Judging somebody a "good" Catholic or not

[mikew262]

Over the many months that I’ve been reading and posting on this forum, I see more and more people making judgements on whether a particular poster is a “good” Catholic/Christian or not. They base their judgements on whether somebody happens to agree with them or not on some Catholic teaching/doctrine and/or society issue.

IMO, nobody here has the right to make those judgements. This is God’s territory. If one wants to disagree with somebody on an issue, go for it, but to state he/she is not a good Catholic/Christian simply based on disagreement on a particular point, no matter how passioniate the issue, is wrong, uncharitable, unchristian like, and rude.

If a person states in their profile that they are Catholic, who are we to question otherwise.

 

[Walt_Oliver]

You probably didn’t notice, but quite a few judgemental posters have taken mandatory vacations or are no longer with us. All would do well to heed your post.

Walt

 

[mikew262]

Walt Oliver:

You probably didn’t notice, but quite a few judgemental posters have taken mandatory vacations or are no longer with us. All would do well to heed your post.

Walt

Yes, I have noticed. Thanks!

 

[JamesG]

mikew262:

Over the many months that I’ve been reading and posting on this forum, I see more and more people making judgements on whether a particular poster is a “good” Catholic/Christian or not. They base their judgements on whether somebody happens to agree with them or not on some Catholic teaching/doctrine and/or society issue.

IMO, nobody here has the right to make those judgements. This is God’s territory. If one wants to disagree with somebody on an issue, go for it, but to state he/she is not a good Catholic/Christian simply based on disagreement on a particular point, no matter how passioniate the issue, is wrong, uncharitable, unchristian like, and rude.

If a person states in their profile that they are Catholic, who are we to question otherwise.

The fact is everyone already has a judge and that Judge is Jesus.

 

[byHisGrace]

mikew262:

Over the many months that I’ve been reading and posting on this forum, I see more and more people making judgements on whether a particular poster is a “good” Catholic/Christian or not. They base their judgements on whether somebody happens to agree with them or not on some Catholic teaching/doctrine and/or society issue.

IMO, nobody here has the right to make those judgements. This is God’s territory. If one wants to disagree with somebody on an issue, go for it, but to state he/she is not a good Catholic/Christian simply based on disagreement on a particular point, no matter how passioniate the issue, is wrong, uncharitable, unchristian like, and rude.

If a person states in their profile that they are Catholic, who are we to question otherwise.

Mike,
I agree with your overall sentiment about not judging. I think when someone has a disagreement and states someone is not a “good Catholic”, they may really be frustrated by the fact that the person they are disagreeing with is stating a personally held position that is in conflict with what the Catholic church teaches. The difficulty, then, is trying to understand how someone can be disobedient to a clear teaching on faith and morals held by the Church, and continue to call themselves Catholic. It is very difficult to dialogue with someone that claims Catholicity, yet proposes a personally held position that is against Church teaching. To many, (myself included) it seems irrational if not self-deluded.

I recognize that we sin, and all fall short of the call to perfection…but what I don’t understand is how someone can defy what the Church holds sacred, and even want to call themselves Catholic.

So its not about just disagreeing on “particular points”. Its about someone holding a position that is contrary to the teaching of the Church.
May God Bless you!

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

byHisGrace:

I think when someone has a disagreement and states someone is not a “good Catholic”, they may really be frustrated by the fact that the person they are disagreeing with is stating a personally held position that is in conflict with what the Catholic church teaches.

I’ve seen just as many instances where a person does not hold positions contrary to Church teaching, and still gets labeled a “bad Catholic”, simply because his/her beliefs on matters of tradition (not doctrine) differed from the labeler’s.

Thankfully, as Mr. Oliver pointed out, many of those folks don’t post here anymore.

 

[setter]

It would appear from reading many posts that the members on this forum represent but a microcosm of the greater Church at large. How we treat each other on this forum should be how we treat each other in the highways and byways and pews of life. My :twocents:.

 

[Fidelis]

mikew262:

Over the many months that I’ve been reading and posting on this forum, *I see more and more people making judgements on whether a particular poster is a “good” Catholic/Christian or not. * They base their judgements on whether somebody happens to agree with them or not on some Catholic teaching/doctrine and/or society issue.

IMO, nobody here has the right to make those judgements. This is God’s territory. If one wants to disagree with somebody on an issue, go for it, but to state he/she is not a good Catholic/Christian simply based on disagreement on a particular point, no matter how passioniate the issue, is wrong, uncharitable, unchristian like, and rude.

If a person states in their profile that they are Catholic, who are we to question otherwise.

I agree with you in general, but I don’t remember anyone in these forums specifically pronouncing someone “not a Catholic” just because of a meredisagreement. If it happened, it must be extremely rare. Could you provide an example of such a post?

Having said that, I think it is possible for someone to identify themselves as a de facto “not Catholic” by what they say they believe (or don’t believe). For example, if someone says he doesn’t doesn’t feel bound by the teachings of the Church “because my conscience tells me different” or “I’ve thought it through myself and I think different”, there’s not a whole lot the other person can do except recognize the fact that person has put himself out of communion with the Church. That’s different than a mere disagreement.

