Judge Upholds Indiana Voucher Program

[Trader]

wane.com/dpp/news/indiana/judge-upholds-Indiana-voucher-program

The Indiana voucher program was passed in May 2011 and is the nation’s largest with more than 4,000 children attending the schools of their parents’ choice. It has safeguards that include making only accredited schools eligible and requires voucher students to meet the schools’ standards on an equal basis.

Teacher unions and schools that do not meet the state standards sued to stop the program and promise to appeal.

Vouchers alone will not fix all our problems in education, but making parents more responsible and empowered for the education of their children is a giant step forward.

 

[BOSS10L]

I actually support the voucher system. Religion aside, parochial schools tend to instill better scholastic values than most city public ones do. If that is the only option a family has, then they should be able to take advantage of it.

In all honesty, I read the opponents of that judge’s ruling mindset to be as follows: “We don’t want inner-city kids coming to our schools. Let them stay in the ghetto where they belong.”

All that said, I’m a firm believer in the home principle. Meaning that if a child receives support and positive reinforcement from home, they will tend to do fine when it comes to scholastic endeavors, regardless of socio-economic status. Is there racism, classism, and bigotry that might stand in their way at some point? Probably. But if they’re given a fighting chance from the start from their parent(s), things can turn out for the better.

 

[incense]

I don’t like the safeguards. It means that parents can’t be trusted to do what’s best for their kids. And it keeps the national government finger in the classroom. (Some say the UN finger, and with documentation)

It shouldn’t be up to an outside overlord to decide when Shakespeare can be read, when slavery and the civil war be taught. Let the parents, teacher and schools decide. That’s the way it was done for decades/centuries until some lofty thinker decided it was a lack of standards that was making the public schools fail.

These standards have proven to be worthless, because the parents are fleeing from those failing schools. And society is stuck with adults who lack the most basic skills.

 

[Trader]

I don’t like the safeguards. It means that parents can’t be trusted to do what’s best for their kids. And it keeps the national government finger in the classroom. (Some say the UN finger, and with documentation)

It shouldn’t be up to an outside overlord to decide when Shakespeare can be read, when slavery and the civil war be taught. Let the parents, teacher and schools decide. That’s the way it was done for decades/centuries until some lofty thinker decided it was a lack of standards that was making the public schools fail.

These standards have proven to be worthless, because the parents are fleeing from those failing schools. And society is stuck with adults who lack the most basic skills.

I don’t understand your objection. Parents are still free to send their children to unaccredited schools or home school them, but the state does not have to pay for it. They can also choose to send their children to the local public schools for free.

If parents choose to use the vouchers for an accredited private school, they have to agree to and meet the standards of the school. If a school requires all students to take religion classes, it applies equally to voucher students. If the students have behavior problems, they are subject to the same rules as everyone else. The new law took special care so that the state would not interfere with religious schools.

Some of the problems so far stem from the fact that the program is so new. The law only passed in late May and was effective on July 1, less than two months from the start of the school year. 8000 scholarships were authorized, but only about half that many were used. There were also delays in payment so that some schools have admitted voucher students and were not paid promptly. Most of the Catholic shools in my area tested the voucher students and required many of them to repeat a grade. Some of the voucher students have been expelled for not meeting behavior standards.

Financially, it has been great for the State of Indiana. Vouchers to private schools cost less per student than public schools and if the voucher students perform at the average of private schools, it will be a big improvement academically.

 

[jilly4ski]

I don’t understand your objection. Parents are still free to send their children to unaccredited schools or home school them, but the state does not have to pay for it. They can also choose to send their children to the local public schools for free.

If parents choose to use the vouchers for an accredited private school, they have to agree to and meet the standards of the school. If a school requires all students to take religion classes, it applies equally to voucher students. If the students have behavior problems, they are subject to the same rules as everyone else. The new law took special care so that the state would not interfere with religious schools.

Some of the problems so far stem from the fact that the program is so new. The law only passed in late May and was effective on July 1, less than two months from the start of the school year. 8000 scholarships were authorized, but only about half that many were used. There were also delays in payment so that some schools have admitted voucher students and were not paid promptly. Most of the Catholic shools in my area tested the voucher students and required many of them to repeat a grade. Some of the voucher students have been expelled for not meeting behavior standards.

Financially, it has been great for the State of Indiana. Vouchers to private schools cost less per student than public schools and if the voucher students perform at the average of private schools, it will be a big improvement academically.

it also might help public school better help the students that are left in their programs. Yes they might have less money, but they might also have less students in each class, thus they might be able to focus on those students and their academics rather than just trying to control a large group of students.

 

[incense]

I don’t understand your objection.

It’s a great thing, what Indiana has done. But it’s not complete.

I’m not referring to religion classes, but the education standards. Every detail is listed. What kind of math at what grade. What science, in intricate detail. What English. It looks good on the surface, and is probably useful to kids who switch schools, but it keeps an outsider dictating what is taught.

