Judging somebody a "good" Catholic or not

[mikew262]

Fidelis:

Unless said person flat-out tells you what’s in their heart.

You got me on that one.

 

[mikew262]

OhioBob:

So if I hold views that are in opposition with the doctrine of the Church, what am I?

You are simply a person who disagrees with certain views of the Church, nothing less, nothing more.

 

[mikew262]

OhioBob:

To point out that someone’s belief in in opposition to the teaching of the Church is not judgement, it is correction. Isn’t it?

I have no problem with somebody pointing out somebody’s view is opposite a church teaching. This is simply stating a fact. However, to outright tell them because they disagree with a particular teaching that they are not a catholic or they are a bad catholic is crossing the line.

I believe one can discuss without being insulting.

 

[OhioBob]

JoyToBeCatholic:

Human. Infallible. Ignorant. Imperfect. Like the rest of us, whether we are in agreement or in opposition to her doctrines

I guess I don’t see it as a “good/bad” thing. Clearly those are judgemental terms. I spent many years in major dissent with Catholic doctrine. If you had asked me what I was then, I would have probably said that I was “raised Catholic” or something like that.

There are many points of doctrine that I don’t fully understand. In that sense I agree with JoyToBeCatholic that I am “Human, Fallible, Ignorant and Imperfect” among other things. But not understanding yet accepting as a matter of faith is different from opposition. If I oppose Catholic doctrine I don’t know what I would be, but I wouldn’t be surprised if someone pointed out to me that my beliefs were in opposition to the Church. Nor would I be insulted if, given my stated opposion, they asked me why I would choose to call myself “Catholic”.

Coincidently, I posted a rant on this subject on another thread right before I read this one, so I guess I am not long for this world.

 

[byHisGrace]

mikew262:

You are simply a person who disagrees with certain views of the Church, nothing less, nothing more.

Mike,
I’m sorry, but it is something more. To proclaim the Church wrong and myself right is disobedient. It also misleads others in the truth of the faith.

I can disagree with any Church teaching as long as I obey the Church teaching…but to proclaim that I don’t have to obey a Church teaching on faith and morals and proclaim myself a good Catholic is dishonest to say the least.

 

[mikew262]

OhioBob:

But if we are in opposition to her doctrines, how are we Catholic? I’m not trying to be argumentative, I honestly have a problem with this.

Ok, let me approach this another way, say a non-catholic Christian says to you that because you are a Catholic, and adhere to certain views that other Christians do not adhere too, that you in fact are not a Christian, but you are also a heretic and are going to Hell!!

Would you be insulted? Simply because you hold different views than this other non-catholic Christian, this person has judged you.

It isn’t right, is it?

 

[mikew262]

byHisGrace:

Mike,
I’m sorry, but it is something more. To proclaim the Church wrong and myself right is disobedient. It also misleads others in the truth of the faith.

I can disagree with any Church teaching as long as I obey the Church teaching…but to proclaim that I don’t have to obey a Church teaching on faith and morals and proclaim myself a good Catholic is dishonest to say the least.

I hear what you are saying, I do. Somebody in the situation that you described may in fact not be a good catholic, but IMO it’s not your place to tell them that.

 

[OhioBob]

mikew262:

Ok, let me approach this another way, say a non-catholic Christian says to you that because you are a Catholic, and adhere to certain views that other Christians do not adhere too, that you in fact are not a Christian, but also a heretic and are going to Hell!!

Would you be insulted? Simply because you hold different views than this other non-catholic Christian, this person has judged you.

It isn’t right, is it?

Telling me I was going to hell would be judgemental. But telling me that my beliefs differed from those of non-catholic christians would simply be a statement of fact.

 

[byHisGrace]

mikew262:

Ok, let me approach this another way, say a non-catholic Christian says to you that because you are a Catholic, and adhere to certain views that other Christians do not adhere too, that you in fact are not a Christian, but also a heretic and are going to Hell!!

Would you be insulted? Simply because you hold different views than this other non-catholic Christian, this person has judged you.

It isn’t right, is it?

