of God’s presence and foreknowledge.

That is why I say nobody HAS TO DO ANYTHING. People are just doing what they choose to do. God doesn’t NEED them to do what they are doing in order to fulfill his prophecies, they are just fulfilled by them doing what they were going to do anyway.

That’s why I say the action in the future happens FIRST, and the prophecy in the past happens SECOND. It seems contradictory, but it’s the only way I can think of to explain it.

That makes it easier to understand.

Are you a believer of predestination?

 

[Old_Scholar]

This reminds me of a great story:

:bowdown2:

 

[AmbroseSJ]

That makes it easier to understand.

Are you a believer of predestination?

That is a very difficult subject. First of all, in determining what is actually meant by predestination, and secondly, how this is accomplished. St. Augustine himself felt it was too deep and too murky for people to just “chat” about. There is no simple yes or no answer to that one I’m afraid.

 

[po18guy]

Nothing against the OP or the question, but has anyone noticed the recent surge in interest – even sympathy – for Judas Iscariot in these forums?

Is it, perhaps, because of the recent spate of dopey books and TV specials about the so-called “Gospel of Judas”?

Probably. Precisely why I do not watch.

“But woe unto him by which the Son of Man was betrayed. It would be better for him if he had never been born” Remember that Christ said this, knowing all that was to come. He said this specifically about Judas, who was one of His chosen twelve; who was sent out to preach the Gospel; who was sent to heal the sick, and who cast out demons. Sobering words for all of us.

A most Blessed and Holy Triduum and Easter to all.

 

[Old_Scholar]

That is a very difficult subject. First of all, in determining what is actually meant by predestination, and secondly, how this is accomplished. St. Augustine himself felt it was too deep and too murky for people to just “chat” about. There is no simple yes or no answer to that one I’m afraid.

**It certainly is a mercurial subject and has been for hundreds of years. There was a great deal of dialogue between two factions; each taking a side and Luther and Erasmus were at the center of it.

Erasmus was under intense pressure to either support or dispute Luther’s ideas and he was reluctant to confront him directly. Luther had written a book called “The Bondage of the Will.” It is said that he did this in response to Erasmus’ book, “Concerning Free Choice.”

Erasmus maintained the necessity of free will, saying that without it there is no justification for blame or praise. He said God’s commandments made no sense unless there is freedom to choose to either complete or ignore them.

Luther says there is no human freedom when considering justification. He said that humans are unable to do anything that was good outside of God’s grace. Even though he says free will exists, sin is the only place it could be exercised. He maintains that if free will, left to itself, can do nothing but sin.

In the end, it is God who saves and it is by His grace and grace alone.

If I had to choose, I believe I would support Erasmus’ side.**

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I started a similar thread this morning called “Judas, good or bad?”

I think it just comes to mind since it is the week before easter, and the last supper and Judas comes to mind.

I think after reading scripture, especally John, that scripture left Judas an “out”. In one place Jesus said that he still had everyone that God have given him, except for one. But in two other places he says that he had not lost any that had been given to him, with no disclaimers regarding Judas.

Plus Judas killed himself out of remorse. Let’s say for a minute that scripture said that “Judas took the money and squandered it on prostitutes and was one night eaten by lions as he slept”. It might have made a different point of view.

The pastor says that “no one is beyond the mercy of God”, and that “while the church teaches there is a hell, it also does not say anyone is in it, including Judas”.

Any way you slice it, Judas was an important part of our salvation. So, there might be some latitude beyond the idea that Judas is a given to be in hell.

thanks, Richie

It doesn’t matter what would have happened if things would have turned out different. The truth is what it is. Judas is as much a part of our salvation as the Devil is. Neither deserve our thanks for their betrayal and blasphemy of the Son of God.

I don’t know where Judas is and it never entered my mind to wonder about it. I am more concerned with myself, my loved ones and my neighbors.

Peace…

MW

 

[Richie_Nelson]

“But woe unto him by which the Son of Man was betrayed. It would be better for him if he had never been born”

But everyone assumes that he was speaking of Judas alone.

Perhaps he is also speaking of US? What about those of us who betray him daily?

Just like the phrase “Friend, do what you came for”. Everyone assumes that he refers to the betryal of that night. Maybe he was speaking of what Judas was born to do from the beginning, just like Christ was born to die for our sins.

 

[Nancyannheath]

I know it is easy to stay firm in that Judas was the worst sinner in the entire history of the world for betraying Jesus…and I wholeheartedly agree.

Our church had a Sermon on how devasted and hurt Jesus must have felt that one of his own betrayed him, but the Sermon’s purpose was all about not judging others and forvigeness. The lesson of the sermon was that even Judas may have been forgiven…we will never know and even Peter hated himself for denying Jesus… three times that day…but Jesus forgave him.

I relayed the story called “The Pit” earlier this year in another forum on this site and got a lot of people angry, but the story was about how much time Judas spent in purgatory (but it was in a dark slimy pit, not fire) and when he finally dug himself out for what seemed like thousands of years later, he found himself on the floor of the room the evening of the last supper before he went to betray Jesus (as if Jesus wound back the clock to give Judas a second chance), and Jesus said to Judas “there you are, we have been waiting and would not have started supper without you”

The moral of the story was that it is possible that Jesus forgives the worst of sinners.

Just dont lynch me for relaying that story, like the other group did. If this offends anyone, I am sorry in advance.

Yours in peace

 

[po18guy]

But everyone assumes that he was speaking of Judas alone.

Perhaps he is also speaking of US? What about those of us who betray him daily?

Just like the phrase “Friend, do what you came for”. Everyone assumes that he refers to the betryal of that night. Maybe he was speaking of what Judas was born to do from the beginning, just like Christ was born to die for our sins.

Ah, but Christ said this before it happened, so that when it happened, the Apostles would know it was truth. You can apply it to us, surely, but how is the promise of an eternity in heaven supposed to show that it would be “better for us that we were never born”? This scripture also shows, along with others, that you can lose your salvation through evil, as did the “Saved” Judas.

A blessed Triduum and Easter season to all.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Ah, but Christ said this before it happened, so that when it happened, the Apostles would know it was truth. You can apply it to us, surely, but how is the promise of an eternity in heaven supposed to show that it would be “better for us that we were never born”? This scripture also shows, along with others, that you can lose your salvation through evil, as did the “Saved” Judas.

A blessed Triduum and Easter season to all.

 

[Richie_Nelson]

Ah, but Christ said this before it happened, so that when it happened, the Apostles would know it was truth. You can apply it to us, surely, but how is the promise of an eternity in heaven supposed to show that it would be “better for us that we were never born”? This scripture also shows, along with others, that you can lose your salvation through evil, as did the “Saved” Judas.

A blessed Triduum and Easter season to all.

Sorry, I don’t understand what you meant, but ok.