But this does not consider the individual needs of the students, or group needs for that matter. What if the kids are more advanced? Or behind? Or there’s a special event happening which would make teaching a subject the perfect moment. Or the teacher has a special love of a subject not on the list. Motivation is the key to learning. That means understanding the kids’ needs and appealing to their curiosity. They’re not machines that always are able to do the same thing and desire the same thing at the same age. We require our teachers to have master’s degrees and then dictate every little thing they do.

I don’t care if the school is accredited or not. I trust the parents to pick the best school. After all, they’re the ones who love them. Too many others are using the schools to push their particular political agenda. The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. Let the money follow the children.

 

[Trader]

It’s a great thing, what Indiana has done. But it’s not complete.

I’m not referring to religion classes, but the education standards. Every detail is listed. What kind of math at what grade. What science, in intricate detail. What English. It looks good on the surface, and is probably useful to kids who switch schools, but it keeps an outsider dictating what is taught.

But this does not consider the individual needs of the students, or group needs for that matter. What if the kids are more advanced? Or behind? Or there’s a special event happening which would make teaching a subject the perfect moment. Or the teacher has a special love of a subject not on the list. Motivation is the key to learning. That means understanding the kids’ needs and appealing to their curiosity. They’re not machines that always are able to do the same thing and desire the same thing at the same age. We require our teachers to have master’s degrees and then dictate every little thing they do.

I don’t care if the school is accredited or not. I trust the parents to pick the best school. After all, they’re the ones who love them. Too many others are using the schools to push their particular political agenda. The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. Let the money follow the children.

If you are referring to federal control of schools, I am with you 100%, but this program is just the opposite. I would love to see the federal Department of Education abolished altogether.

At least in my current diocese and in the one where I grew up(where my brother is on the diocesan school board), schools are run at the parish level. The diocese provides guidelines and assists with things like group insurance and school supply purchasing cooperatives, but teachers, books, and curriculum are decided at the parish level. My old high school is independently run by a Benedictine Monastery and regularly has the highest test scores in the state. When I got to college and took calculus, they were using the same text book we had used in high school. I just took the exam and got to skip all the homework for my "A’, and used the time to become a good enough pool player to win a local tournament.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Most states have a set of standards for what gets taught in each grade/course. These have been in place since before NCLB and have nothing to do with vouchers. I haven’t looked into the Indiana program in detail, but on the surface it looks very similartoother state standards.

Inside a classroom, the standards are applied as appropriate to that group of students. Advanced students can go into things in more deatil or take time out for a topical study. Students who have significant delays usually recieve appropriate accomodations to help them. Students with less significant learning problems (or an educational gap) will have to work harder to keep up. They may also cover the material in less depth or have only a basic understanding at the end of the course.

The lack of state standards would not mean that suddenly all students everywhere would get an individualized education. On the contrary, it can mean that poorer students aren’t held to high enough standards and that advanced students miss basic knowledge because they only pursue subjects that interest them.

 

[zz912]

I don’t understand your objection. Parents are still free to send their children to unaccredited schools or home school them, but the state does not have to pay for it. They can also choose to send their children to the local public schools for free.

We’ll take your money away from you and then give you the option of sending your kids to schools WE approve of. If you don’t like it, well you can always cough up more money. Oh, you don’t have more money cause we’re taxing you blind? Tough.

 

[Trader]

We’ll take your money away from you and then give you the option of sending your kids to schools WE approve of. If you don’t like it, well you can always cough up more money. Oh, you don’t have more money cause we’re taxing you blind? Tough.

Is it your understanding that the state is responsible for the education of children? The teaching of the Catholic Church is that parents are the principal educators of their children:

loveundefiled.blogspot.com/2009/06/where-does-it-say-in-church-documents_09.html#!/2009/06/where-does-it-say-in-church-documents_09.html

I agree with you that taxes are too high. The states, and especially the federal government, have taken on way more tasks than they should. School vouchers are a good first step because they cost less than our failing public schools and give parents more options for better schools. The vouchers are targeted to parents who would have a difficult time paying for private school tuition.

 

[Yerusalyim]

I don’t like the safeguards. It means that parents can’t be trusted to do what’s best for their kids. And it keeps the national government finger in the classroom. (Some say the UN finger, and with documentation)

It shouldn’t be up to an outside overlord to decide when Shakespeare can be read, when slavery and the civil war be taught. Let the parents, teacher and schools decide. That’s the way it was done for decades/centuries until some lofty thinker decided it was a lack of standards that was making the public schools fail.

These standards have proven to be worthless, because the parents are fleeing from those failing schools. And society is stuck with adults who lack the most basic skills.

A subject I can speak somewhat intelligently to…I’m taking my MA in Education Curriculum and Instruction. I don’t entirely agree with you. The move to Common Core Standards (CCS) make a lot of sense. Almost all states have adopted the CCS…though none have implemented them yet. It will ensure a minimum standard for education across the country…with a common assessment. The CCS is benchmarked against international standards but not tied to them. Actually, if played right…the CCS will help homeschoolers too.

