Judgmental Catholics

[Coder]

1 Corinthians 5:10
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people,
not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world. But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person. For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within? God will judge those outside. "Purge the evil person from your midst."

usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians5.htm

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Mystery5:

Ah, but what about when we know that the other person is assuming that we are judging that they are judgemental about our judgements, eh?

What about that?

May I rearrange it so you can check I’ve understood this right? I’ll go back to front.

our judgements - so we are judging them.

they are judgemental about our judgments: for example, they resent that I judge them and judge me for doing so.

now according to the other person, I don’t appreciate that in them, at least they are so assuming. It might not have bothered me at all that they were offended by my judgment, so they could have been mistaken that I am particularly disturbed that they aren’t happy with my judging them. Did that follow from your question? I can’t stand to say something in one sentence when I can spread it to two pages.

What about that? Well, I suppose it’s like the old question, “why is a crow?”

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

1 Corinthians 5:10
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people,
not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world. But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person. For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within? God will judge those outside. "Purge the evil person from your midst."

usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians5.htm

You know, I really wish you hadn’t brought that up. All I can think of is that maybe Paul was having a Bad Hair Day.

That is one of my favorite excuses ever since a good friend and coworker told me “you know, with you every day is a bad hair day.” That was the second time he commented on my hair; the previous day he say, “Oh, I see you’re sporting that ‘Albert’ look again.”

In sincerity, though, expelling the evil person from your midst involves being able to judge, so how does that compute? Plus, didn’t Christ eat with these sorts of People?

I haven’t read a lot of context, but this makes me wonder whether we’re really supposed to act like Jesus, or just obey His commands. Still, He told us not to judge. I guess that just means the judges better be squeaky clean.

IOW, I’m stumped.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

felra:

My point being, abuses occur on both the delivery and receiving end of what should be brotherly/sisterly admonishment.

This is a very good point. I think we should take correction or even angry argument less as a personal jab and use it as self-examination. I grew up thinking correcting someone was an act of love, only to find out most people don’t seem to think that way.

OTOH, knowing that people are as high strung as they are, a person trying to correct another has to use techniques that appeal to the listener, or they might just as well not say anything.

Maybe it sounds like I take sides in this, but mostly I just want to help facilitate meaningful, honest discussion. I also agree with the commercial slogan “medicine doesn’t have to taste bad to be good” in that admonishment can come in many forms. It doesn’t have to be confrontational.

One of the most convincing ways to “convict” another person, I think, is to stick staunchly to the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount, and when someone is talking nonsense, ask them questions to allow them to think it through deeper until they find a conflict themselves, and convict themselves. I was taught that technique, believe it or not, in a Pascal programming class in about 1980. It was a specific technique on how we could work on team members and critique each others’ work in the most efficient way, without arguing or being shy. If anyone is interested maybe I’ll start a thread explaining how they taught that (to my 25 year old recollection).

Alan

 

[ncjohn]

1 Corinthians 5:10
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people,
not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world. But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person. For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within? God will judge those outside. "Purge the evil person from your midst."

usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians5.htm

Boy, I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen this one thrown out, while totally ignoring all the passages that deal with not judging, not to mention the direct teachings of Jesus who recognized that it is the sinners who need to be saved and freely associated with them on a regular basis. Given that we are all sinners and evil, I guess we’ll have to start by purging ourselves!

If we want to start a “battle of Bible verses” how about this one: “Do not speak evil of one another, brothers. Whoever speaks evil of a brother or judges his brother speaks evil of the law and judges the law. If you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save or to destroy. Who then are you to judge your neighbor?” James 4: 11-12.

I specifically do NOT want to start that battle, nor do I want to be trying to read anyone’s heart and soul. I want to help them wherever I can, and hope they’ll do the same for me when I’m struggling.

 

[ncjohn]

And I just re-read that post of mine and realized that I ended up sounding judgmental of Coder.

I apologize for that as it was not my intention. I guess the frustration just came through and my fingers got faster than my brain.

I will now go do my penance… Mea culpa.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Alan, I think you understood my point, but I get dizzy as that discussion continues further. So I’ll move onto another point.

I think the way to reconcile I Corinthians 5 with the other passages of the Bible may lie in determining if the sinner is struggling with sin, versus abandoning the faith in favor of sinning. We can’t always read that outright, but sometimes we get some good clues. The case of the Corinthian’s involved a man living in sin with his father’s wife. That situation gave scandal to the whole community, and St. Paul points out that kind of immorality wasn’t even found among pagans.

