Judgmental Catholics

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Gilbert_Keith

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I read passages in Scripture regarding not being judgmental of the wrongdoing of others. Jesus weighs in on this quite often.

The problem I have reconciling myself with this point of view is that if we are not judgmental, we are not speaking and exerting our will and influence to stop immoral conduct in those around us. “Who are you to judge?” we often hear wrongdoers say. But if judgment is not passed on their wrongdoing, how are they ever going to have reason to pause and consider their own moral stance?

It is said that the reason evil triumphs is that good men and women do or say nothing. And finally it is too late when outrage is no longer even possible.

We live in a sick world. It is getting sicker. Are we supposed to be passive and shut up?
 
We can be judgmental of many evils in our society and attempt to eliminate them without once judging the state of someone else’s soul.

Besides, non-judgmental parents could never raise children properly.
 
Maybe we should just mind our own house before attending to others.
 
The point is not to judge or compare PEOPLE. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

We can look at an abortion clinic and say “That is wrong and evil and I want to do whatever I can to stop them.” We can look at an abortion doctor and say, “Abortion is wrong and I want to stop him.” But we cannot look at an abortion doctor and say, “He is evil and going to hell!” or “It would be just to kill him because he is evil.”

People’s spirtual condition is between them and God. Even somone like Hitler could have repented at the end and been forgiven (although, when you look at someone like that, it seems VERY, VERY UNlikely). So, God warns us that if we go around deciding who we think is going to hell, we might find ourselves in a “hot spot”.

And we can’t look at someone else and say, “I’m holier than them because my sins aren’t nearly as bad as theirs!”

It does get tricky when you get into trying to help someone get out of their sins. We all have sins and we should focus on our own first before we go trying to “fix” other people. But sometimes God puts us in a position to help people. Generally, you have to wait until the person asks for help. But if they aren’t interested in changing, you can’t do much and shouldn’t push or you’ll push them further away.
 
I am troubled by “love the sinner hate the sin” because the problem is when we associate the sinner with the sin, we cannot single out the sin to be punished so there’s no reason to hate it.

Regret it, sure. Whatever.

Justice when it comes to humans demands an accuser, a defender, and a judge. That is, except for humans who do not contest they have sinned.

We cannot judge sinfulness. We observe troublesome behavior, and can warn the person of its possible sinfulness and its ramifications, but the minute we try to “control” the person (even by guilt trips and strongly expressed “dissapproval”) we are using worldly restraints – which in some cases may be a good thing but generally do not work properly in the spiritual realm.

Alan
 
I am troubled by “love the sinner hate the sin” because the problem is when we associate the sinner with the sin, we cannot single out the sin to be punished so there’s no reason to hate it.
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I’m thinking for times like when someone “comes out” and tells you they’re gay. If it’s a friend, naturally you will be upset, but hopefully you still want to be their friend. You can make it clear that while you don’t approve of homosexuality, you will always be their friend.

I once got very upset and decided not to go to church (brilliant solution! helped immensely! NOT! :nope: ) I told a cousin that I was close to and he flipped out at me. He told me I was going to hell and not to speak to him anymore because he didn’t associate with people going to hell. 😦 I also told my sister. She said she could understand why I was upset and that she hoped I figured my way through my problems soon. She encouraged me to keep praying, too. :o Though neither my cousin nor my sister condoned my skipping mass, my sister let herself love me seperate from that while my cousin hated me because it. After a short period of thinking, I returned to mass, due highly to the help of my sister and despite the hinderance of my cousin.
 
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MariaGorettiGrl:
After a short period of thinking, I returned to mass, due highly to the help of my sister and despite the hinderance of my cousin.
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I think this is a good example of where this saying actually makes sense. I seldom hear good examples like this.

My trouble with the phrase is in its ubiquitous use as a code word for “judge the sinner.” That may be in fact what your cousin did. Can you hate and condemn without first judging?

Alan
 
My trouble with the phrase is in its ubiquitous use as a code word for “judge the sinner.” That may be in fact what your cousin did. Can you hate and condemn without first judging?
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You’re right. Too often even the best teachings people manage to twist into the worst excuses for bad action.
 
I don’t think it’s judging in and of itself that is wrong. We are called on to make judgements every day to be able to live. Is this alternative better than that alternative? Is eating lettuce healthier than eating meat? Is this person better suited to be my mate or some other person.?

Judging sin is much trickier though because we are all starting from the same position of being sinful ourselves, and it starts degenerating into “your sin is worse than my sin.”