Mike,
You’ve made the point we shouldn’t judge. Everyone agrees with you. We shouldn’t call someone good or bad…everyone agrees. BUT when a person proclaims they are a good or faithful Catholic, and says they can disagree AND not follow Catholic teaching …then its NOT just a matter of disagreement. Its a matter of disobedience. Big difference. And its scandalous to proclaim it as ok on a Catholic forum. There is truth…and it is taught to us by the Church…if we disagree…then we are wrong. If we both disagree AND disobey the we are sinning.

 

[OhioBob]

I posted this on another thread but since it is so appropriate to this thread, I will repost it here.

I didn’t mean it to be judgemental in any way, I was just trying to put my frustration on the issue into words.

It’s been nice knowing you. Be gentle, Walt…

OhioBob:

I find this whole issue of “dissenting Catholics” to be a frustrating oxymoron that inevitably pops up on any thread related to morality (among others). I find it hard to explain my frustration using analogies, but I will take a stab at it.…

Catholicism is a belief system, a body of revelation and sacred tradition that make up the deposit of faith which must be believed in order to be in communion with the Church. The fundamental essence of Catholicism is the deposit of faith and the adherence to Catholic doctrine by the faithful. The beliefs are the very things that make someone Catholic. If I believe everything that the Catholic Church teaches, then I am Catholic.

Catholicism is not an acquired attribute such as nationality. If I am born in America, I am an American. While I might choose to disagree with the Constitution and laws of America, that doesn’t make me something other than an American because my beliefs are not the fundamental essence of my citizenship. They might make me a more or less “patriotic” American, but my “Americanism” is not determined by my beliefs.

However, Catholicism is, in its essence, a system of beliefs and adherence to revealed truth as set forth by the teaching authority of the Church. I am either in communion with those beliefs and that authority or I am not. If I am, then I am Catholic.

But if I am not in communion with those beliefs – if I dissent, if I pick and choose doctrine, if I accept the teachings I like and discard the ones I don’t, if I follow them in my private life but ignore them in my public life (or vice versa) - then I am not Catholic. I lack the very essence of what makes someone Catholic. I am not “less Catholic” or “somewhat Catholic”. I am simply “not Catholic”.

Now I might continue to call myself “Catholic” because I’m “more like a Catholic than anything else”, but calling myself something doesn’t make it so.

I think that people who deny the teaching authority of the Church yet stubbornly refuse to recognize that dissent sets them apart from the Church are lying to themselves and setting themselves up for disappointment either in this life, or the next (or maybe both).

The height of vanity lies in the assumption that the Church should redefine truth to conform to my desires. To the contrary, Christ and his Church call Catholics to humility. I believe that the path to humility lies in remaining in full communion with the Catholic Church.

Sorry for the off-topic rant.

 

[byHisGrace]

OhioBob:

I posted this on another thread but since it is so appropriate to this thread, I will repost it here.

I didn’t mean it to be judgemental in any way, I was just trying to put my frustration on the issue into words.

It’s been nice knowing you. Be gentle, Walt…

Bob,
Amen and thanks for posting that here. I have nothing more to add. I think this horse is sufficiently beaten.
May God Bless you!

 

[mikew262]

OhioBob:

Telling me I was going to hell would be judgemental. But telling me that my beliefs differed from those of non-catholic christians would simply be a statement of fact.

How about saying you are not a Christian? In reality, you are both Christians, but your views happen to be different. Both of you believe you are right. Is it fair that person should judge you a non-Christian? If one Catholic disagrees with certain Church doctrine, is it proper for a more devout Catholic to declare that person a non-Catholic?

I know some of you have a problem with my reasoning, and thats ok. However, if I’ve given you “food for thought” on this issue, then I’ve accomplished what I wanted too.

 

[setter]

mikew262:

I have no problem with somebody pointing out somebody’s view is opposite a church teaching. This is simply stating a fact. However, to outright tell them because they disagree with a particular teaching that they are not a catholic or they are a bad catholic is crossing the line.

I believe one can discuss without being insulting.

Case in point: Concurrent with this discussion, on a another thread I am being labelled as being “some guy on the internet” and “some guy in the back of a pew with an internet connection” simply for clarifying and presenting authoritative Church teaching in a matter of Catholic sexual morality. Talk about belittling comments for citing the CCC. These forums require a tough skin folks just for standing up for what is Catholic amongst fellow Catholics!

