Judeo-Christianity: what's going on here?

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gilliam:
Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God…
And you’ll find no evidence of this in anything I’ve written.
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gilliam:
All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.
This is the part that the “Judeo-Catholics” here need to focus on. They fail to acknowledge the antipathy between Christ and the Pharisees which constitutes a signifcant portion of the Gospels.
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gilliam:
Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel’s spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.
Jews are people. Judaism is a religion. This statement addresses Jews. It does not address Judaism.

I am addressing Judaism which is not covered by this papal statement.

This papal statement is not relevent in this context.

Jews are people. Judaism is a religion. This statement does not address Judaism.
 
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gilliam:
Only if you were a Jew. Your not a Jew, so don’t worry so much about it.
When a very organized effort is made to distort the Catholic faith, you better believe I will be concerned.
 
St. James:
When a very organized effort is made to distort the Catholic faith, you better believe I will be concerned.
The Catholic faith is not anti-semetic. Nor is it anti-Zionist. It is pro-God’s people. ALL of God’s people.
 
From the Catecism:

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
 
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gilliam:
The Catholic faith is not anti-semetic. Nor is it anti-Zionist.
No one is claiming that the Catholic faith is anti-semitic, but it certainly is not pro-Zionist, as many here would have it.
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gilliam:
.It is pro-God’s people. ALL of God’s people.
This is a meaningless statement.

The Catholic faith is faith in the teachings of Christ.
 
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gilliam:
From the Catecism:

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
This statement mentions nothing about Phariseeic, rabbinic Judaism, and it is not relevent to this discussion.

If you are attempting to assert that Christianity “sprung forth” from a religion that holds Christ to be a sorcerer who deserved to be executed for incitement and alledges our Blessed Mother to be a harlot, your judgement must be seriously questioned.
 
You are obviously Anti-Semitic adn Anti-Zionist…your words speak for your name…just and FYI…abandon the hate. :whistle:
St. James:
No one is claiming that the Catholic fatih is anti-semitic, but it certainly is not pro-Zionist, as many here would have it.

This is a meaningless statement.

The Catholic faith is faith in the teachings of Christ.
 
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dumspirospero:
You are obviously Anti-Semitic adn Anti-Zionist…your words speak for your name…just and FYI…abandon the hate.
The real hate is found in Orthodox Judaism, and that hate is for our Lord.

You have a very poor understanding of both Orthodox rabbinic Judaism and Catholicism if you believe that Catholicism has “sprung forth” from rabbinic Judaism.

Here are some of the teachings about Jesus according to Orthodox Judaism:
  1. Jesus repudiated the laws of kosher food (Mark 7:18-19). [Compare this to the prophet Daniel’s strict adherence to *kashrus
, in Daniel chapter 1.]
  1. He repudiated the laws of honoring one’s parents, and called on his followers to hate their parents; he also dishonored his own mother (Matthew 10:34-36; Matthew 12:46-50; Luke 14:26).
  2. He violated the Sabbath by picking grain, and incited his disciples to do the same (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-26).
  3. He again violated the Sabbath by healing a man’s arm, which was not a matter of saving a life, and he openly defied the rabbis in his total repudiation of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:9-13; Mark 3:1-5). [Compare this to G-d’s view of violating the Sabbath, in Numbers 15:32-36, Nehemiah 10:30-32, and dozens of other places throughout the Bible.]
  4. Jesus brazenly defied and disobeyed the rabbis of the Sanhedrin, repudiating their authority (This is recorded in many places throughout the New Testament, but look especially at Matthew 23:13-39 and John 8:44-45).
The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of “Jesus the Nazarene”:
  1. He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).
2) He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).
  1. He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh ? which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).
noahide.com/yeshu.htm
So you feel that Chistianity has sprung forth from a religion that teaches these things about our Lord?
 
St. James:
No one is claiming that the Catholic faith is anti-semitic, but it certainly is not pro-Zionist, as many here would have it.

This is a meaningless statement.

The Catholic faith is faith in the teachings of Christ.
The Catholic faith is not anti-Zionist either.
 
So…now I see you are troubled…So you are saying that Jesus was a sorcerer…and that he was sexually immoral??? He worshipped statues and was wicked and worshipped statues??? you need help my friend…you are not Catholic but you are Agnostic. I pray for you…you blaspheme the name of our Lord…God have mercy.

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St. James:
The hate is in Judaism, and that hate is for our Lord.

You have a very poor understanding of both Orthodox rabbinic Judaism and Catholicism if you believe that Catholicism has “sprung forth” from the Judaism.

Here are some of the teachings about Jesus according to Orthodox Judaism:

So you feel that Chistianity has sprung forth from a religion that teaches these things about our Lord?
 
*From the Catecism:

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.*
 
As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham’s stock. Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God’s saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham’s sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch’s call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people’s exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)

The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: “theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh” (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church’s main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ’s Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people.

As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and “serve him shoulder to shoulder” (Soph. 3:9).(12)

Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred synod wants to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies as well as of fraternal dialogues.

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.

**Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel’s spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone. **

The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to “maintain good fellowship among the nations” (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men,(14) so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven.