In ancient Corinth, I imagine there was a Christian man whose son and wife deeply hurt him, and if the Corinthians tried to be non-judgmental of that situation they ignored his pain. Ignoring grave sin isn’t loving. If someone decides to leave a faith community that tolerated immorality, who could blame him? So the souls of all those who are scandalized are at risk. And leaving people to wallow openly in their sins when they continue to damage their own dignity and risk their eternal salvation isn’t loving either. By pointing out grave sin even to the point of excommunication, those who are sinning may come to repent and those who are scandalized may regain or hold onto their faith.

When people struggle with sin and temptation, they will sometimes fail. Jesus offers struggling sinners the Sacrament of Reconciliation so we can be reconciled with God and the whole community which we may have offended. But when Christians live openly sinful lives and refuse to repent, God allows us to disassociate from those people. Some people can even manage to do that in loving ways towards all. But continuing to tolerate openly sinful behavior under the guise of being loving, isn’t loving towards anyone.

 

[Mystery5]

AlanFromWichita:

You know, I really wish you hadn’t brought that up. All I can think of is that maybe Paul was having a Bad Hair Day.

That is one of my favorite excuses ever since a good friend and coworker told me “you know, with you every day is a bad hair day.” That was the second time he commented on my hair; the previous day he say, “Oh, I see you’re sporting that ‘Albert’ look again.”

In sincerity, though, expelling the evil person from your midst involves being able to judge, so how does that compute? Plus, didn’t Christ eat with these sorts of People?

I haven’t read a lot of context, but this makes me wonder whether we’re really supposed to act like Jesus, or just obey His commands. Still, He told us not to judge. I guess that just means the judges better be squeaky clean.

IOW, I’m stumped.

Alan

Dear Alan,
I think the Corinthians had a lot of problems in their church. Their city had a big following of the pagan snake cult, there was lots of wild stuff going down. Sort of like sin city, maybe comparable to San Fransisco today. There was a lot of division within the Church there, and a lot of influences by the local attitudes. So, I think he was advising them not to tolerate any of that stuff within the Church, but saying that they should stay out of the business of the rest of the world.

So, what I glean from that passage is that the Church has a right to regulate and confront it’s own members about their sins, but that we are removed from the world in general, need to interact with it in order to make a living, but should not judge the world and it’s sins. Therefore, I think that generally we are instructed to mind our own business when it comes to the sins of others.

 

[ncjohn]

gardenswithkids:

I think the way to reconcile I Corinthians 5 with the other passages of the Bible may lie in determining if the sinner is struggling with sin, versus abandoning the faith in favor of sinning.

I think that is where the big problem comes though because it requires us to be able read someone’s heart and motivations. I can tell you that I have compulsions that drive me continually to some of the same sins over and over again. Yet in spite of that, I deeply love God, trust in His all-knowing mercy, and go on with my life. As another example, we had a woman at church who was an EMHC during a period when she had 3 children by 3 separate fathers, none of whom were her husband. She is one of the most judgmental and “holier than thou” people I have ever encountered, openly judging anyone to anyone who will listen. Yet I do not for a moment question her love of God and her good intentions to do the right thing in spite of her struggles.

Is my sin lesser or greater than hers? Should one or the other, or both of us, be “cast out?” Are we to judge just on what we see? If I sit around surfing internet porn and nobody sees it (not saying I do this!!) but my brother is openly carrying on with his neighbor’s wife, is one of us better or worse? Is one of us “abandoning our faith in favor of sin?” Which one? How do you know? How can you know what struggles are involved or what our state of devotion is?

Judging hearts and souls is very dangerous business, which is why we are called to remove the “beam” in our own eyes first to make sure we are pure enough to do so. I know I haven’t reached that point yet, as every time I receive the grace to peck away a little of the beam I understand my brother’s struggle a little more clearly and I am forced to cut him the same slack I need to be able to remain in the Body.

 

[Mystery5]

1 Corinthians 5:9-11

*9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men;
10 not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber – not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
13 God judges those outside. “Drive out the wicked person from among you.” *

So, from the rest of the quoted chapter you can see that Paul states that we are not to judge the world, that God will. We should only worry about those within the Church. And we are not to “eat with one”. Does that refer to Holy Communion? So, I take it from this passage that the sins of those outside of the Church are none of our concern. So, next time you all get in a knot about the decline of morals, gay marriage, hedonism, then remember this passage. We aren’t supposed to be worrying about the sins of those in the world. We need to go into the world in order to make a living. Most of us pay too much heed to the world.