To me, the keys are in two concepts from the Bible. First off, why do you look at the splinter in your brother’s eye while ignoring the beam in your own. First of all, it’s hard to see around the beam, so it’s hard to tell what is actually in your brother’s eye. Second, until you’ve gone through the struggle of removing your beam, you can’t understand the struggle your brother might be going through himself. Sin is attractive, deceptive and compulsive, and overcoming it is hard work, most often not to be taken on by ourselves.

That brings us to the second important concept. that of the Good Samaritan. It is seen in Jesus picking Peter up when his faith fails him after he steps out of the boat. It is seen in Simon of Cyrene when he helps to carry the cross. We are not in this alone, and can’t carry the weight of sin in this world on our own. We need each other,and we need Jesus to continually lift us up when we fail. Since he is no longer physically present, that means that he has to do it through* us*, the Body of Christ. We have to be there to lift each other up and help carry each other’s crosses.

Since most of us have bought into the idea of “rugged individualism” and think we can do it on our own, we are reluctant and/or resistant to the offers of help that will come our way, most often unsolicited. For an unsolicited offer to help to be accepted one of two conditions has to exist. Either the person is so desperate that “any port in a storm” looks good, at least for the time being; or the person must have credibility with the person needing help, and they must perceive the help as being lovingly offered rather than coerced.

It’s not just that Catholics are judgmental; many are, some aren’t. It’s that human beings are judgmental. You would hope that in Christ’s own Church we would be getting past that, but Satan’s biggest tool is pride, and judgement just feels so darn satisfying and makes my ego feel so good! As Alan has noted on numerous threads, and as I have also tried to, if you want your message to be heard, it needs to come as help from a loving brother who really cares and isn’t being condescending about it.

I’m going to be there when my brother needs help with his cross, and I’m sure praying that someone will be willing to help with mine rather than standing on the sidelines criticizing me for having one.
 
O.K. I understand and agree with everything that has been said. We ought all to consider each other’s sin as the priest considers our sins in the confessional … with charity and understanding and forgiveness … not forgetting the mote in our own eye.

But Hitler’s name was mentioned above. Surely this was not the kind of criminal that you could resist condemning with an outcry. And perhaps because so few people were willing to condemn (even the voices of Church leaders in Europe were notably muffled) … his criminality became more horrible than anything the modern world has seen.

Isn’t this happening again … right now in America. Haven’t we just gone along with whatever the radicals wanted … so pacific in our thinking and tolerance that they have sensed their opportunity and have pushed for more and more outrageous violations of common sense and human decency?

Tell me it isn’t so. And why it isn’t so.
 
The confusion in the judging realm is the following:

We are called to make judgments all the time. As one said, we make judgments on who should be our mate, our friends, and even our enemies.

We are called to make judgments on behavior that is good or evil all the time. Feeding the poor is “good”. Aborting babies is “evil.”

We are called to make judgments on public policies. A large military is good because we can protect the dignity of people even beyond our borders. A large military is evil because it causes us to be imperialistic or effective despots preventing the free expression of independent peoples. (Hmm, good people can make opposite judgments which should always give us cause to be reticent to be too fixed in some judgments).

However, as Christians, we have to recognize that the judgment of individuals as good or evil is beyond our purview but is exclusively God’s. We also have to believe that every person is called by God and capable of submitting at any time to the Redemptive Love of Jesus Christ requiring to always be hopeful and prayerful for the repentance and reform of even the most evil among us.
 
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Orionthehunter:
We also have to believe that every person is called by God and capable of submitting at any time to the Redemptive Love of Jesus Christ requiring to always be hopeful and prayerful for the repentance and reform of even the most evil among us.
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And in the end, judgment doesn’t transform; it creates resistance and perpetuates the cycle of pain. Only love transforms.
 
I just thought of sonething.

Remember the Word cuts both ways.

You can use judgment to divide or to unite.

If you say, “ooh, if you do that you’re icky and I don’t want to know any more about it” then you are dividing. You’re telling a person you feel less united to them because of their sin.

A totally opposite strategy would be, “ooh, I see you. I see you’re just like me. On the surface you may be a sinner but inside I see you are a soul like me. You are wearing a different mask, and although you almost had be fooled, I saw some of your light shining through so I know you are, like me, a child of God no matter how hard you finhd it.”

OK a bit wordy, but instead of saying “get away from me you sinner” you can say, “welcome to my presence. We are all sinners here so you are safe from our judgment. Oh, yeah, we’ll tell you all about the speck in your eye but only for laughs and/or to the extent you want our help in fixing it.”

