Judging salvation

[benidict]

I have no problem believing there is no salvation outside the church…I just don’t believe that church is just your Catholic one.

then this does not apply to you. i however as a former protestant who came to believe the Roman Catholic Church, was and is the One True Church, am in a different boat. when the Holy Spirit reveals this truth to you, you must make every attempt to join with His Church. otherwise, yes, there is no salvation outside the Church. if the Holy Spirit reveals this to you, you will understand. it is explained in in the Catholic Catachism, and other Catholic writings. Peace

 

[benidict]

I always wondered how all these pronouncements could override sacred scripture…Like all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved…The Philippian jailer heard" believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ…Peter preached believing on Jesus and three thousand entered the church that day…No special ceremonies/programs…The church at Rome wasn’t even there…People drawn by the Holy Spirit found Christ daily whether at Jerusalem, Antioch, and to the uttermost parts of the earth. To their children and their children’s children even to those far off…Let the scriptures tell us who are His…It begs the question, “what is the church?”
Who is the church? Is it just a physical building ? Is it living stones? Does it matter what name is on the building or where people are gathered in His name who have the Holy Spirit residing in them…What do the scriptures say?

1 tim 3:15, and if youd like in true fundamentalist form, i can start throwing out bible verses with the best of them. but i just feel thats a waste of time. Peace

 

[PRmerger]

I have no problem believing there is no salvation outside the church…I just don’t believe that church is just your Catholic one.

What church is salvation found in, then? Is it the one that teaches that baptism is an ordinance? Or the one that teaches it’s one of 2 sacraments? Is it the one that teaches that we are OSAS, or the one that teaches we can lose our salvation? Is it the one that teaches that the Lord’s Day is on Saturday? Or the one that teaches it’s on Sunday? Is it the one that says speaking in tongues is necessary? Or the one that says it’s not?

And how do you know which of these 40,000 different churches got it right?

 

[PRmerger]

Not obeying a bishop who says you must attend Mass on a weekday Holy Day of Obligation or else you are committing **mortal **sin and face hell for that, I’m not as certain.

What if you knew it was* Jesus *telling you that you must attend Mass on a weekday Holy Day of Obligation or else you are committing mortal sin and face hell for that? *Then *would you believe it?

 

[PRmerger]

Is Unam Sanctum an infallible ex cathedra statement?

To answer the question above is: no it is not an infallible ex cathedra statement.

(Which is NOT to say that it is not authoritative, however.).

In the 2000 history of the Church, these documents have been deemed “ex cathedra” statements:

* "Tome to Flavian", Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon;
* Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople;
* Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just prior to final judgment;
* Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical;
* Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical;
* Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the immaculate conception; and
* Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the assumption of Mary.

 

[Hiskid1973]

What church is salvation found in, then? Is it the one that teaches that baptism is an ordinance? Or the one that teaches it’s one of 2 sacraments? Is it the one that teaches that we are OSAS, or the one that teaches we can lose our salvation? Is it the one that teaches that the Lord’s Day is on Saturday? Or the one that teaches it’s on Sunday? Is it the one that says speaking in tongues is necessary? Or the one that says it’s not?

And how do you know which of these 40,000 different churches got it right?

Christ can be found wherever the gospel is being preached and He is lifted up…The scriptures provide the gospel and contain what is needed to mature in Him…He is faithful to finish the work He started in us…I don’t think any church is 100% correct…It varies regarding things added since they met in houses…Jesus knows who are His and who are tares…They are among us all…We’ll only see clearly when we see Him face to face…Our church has missionaries in villages in the India/Nepal regions who are just now seeing the “Jesus” film freshly adapted to their language…You never know where His church will appear in the uttermost parts of the earth…One day soon the gospel will be heard by every tongue, tribe and nation…Grace and peace to you…

 

[PRmerger]

Christ can be found wherever the gospel is being preached and He is lifted up…The scriptures provide the gospel and contain what is needed to mature in Him…He is faithful to finish the work He started in us…I don’t think any church is 100% correct…It varies regarding things added since they met in houses…Jesus knows who are His and who are tares…They are among us all…We’ll only see clearly when we see Him face to face…Our church has missionaries in villages in the India/Nepal regions who are just now seeing the “Jesus” film freshly adapted to their language…You never know where His church will appear in the uttermost parts of the earth…One day soon the gospel will be heard by every tongue, tribe and nation…Grace and peace to you…

Amen!

But, which church is correct? The one that preaches the gospel that baptism now saves you? Or the one that says it has nothing to do with salvation? They can’t both be correct, right?

 

[Hiskid1973]

Amen!

But, which church is correct? The one that preaches the gospel that baptism now saves you? Or the one that says it has nothing to do with salvation? They can’t both be correct, right?