 

[mhansen]

This is just my personal point of view, but I’m going to go with Jesus on this one. If He said don’t judge, I’m going to refrain. Somewhere in the Gospels it is written, “You will be judged by the measure you use to judge others.” In that context, I think I’ll abstain from judging others entirely, and leave that to God, just to be on the safe side. (If you listen closely, you can hear me dropping the first stone…anybody else want to pick it up?)

It’s interesting that the only one who was fit to judge (Jesus Christ) did none of the judging. Sure, there are instances where He had to put people in their place (Pharisees for the most part), but He sure as heck didn’t walk around pointing fingers at anyone.

Mike

 

[mhansen]

1 Corinthians 5:10
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people,
not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world. But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person. For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within? God will judge those outside. "Purge the evil person from your midst."

usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians5.htm

Wow, “not even to eat with such a person.” That’s harsh. Thank God Christ didn’t have to listen to Paul, or He would have missed a lot of meals. You must go hungry a lot youself, or do you take your meals alone?

Mike

 

[cardenio]

Separate the sin from the sinner. Love the sinner. Hate the sin.

 

[mhansen]

cardenio:

Separate the sin from the sinner. Love the sinner. Hate the sin.

That sounds great on paper, but how would you apply it in a situation such as that quoted from Paul in 1 Corinthians, where we’re not supposed to associate or eat with the person? How would you separate the sin from the sinner in that circumstance? I can’t sit down with a man and not also sit with his sins. Or in this case, I can’t choose to NOT sit with a man’s sins without avoiding the sinner entirely.

Mike

 

[iserve]

I would rather leave judgement to God, as only He knows the hearts of individuals. As for me, I am only too happy to evaluate my relationship to those with whom I associate, and with whom I share the worship of God, using the precepts put forward in Scripture.
For example, there are people with whom I associate, some of whom I dearly love, but who I know are not living according to God’s laws. I limit my contact with them because I do not want to fall into laziness or persuasions that could turn me from the truth. I hope and pray that all of them will someday find the truth, but I do not fool myself into thinking they are heading in a good direction. There are others who occaisionally sin, but whose hearts and minds are on the right path. We agree on the truth and and do not embrace sins, but reject them as mistakes and part of our fallen nature. These are the people with whom I choose to spend time because they are fellow journeyers who seek to be the best that they can be. I worship God with them because we are a community of believers who want to spend eternity with God, who tells us that we will be a ciommunity in heaven. I want my children to be around these folks because they are willing to admonish and willing to share their love, to teach and to consider everyone equally. I trust their ability to evaluate what is the best course, and to pull for one another in good times and bad.
I do not feel the need for the flock to invite the wolf into our midst in order to prove our love for others. We can reach out and invite others to come in as changed individuals, but if this is not possible, they are free to go out and live the lies they believe and hold onto. I feel comfortable in this because the truth is not mine, but HIS. The true Catholicism is not an opinion, but a way of life.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

Gilbert Keith:

We live in a sick world. It is getting sicker. Are we supposed to be passive and shut up?

No we are not to be passive.

The ones who use the “do not judge” rule for others are usually the most judgemental themselver. To them, we are suppose to be the tolerant of their position while they can be intolerant of our posigion.

Well, that does not work for me. I am intolerant and I state it. If I see something is wrong I will point it out. If they pull the “do not judge” routine on me, tough. I do not care. Wrong is wrong.

We have to stand up for what is right.

PF

 

[buffalo]

What does the following Scripture and Catechism Quote mean?

For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12What think you? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them should go astray: doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the mountains, and goeth to seek that which is gone astray?
13And if it so be that he find it: Amen I say to you, he rejoiceth more for that, than for the ninety-nine that went not astray.
14Even so it is not the will of your Father, who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
15But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
16And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.
17And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
18Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
And from the Catechism:

And from the Catechism:

**1829 **The *fruits *of charity are joy, peace, and mercy; charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction; it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion: Love is itself the fulfillment of all our works. There is the goal; that is why we run: we run toward it, and once we reach it, in it we shall find rest.

1435 Conversion is accomplished in daily life by gestures of reconciliation, concern for the poor, the exercise and defense of justice and right, by the admission of faults to one’s brethren, fraternal correction, revision of life, examination of conscience, spiritual direction, acceptance of suffering, endurance of persecution for the sake of righteousness. Taking up one’s cross each day and following Jesus is the surest way of penance.

 

[gardenswithkids]

ncjohn:

I think that is where the big problem comes though because it requires us to be able read someone’s heart and motivations.