***NOSTRA AETATE ***PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965
 
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dumspirospero:
So…now I see you are troubled…So you are saying that Jesus was a sorcerer…and that he was sexually immoral??? He worshipped statues and was wicked and worshipped statues??? you need help my friend…you are not Catholic but you are Agnostic. I pray for you…you blaspheme the name of our Lord…God have mercy.

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The dishonesty of this statement is astounding.

I can only hope that you didn’t read my post #28 and that that’s why you’ve made the mistake of attributing to me beliefs about Christ which were taken from an Orthodox Jewish website.

Let’s try to have a reasonable discussion here. If your position is as strong as you claim, it surely can be supported with an honest argument and without ad hominem attacks.😉
 
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dumspirospero:
So…now I see you are troubled…So you are saying that Jesus was a sorcerer…and that he was sexually immoral??? He worshipped statues and was wicked and worshipped statues??? you need help my friend…you are not Catholic but you are Agnostic. I pray for you…you blaspheme the name of our Lord…God have mercy.

\
It appears he’s quoting orthodox Jewish criticisms of our Lord
 
The Catholic Church recognizes the state of Israel, and recognizes the right of Jews to believe the way they do.

The Holy See, recalling the Declaration on Religious Freedom of the Second Vatican Council, “Dignitatis Humanae,” affirms the Catholic Church’s commitment to uphold the human right to freedom of religion and conscience, as set forth in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and in other international instruments to which it is a party. The Holy See wishes to affirm as well the Catholic Church’s respect for other religions and their followers as solemnly stated by the Second Vatican Council in its Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, “Nostra Aetate.”

*The Holy See and the state of Israel are committed to appropriate cooperation in combating all forms of anti-Semitism and all kinds of racism and of religious intolerance, and in promoting mutual understanding among nations, tolerance among communities and respect for human life and dignity. *

The Holy See takes this occasion to reiterate its condemnation of hatred, persecution and all other manifestations of anti- Semitism directed against the Jewish people and individual Jews anywhere, at any time and by anyone. In particular, the Holy See deplores attacks on Jews and desecration of Jewish synagogues and cemeteries, acts which offend the memory of the victims of the Holocaust, especially when they occur in the same places which witnessed it.

Fundamental Agreement Between the Holy See and the State of Israel
 
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gilliam:
The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion.
Relaying facts about how Orthodox Judaism views Jesus Christ is not discrimination. It is speaking facts.

Speaking facts is not discrimination or harassment.

I’ve presented evidence of slanderous hateful claims about our Lord, Jesus Christ from the Judaic cannon of texts. What have you to say about those statements?
 
St. James:
Relaying facts about how Orthodox Judaism views Jesus Christ is not discrimination. It is speaking facts.

Speaking facts is not discrimination or harassment.

I’ve presented evidence of slanderous hateful claims about our Lord, Jesus Christ from the Judaic cannon of texts. What have you to say about that?
I have no problem with a civil discourse on the pros and cons of different religions. What I have a problem with is when people get so passionate that it turns into hate talk with broad generalities. Keep it civil, and we will get along just fine.

In short: watch the rhetoric and realize Israel will be there long after you are dead and that is just fine with the Catholic Church.
 
To deny widespread historic and current Jewish antipathy to Christ and Catholicism, the religion He founded as a consequence of His fulfillment of the Law, is to deny history and reality. The same would be true if one denied or ignored the antisemitism of many Christians.
 
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gilliam:
I have no problem with a civil discourse on the pros and cons of different religions. What I have a problem with is when people get so passionate that it turns into hate talk with broad generalities. Keep it civil, and we will get along just fine.

In short: watch the retoric and realize Israel will be there long after you are dead and that is just fine with the Catholic Church.
I haven’t asked what you think about me. I am not the topic of discussion here.

I’ve asked what you think about these Orthodox Jewish teachings about Jesus Christ:
  1. Jesus repudiated the laws of kosher food (Mark 7:18-19). [Compare this to the prophet Daniel’s strict adherence to *kashrus
, in Daniel chapter 1.]
  1. He repudiated the laws of honoring one’s parents, and called on his followers to hate their parents; he also dishonored his own mother (Matthew 10:34-36; Matthew 12:46-50; Luke 14:26).
  2. He violated the Sabbath by picking grain, and incited his disciples to do the same (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-26).
  3. He again violated the Sabbath by healing a man’s arm, which was not a matter of saving a life, and he openly defied the rabbis in his total repudiation of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:9-13; Mark 3:1-5). [Compare this to G-d’s view of violating the Sabbath, in Numbers 15:32-36, Nehemiah 10:30-32, and dozens of other places throughout the Bible.]
  4. Jesus brazenly defied and disobeyed the rabbis of the Sanhedrin, repudiating their authority (This is recorded in many places throughout the New Testament, but look especially at Matthew 23:13-39 and John 8:44-45).
The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of “Jesus the Nazarene”:
  1. He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).
2) He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).
  1. He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh ? which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).
noahide.com/yeshu.htm
Do you believe that Christianity has “sprung forth” from a religion that teaches these things about Christ?
 
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