 

[mikew262]

byHisGrace:

Mike,
I agree with your overall sentiment about not judging. I think when someone has a disagreement and states someone is not a “good Catholic”, they may really be frustrated by the fact that the person they are disagreeing with is stating a personally held position that is in conflict with what the Catholic church teaches. The difficulty, then, is trying to understand how someone can be disobedient to a clear teaching on faith and morals held by the Church, and continue to call themselves Catholic. It is very difficult to dialogue with someone that claims Catholicity, yet proposes a personally held position that is against Church teaching. To many, (myself included) it seems irrational if not self-deluded.

I recognize that we sin, and all fall short of the call to perfection…but what I don’t understand is how someone can defy what the Church holds sacred, and even want to call themselves Catholic.

So its not about just disagreeing on “particular points”. Its about someone holding a position that is contrary to the teaching of the Church.
May God Bless you!

I understand your point. However, part of my catholic/christian values have always included “do not judge, or you too will be judged”. Nobody knows what’s truly in a person’s heart except God. Lets leave the judging to him.

 

[mikew262]

setter:

It would appear from reading many posts that the members on this forum represent but a microcosm of the greater Church at large. How we treat each other on this forum should be how we treat each other in the highways and byways and pews of life. My :twocents:.

Well said!!

 

[byHisGrace]

setter:

It would appear from reading many posts that the members on this forum represent but a microcosm of the greater Church at large. How we treat each other on this forum should be how we treat each other in the highways and byways and pews of life. My :twocents:.

Carol and Setter,
I totally agree with both of you. My point was about the frustration some feel when confronted by someone who is taking a view opposed to what the Church teaches. I recognize that there can be uncharitable comments on any subject.

So,while we shouldn’t say anyone “isn’t a good Catholic” in any circumstance I guess. When confronted with a Catholic that dissents from Church teaching on faith and morals…should we then refer to them as merely a “disobedient Catholic”?

 

[mikew262]

Fidelis:

I agree with you in general, but I don’t remember anyone in these forums specifically pronouncing someone “not a Catholic” just because of a meredisagreement. If it happened, it must be extremely rare. Could you provide an example of such a post?

I’m not going to name names here, but it happens more than you think. I’ve “chastised” more than my share of folks who have come right out and called somebody a bad catholic or told them they are not a catholic, if they hold this particular view. The moderator has already pointed out that several posters have been suspended for these types of posts.

 

[mikew262]

byHisGrace:

Carol and Setter,
I totally agree with both of you. My point was about the frustration some feel when confronted by someone who is taking a view opposed to what the Church teaches. I recognize that there can be uncharitable comments on any subject.

So,while we shouldn’t say anyone “isn’t a good Catholic” in any circumstance I guess. When confronted with a Catholic that dissents from Church teaching on faith and morals…should we then refer to them as merely a “disobedient Catholic”?

IMO, that is better, or even better than that is not label them at all.

 

[Fidelis]

mikew262:

Nobody knows what’s truly in a person’s heart except God.

Unless said person flat-out tells you what’s in their heart.

 

[OhioBob]

mikew262:

I’m not going to name names here, but it happens more than you think. I’ve “chastised” more than my share of folks who have come right out and called somebody a bad catholic or told them they are not a catholic, if they hold this particular view.

So if I hold views that are in opposition with the doctrine of the Church, what am I?

 

[byHisGrace]

mikew262:

IMO, that is better, or even better than that is not label them at all.

Mike,
Believe me, I really hear you on this…but in an effort to avoid all labels, sometimes people can be hurt. For example…if I were to say I don’t have to obey Humana Vitae and I am a good Catholic…then someone defending the faith to me would have to at least respond with …“well, you may believe yourself to be a good Catholic, but you ARE disobedient.”

There are other people reading these threads…and in fact I lurked here for a couple of years before coming home to the Church. There is right and wrong…and we are obligated to speak to that when we are speaking in conformity to what the Church teaches (as opposed to our opinions). While I agree labeling one as a good or bad Catholic is not the right thing to do…sometimes one has to confront disobedience or evil when it clearly conflicts with the truth of the Church.

God Bless you!

 

[OhioBob]

mikew262:

I understand your point. However, part of my catholic/christian values have always included “do not judge, or you too will be judged”. Nobody knows what’s truly in a person’s heart except God. Lets leave the judging to him.

To point out that someone’s belief in in opposition to the teaching of the Church is not judgement, it is correction. Isn’t it?

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

OhioBob:

So if I hold views that are in opposition with the doctrine of the Church, what am I?

Human. Infallible. Ignorant. Imperfect. Like the rest of us, whether we are in agreement or in opposition to her doctrines

 

[OhioBob]

JoyToBeCatholic:

Human. Infallible. Ignorant. Imperfect. Like the rest of us, whether we are in agreement or in opposition to her doctrines

But if we are in opposition to her doctrines, how are we Catholic? I’m not trying to be argumentative, I honestly have a problem with this.

 

[byHisGrace]

OhioBob:

But if we are in opposition to her doctrines, how are we Catholic? I’m not trying to be argumentative, I honestly have a problem with this.

I struggle with this too, Bob. It seems to be almost a form of scandal for one to claim to be a good Catholic, and openly dissent from Church teaching. And in this forum environment, it creates a terrible witness for people who may be lurking here, seeking the truth, as I was.

One should have the humility if they dissent from Church teaching on faith and morals to say that they are struggling to be Catholic…or that they are a disobedient Catholic. But the dissent is not defendable.