 

[mikew262]

OhioBob:

I posted this on another thread but since it is so appropriate to this thread, I will repost it here.

I didn’t mean it to be judgemental in any way, I was just trying to put my frustration on the issue into words.

It’s been nice knowing you. Be gentle, Walt…

Good post and straight from the heart. I agree with most of what you said. You were stating your own opinion without directly insulting/judging anybody specifically. If somebody reading this feels insulted, then so be it. Maybe that’s their guilt at work.

 

[Maranatha]

JoyToBeCatholic:

Human. Infallible. Ignorant. Imperfect. Like the rest of us, whether we are in agreement or in opposition to her doctrines

You can not say that everyone on these boards are imperfect. It is possible that someone here is a saint. (I’ll add the caveat that, if there is, it’s not I.) To say everyone here falls short is itself a judgement.

We can objectively say that anyone who is in opposition to Church teachings is not a saint.

 

[Maranatha]

OhioBob:

So if I hold views that are in opposition with the doctrine of the Church, what am I?

By cannon law, if you were baptised Christian and confirmed Catholic, then you are a Catholic unless and until you have formally renounced your position in the Catholic Church.

Your opposition to the Church on teachings of dogma do not affect your position as a member.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

setter:

It would appear from reading many posts that the members on this forum represent but a microcosm of the greater Church at large.

That’s an interesting thought - I have always rather taken for granted that CAF - and the Net generally - tended to represent certain sections of the “Church at large”, but not the whole of it by any means.​

Which is not to say you aren’t right. ##

How we treat each other on this forum should be how we treat each other in the highways and byways and pews of life. My :twocents:.

Most definitely​

 

[Lapsed]

Maranatha:

You can not say that everyone on these boards are imperfect. It is possible that someone here is a saint. (I’ll add the caveat that, if there is, it’s not I.) To say everyone here falls short is itself a judgement.

We can objectively say that anyone who is in opposition to Church teachings is not a saint.

Being a saint does not mean that the saint has not fallen short. Every one on this board is imperfect. Unless there has been a second Immaculate Conception, every last one of us here has fallen short in some way, shape, or form. That’s not being judgemental, that’s Church teaching.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Fidelis:

I agree with you in general, but I don’t remember anyone in these forums specifically pronouncing someone “not a Catholic” just because of a meredisagreement. If it happened, it must be extremely rare. Could you provide an example of such a post?

Having said that, I think it is possible for someone to identify themselves as a de facto “not Catholic” by what they say they believe (or don’t believe). For example, if someone says he doesn’t doesn’t feel bound by the teachings of the Church “because my conscience tells me different” or “I’ve thought it through myself and I think different”, there’s not a whole lot the other person can do except recognize the fact that person has put himself out of communion with the Church. That’s different than a mere disagreement.

I can think of examples - for instance, a lot of Catholics call the Catholic character of their fellow-Catholics into question when the latter adopt positions and methods of studying the Bible which are - in reality - perfectly permissible, or even encouraged.​

It is the easiest thing in the world to see why many Catholics find it shocking that Catholic Biblical scholars do not believe that the infancy narraves are giving an account of what happened at the Birth of Christ - but, this conclusion of the scholars is perfectly permissible for Catholics.

It was not always so. The problem - a problem - is, that the “scandalised faithful” and the “scandalising scholars” don’t understand each other’s concerns. This is a pastoral problem for many Churches - it may especially thorny for a Church which reveres and calls upon its Tradition, prizes doctrinal fidelity very highly, and is dogmatic: there is in any case plenty of room for misunderstanding by the non-scholar of what the scholars do. The whole thing is beset with problems.

I do not want to make this a Scripture thread - wrong forum. ##

 

[Fidelis]

mikew262:

I have no problem with somebody pointing out somebody’s view is opposite a church teaching. This is simply stating a fact. However, to outright tell them because they disagree with a particular teaching that they are not a catholic or they are a bad catholic is crossing the line.

I believe one can discuss without being insulting.

I think that’s the key. It is our obligation to present them the full, unadorned, undiluted truth, but not to assign a label. If we have presented the truth in love, then the Holy Spirit can work on their conscience. That’s his job.