We’ll it’s like this. their are a lot of baptized people out there who are far from God…Made wet but still have a heart that remains far from a conversion experience…I know people like this(Catholic and Protestant)…Lukewarmness, ie living on the fence of who we want to follow is a scary position to be in…Church is a regular routine and the rest of the week they live for the god of this world…Repentance is the key…Jesus knocks, we invite Him in to change us from the inside out…Baptism is the outer sign of a life seeking to follow Him in the will He has for you…It was with in weeks that my druggy coworker and I had powerful conversion experiences…It was about a year that passed till we settled in a church and was water baptized and about a year later I wanted more and had an upper room type of experience with the Holy Spirit…But it was just weeks after our conversion experiences that we started talking to our coworkers about Jesus and His plan of salvation…Our change was a bit noticeable…No one can try to tell me we weren’t His kids till during that first year of conversion before we were baptized…It’s been almost 40 yrs since then and we are still pressing onward and upward, trials and tribulations along the way to burn of the dross to becoming more like Him…Oh sweet peace to trust in Jesus…

 

[SSTeacher]

To answer the question above is: no it is not an infallible ex cathedra statement.

(Which is NOT to say that it is not authoritative, however.).

In the 2000 history of the Church, these documents have been deemed “ex cathedra” statements:

* "Tome to Flavian", Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon;
* Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople;
* Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just prior to final judgment;
* Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical;
* Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical;
* Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the immaculate conception; and
* Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the assumption of Mary.

PR,

Don’t take this the wrong way but it just seems to me that it’s impossible for you or for any other Catholic to answer yes or no without qualifiying your answer(s). It’s just the way Catholics think, I guess. What you now seem to be stating is that Unam Sanctum is not an ex cathedra statement yet it still has authority. What am I to make of that? It seems like the answer is both yes and no. OK, then, I’ll accept yes and no and move on none the wiser because my question remains unanswered.

Well, let me try another line that might prove helpful for people (like me) who just don’t understand the Catholic mindset (and probably never will ). Perhaps you can say/opine who it is within the Catholic Church that “deems” certain papal prouncements to be infallible? Is it the pope or some other person or persons?

By the way, if you’re serious about thrashing this out, don’t you think one of us ought to start a new thread? It seems as though I might be derailing this one.

Cautiously,
Mick

 

[PRmerger]

We’ll it’s like this. their are a lot of baptized people out there who are far from God…Made wet but still have a heart that remains far from a conversion experience…I know people like this(Catholic and Protestant)…Lukewarmness, ie living on the fence of who we want to follow is a scary position to be in…Church is a regular routine and the rest of the week they live for the god of this world…Repentance is the key…Jesus knocks, we invite Him in to change us from the inside out…Baptism is the outer sign of a life seeking to follow Him in the will He has for you…It was with in weeks that my druggy coworker and I had powerful conversion experiences…It was about a year that passed till we settled in a church and was water baptized and about a year later I wanted more and had an upper room type of experience with the Holy Spirit…But it was just weeks after our conversion experiences that we started talking to our coworkers about Jesus and His plan of salvation…Our change was a bit noticeable…No one can try to tell me we weren’t His kids till during that first year of conversion before we were baptized…

So the churches that teach “baptism now saves you” are wrong?

What about the gospel and lift up Christ but preach that divorce and remarriage is fine? Who decides that their “gospel” is incorrect–or correct–whichever way it is you believe?

(Do you see what I’m getting at? You’re holding your own views of Scripture up as the standard–you believe that baptism can just “make someone wet”. Ok. But there’s lots of churches that have read the very same Scriptures as you, and believe something different. You may believe divorce and remarriage is just fine–but there’s lots of churches that read the Gospels and say it’s committing adultery. How do you know which one is correct?)

 

[PRmerger]

PR,

Don’t take this the wrong way but it just seems to me that it’s impossible for you or for any other Catholic to answer yes or no without qualifiying your answer(s).

Why is that bad?

If an atheist asked you, “Are humans good or bad? Yes or no?” you wouldn’t give a qualifying answer? And if the atheist said, “See! You can’t answer simply yes or no!” as if that proves something–yet it would prove…what?

 

[PRmerger]

What you now seem to be stating is that Unam Sanctum is not an ex cathedra statement yet it still has authority. What am I to make of that? It seems like the answer is both yes and no.

What’s confusing to you about something not being “ex cathedra” but still having authority? The CC has different levels of authoritative statements, and Catholics are required to give religious assent to all.

Since you’re a parent, do you preface all of your directives to your children with, “This statement I’m making has _______ level of authority?” Or did your children (when they were young) obey you because they were your children?

Perhaps you can say/opine who it is within the Catholic Church that “deems” certain papal prouncements to be infallible? Is it the pope or some other person or persons?