I wholeheartedly support the voucher system…parents and children should have choice in education.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Is it your understanding that the state is responsible for the education of children? The teaching of the Catholic Church is that parents are the principal educators of their children.

Yes the Church teaches that parents are the principal/first educators of their children. However, the Churchhas never taught that it is immoral or incorrect to send your children to public, state run schools.

Additionally, it is very much in the interests of the state (nation) to have an educated populace. It improves commerce, increases adherance to laws, and in general improves the quality of life within the state.

Even if you don’t have children, or choose to send your children to other places for education, you should be interested to ensure that your neighborhood, city, state have high quality public schools so that those children who are in those schools get good educations.

 

[incense]

Yes the Church teaches that parents are the principal/first educators of their children. However, the Churchhas never taught that it is immoral or incorrect to send your children to public, state run schools.

I believe they did, at least during the 1800s when the public schools were instituted to try to stop the spread of Catholicism in our country (the protestants feared a counter-reformation with the influx of the Irish). Parents were warned by the Church that their kids faith was in danger.

 

[incense]

Actually, if played right…the CCS will help homeschoolers too. .

Just think what you just said. That standards will help homeschoolers. Homeschoolers are outperforming everyone else with mom deciding what is best for each of her kids. Standards will kill that individuality and homeschoolers will fight it tooth and nail.

Please, let the public school fix their own problems first before they mess with anyone who’s outperforming them. And state, national or international standards haven’t done anything to help yet. You’re being misinformed. Can you get a refund?

 

[incense]

Even if you don’t have children, or choose to send your children to other places for education, you should be interested to ensure that your neighborhood, city, state have high quality public schools so that those children who are in those schools get good educations.

No thank you. I’ll try to ensure that private schools are available to every child in my community. There’s no fixing the public schools. It’s the system that’s wrong, and that’s the one thing that won’t change.

And forget about academics, it is not better to gain the world and lose your soul.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Just think what you just said. That standards will help homeschoolers. Homeschoolers are outperforming everyone else with mom deciding what is best for each of her kids. Standards will kill that individuality and homeschoolers will fight it tooth and nail.

Please, let the public school fix their own problems first before they mess with anyone who’s outperforming them. And state, national or international standards haven’t done anything to help yet. You’re being misinformed. Can you get a refund?

I should clarify. The problem homeschoolers meet in some states is that all they can get after completing home school is a GED. If there are Common Core Standards with a common assessment in place and home schooled children pass that assessment then they can demand a diploma as oppossed to a GED.

 

[incense]

Inside a classroom, the standards are applied as appropriate to that group of students. Advanced students can go into things in more deatil or take time out for a topical study. Students who have significant delays usually recieve appropriate accomodations to help them. Students with less significant learning problems (or an educational gap) will have to work harder to keep up. They may also cover the material in less depth or have only a basic understanding at the end of the course.

What parents tell me is that any child can be put in the advanced classes upon parent request. That these advanced classes do more questionable academic activities. And I’ve heard from speech therapists that they are given 4 to 6 kids at once for an half hour session, with each having a different problem. It seems it would be too inconvenient for the teachers to have all the kids with one problem meet at the same time, so therapy is scheduled to the teacher’s convenience and is mostly worthless.

 

[incense]

I should clarify. The problem homeschoolers meet in some states is that all they can get after completing home school is a GED. If there are Common Core Standards with a common assessment in place and home schooled children pass that assessment then they can demand a diploma as oppossed to a GED.

Most homeschoolers don’t want a GED, and do not take the test. It only stigmatizes them. The military will not accept a homeschooler who has taken the GED. The parents issue their own diploma and the colleges fight over the kids.

 

[incense]

At least in my current diocese and in the one where I grew up(where my brother is on the diocesan school board), schools are run at the parish level. The diocese provides guidelines and assists with things like group insurance and school supply purchasing cooperatives, but teachers, books, and curriculum are decided at the parish level.

From what was explained to me, most Catholic schools use public school books because it’s cheaper and easier. Otherwise they’d have to get their books approved by the state, which is considered too inconvenient.

Which makes you wonder, if a non-Catholic is teaching from a public school book, how Catholic is the school? The discipline is better, and there’s probably weekly mass and religion class, but it could be so much better.

 

[Trader]

From what was explained to me, most Catholic schools use public school books because it’s cheaper and easier. Otherwise they’d have to get their books approved by the state, which is considered too inconvenient.

Which makes you wonder, if a non-Catholic is teaching from a public school book, how Catholic is the school? The discipline is better, and there’s probably weekly mass and religion class, but it could be so much better.

I think we agree here too. The Catholic school you describe is being lazy. Many of the books in use in public schools are not suitable for Catholic schools and present a distorted and even anti-Catholic viewpoint in history and science. I am not aware of any requirement for the state to approve textbooks for private schools. Agencies that examine schools for accreditation are private and not controlled by the government. Just do a search for “who accredits schools?”. You will get the names of many private organizations.