Around here we just know sin is our common weakness, so we discuss it, help each other, but don’t push each other away. Observing sin in others is something done by people’s best friends and worst enemies alike. The motivation behind it is what is important, because I think the real spiritual victim of an accusation is often the one doing the accusing! If a person is falsely accused, the Beatitudes say they’re blessed, so why get all defensive? Either you are innocent and accusations are blessings to you straight from God if you endure them kindly, or you are guilty and they are valuable information you can use to become a better person. I say let’s punish anyone who gets defensive when insulted! 😃

By the way, any posts I’ve written before now don’t count in the anti-defensiveness contest, please. :o

Alan
 
Around here we just know sin is our common weakness, so we discuss it, help each other, but don’t push each other away.
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That’s certainly not the vibe I get from people when the topic of same-sex attractions comes up…it’s more like:
ooh, if you do that you’re icky and I don’t want to know any more about it
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and
get away from me you sinner
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LCMS_No_More:
That’s certainly not the vibe I get from people when the topic of same-sex attractions comes up…it’s more like:

and
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LCMS,
I’m sorry that has been your experience here. I’ve read some of the threads you’re surely referring to, and understand where you’re coming from. Please know you are loved and valued for who you are no matter what - and be patient with us poor sinners.
 
We are called to admonish, not judge, one another in Christ. This is the charitable and compassionate thing to do for a fellow believer who has fallen into wrongdoing. We are not to judge others, but we can judge, make a critical assessment of their actions as contradicts Catholic teaching and biblical principles. The tricky part as a fellow sinner is to not allow our own lack of virtue to command our words and attitudes, which is what Jesus warned about.

This said, I agree with the OP that others too often turn this teaching against sincere and caring Christians to be mute about all sin, lest they give the appearance of judging or offend feelings. This certainly serves the agenda of the devil to not warn us of our wrongdoing/sinfulness. Of course, when respectfully confronted with the offense of their sinful action, that person may predictably turn the table and point the finger outward “Who are you to judge?” as a way to shift the focus from their sinful action. This should be no surprise.

My point being, abuses occur on both the delivery and receiving end of what should be brotherly/sisterly admonishment.

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teach andadmonishone another in all wisdom, and sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God.” (Col. 3: 16)
 
I share goravens sympathy that LCMS has found judmental attitudes here. I know I can come off as judgmental at times, and I do not intend to be this way. We all have temptations and sinful habits, and being judgemental is one of mine.

I find that as I grow in my faith and in knowledge of myself, it is easier to stop judging other people so much. (The somewhat ironic thing is, I am now more set in my beliefs of what is right and what is wrong.) Taking the example of SSA, I am much more sympathetic to those who struggle with that, because I now identify my former use of contraception as a disordered use of God’s gift of sexuality too. But I’m also much surer that neither same sex attraction or the desire to contracept are in keeping with God’s plan. Sin really does try to enslave us so I applaud those who do struggle with SSA or contraception or whatever sin people fight, as long as they are struggling and fighting to not sin.

In the famous story of the woman caught in adultery, Jesus said that those without sin should cast the first stone. When we really know ourselves, our sins and our weaknesses, it much easier to not judge others so harshly. Jesus not only spared that adulterous woman her life, but He offered her a new life by telling her to go and sin no more. He never gave approval of her sin; in fact at another point He held up new standards for adultery saying any man who even looks at a woman with lust commits adultery. He maintained His standards against sin, but He showed great love to the sinner.

Reconciling how to maintain high standards with kindness towards others can be tricky. I truly want to leave the judging of people’s souls to God. If that doesn’t always come across by me or other Catholics in these forums, I ask those of you who are offended by it to not judge us too harshly either.
 
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gardenswithkids:
Reconciling how to maintain high standards with kindness towards others can be tricky. I truly want to leave the judging of people’s souls to God. If that doesn’t always come across by me or other Catholics in these forums, I ask those of you who are offended by it to not judge us too harshly either.
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It’s interesting how you put that.

It’s almost like a lot of the judging we do, is assume the other person is judging and accuse them thereof.

So we get completely distracted from the issue of high standards, and argue who has moral high ground.

Does that have anything at all to do with your point?

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
It’s interesting how you put that.

It’s almost like a lot of the judging we do, is assume the other person is judging and accuse them thereof.

So we get completely distracted from the issue of high standards, and argue who has moral high ground.

Does that have anything at all to do with your point?

Alan
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Ah, but what about when we know that the other person is assuming that we are judging that they are judgemental about our judgements, eh? :cool:

What about that? :confused:
 
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