There’s multiple ways for a teaching to be pronounced “infallible”–either through the ordinary or extraordinary Magisterium., through a papal “ex cathedra” statement, through the constant teaching of the ordinary Magisterium…

By the way, if you’re serious about thrashing this out, don’t you think one of us ought to start a new thread? It seems as though I might be derailing this one.

Cautiously,
Mick

I usually question divergence of the thread until a Mod steps in. In all conversations there’s always multiple side-conversations going along. Nothing wrong with that, IMHO!

 

[Hiskid1973]

So the churches that teach “baptism now saves you” are wrong?

What about the gospel and lift up Christ but preach that divorce and remarriage is fine? Who decides that their “gospel” is incorrect–or correct–whichever way it is you believe?

(Do you see what I’m getting at? You’re holding your own views of Scripture up as the standard–you believe that baptism can just “make someone wet”. Ok. But there’s lots of churches that have read the very same Scriptures as you, and believe something different. You may believe divorce and remarriage is just fine–but there’s lots of churches that read the Gospels and say it’s committing adultery. How do you know which one is correct?)

I don’t think any are 100% correct…They had issues from day one…Even your pope was rebuked…This is one of these questions that will only be settled on the other side…We’ll know where we were wrong but it won’t matter because we will be like Him…But it’s our faith in Christ that will get us there…Any works we did pleasing to Him will provide us with gold/silver we can offer unto Him…My wife and I go to sleep in great peace as we clean our hearts of anything displeasing to Him that we might have did/said throughout the day…

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t think any are 100% correct…

So how do you know what, if anything, is correct?

If you’re not really sure whether baptism saves you or not, or whether divorce and remarriage is adultery, then how do you know that Jesus dying for your sins is correct?

 

[blazerdave]

Hi Matt,

As you can see from reading the posts on this thread I’m being given the run around. Since you’re the Original Poster let me allow you the opportunity to answer a straight question. Is Unam Sanctum an infallible ex cathedra statement? And I will accept “I don’t know” as an answer. So if you’re up to answering my question here are your options:

a) Yes, Unam Sanctum is an infallible ex cathedra statement.
b) No, Unam Sanctum is not an infallible ex cathedra statement.
c) I don’t know if Unam Sanctum is an infallible ex cathedra statement.

This is not a trick question. It is just a question. Please answer it. All you need to do is highlight one of the three options and copy and paste it into your post. Many thanks.

Appreciatively,
Mick

Why do I have the feeling that an answer d) will emerge, even if not explicitly?

d) Yes and no, Unam Sanctum both is and is not an infallible ex cathedra statement.

The interpretation of answer d) is that we can’t not be unsure who won’t not be unsaved.

 

[Hiskid1973]

So how do you know what, if anything, is correct?

If you’re not really sure whether baptism saves you or not, or whether divorce and remarriage is adultery, then how do you know that Jesus dying for your sins is correct?

I just know that I know…Anyone who had a conversion experience knows the Holy Spirit’s working in their lives…

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;6570587:

PR,

Don’t take this the wrong way but it just seems to me that it’s impossible for you or for any other Catholic to answer yes or no without qualifying your answer(s).

Why is that bad?

If an atheist asked you, “Are humans good or bad? Yes or no?” you wouldn’t give a qualifying answer? And if the atheist said, “See! You can’t answer simply yes or no!” as if that proves something–yet it would prove…what?

Did I say it was bad? I’m simply observing that Catholics on this forum are unable to answer questions in a way that will actually help Non–Catholics. You are continually trying to “prove” something. So I guess answering yes or no would hamper your “proof.”

I’m clearly not getting anywhere so I’ll wish you well and let you have the last word.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[PRmerger]

I just know that I know…Anyone who had a conversion experience knows the Holy Spirit’s working in their lives…

Yikes! You “just know that I know”? Where is that in Scripture?

 

[PRmerger]

Did I say it was bad?

You clearly don’t think it’s good!

You want a yes or no, unqualified answer.

I think giving you lots more info is quite helpful.

I’m simply observing that Catholics on this forum are unable to answer questions in a way that will actually help Non–Catholics. You are continually trying to “prove” something. So I guess answering yes or no would hamper your “proof.”

Well, if you mean we’re trying to answer your question and provide a rational apologesis for our Faith, then yes, we’re trying to “prove” something.

The bottom line is: we don’t know whether you’re going to end up in heaven or hell. To the degree that you say yes! to Jesus, you are saying yes! to His Church. And if you say yes! to His Church, you will say yes! to the Divine Marriage Proposal, which is heaven itself.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Yikes! You “just know that I know”? Where is that in Scripture?

I’m secure in my faith…If you feel people must to Catholic to know God’s fullness that’s fine with me…I don’t think followers of Christ have to follow you pope or your to be saved…My faith in Christ has be working for me for almost 40 years…It will take me through to my time being up or His return…His church is beyond your Catholic church…