Yes, that does present a problem, and that is why I will leave it to God to ultimately judge all of our souls. Sometimes we don’t even fully understand our own motives and hearts, what less the hearts and motives of others.

While we can’t judge hearts and motives, we can judge words and actions. If a person’s words and actions clearly indicate they are persistent in their sins and have no intention of trying to change, while we can’t truly know their hearts or motives for this, we can try to correct them. As buffalo sights from the Catechism above, fraternal correction is one of the fruits of charity. Sometimes efforts to correct for serious sins and scandal involve separating a person from the rest of the community, (hence jails exist). Doing that, doesn’t mean we are declaring them as going to h*ll, because we leave ultimate judgement to God.

Ncjohn used the example of someone who has multiple children by multiple fathers. I assume she does not she encourage others to do this, but has instead repented, changed her ways and tried to raise those children as well as she can. If she slips and fails, God still offers her forgiveness. But if she is encouraging other women to commit immoral behavior with multiple men, removing her from the position of EMHC would be appropriate, lest she lead others to sin.

We should assume the best, but if someone presents us with clear indication that they have no intention of even trying to stop wrong behavior we shouldn’t judge that their behaviors aren’t sinful. Sometimes failing to judge an action as wrong judges it as okay by default. That is also passing judgement.

 

[mhansen]

OK, I’ll play…

buffalo:

What does the following Scripture and Catechism Quote mean?

For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12What think you? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them should go astray: doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the mountains, and goeth to seek that which is gone astray?
13And if it so be that he find it: Amen I say to you, he rejoiceth more for that, than for the ninety-nine that went not astray.
14Even so it is not the will of your Father, who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
15But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
16And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.
17And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
18Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

This is typical of the problem we have when we selectively read Scripture. For every 10 passages you find me for one side of an argument, I can find you at least 10 for the other side. But here, this is interesting for a special reason. I think you should also have made bold verse 18. This is all one speech to the disciples, so we have to take it just that way, as one continuous “unit.” That being said, either the job of “rebuking” is for the Church ONLY, NOT the layman, or we ALL have the power to loose and bind, since these two topics follow each other in succession in the same passage. It would be ridiculous to assume that Jesus spoke to all of us only up to verse 17, and then only to the disciples in verse 18.

In cases where you can find passages with two conflicting views, such as this passage and Jesus saying “Do not judge”, I think we have to look at the Spirit of the Scripture, and not the letter. Jesus didn’t judge, and He was without sin. I, on the otherhand have sin, so my spirit tells me I shouldn’t judge. It’s not my place. The Church’s perhaps, as we see here, but not mine (or yours).

buffalo:

And from the Catechism:

And from the Catechism:

**1829 **The *fruits *of charity are joy, peace, and mercy; charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction; it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion: Love is itself the fulfillment of all our works. There is the goal; that is why we run: we run toward it, and once we reach it, in it we shall find rest.

1435 Conversion is accomplished in daily life by gestures of reconciliation, concern for the poor, the exercise and defense of justice and right, by the admission of faults to one’s brethren, fraternal correction, revision of life, examination of conscience, spiritual direction, acceptance of suffering, endurance of persecution for the sake of righteousness. Taking up one’s cross each day and following Jesus is the surest way of penance.

This is great, but rarely practiced. Beneficence, fraternal, friendship, LOVE…these are all key words, the likes of which I rarely see in one man’s rebuke of another, unfortunately. If people did it with the spirit of love, I would agree with this, but (I’m not saying EVERYONE), most people do it without beneficence, friendship, or love. They do it almost out of spite, and for an “I told you so” type feeling. Wrong motivation.

Mike

 

[ncjohn]

buffalo:

And from the Catechism:

**1829 **The *fruits *of charity are joy, peace, and mercy; charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction; it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion: Love is itself the fulfillment of all our works. There is the goal; that is why we run: we run toward it, and once we reach it, in it we shall find rest.

1435 Conversion is accomplished in daily life by gestures of reconciliation, concern for the poor, the exercise and defense of justice and right, by the admission of faults to one’s brethren, fraternal correction, revision of life, examination of conscience, spiritual direction, acceptance of suffering, endurance of persecution for the sake of righteousness. Taking up one’s cross each day and following Jesus is the surest way of penance.

I don’t think anyone is arguing against your point Buffalo, or saying that we shouldn’t correct–at least that is not what I am saying. As noted in the part I highlighted however, it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous. That indicates that it isn’t self-righteous and judgmental, which is what this whole thread is about. Yes, we need to correct each other, but we need to recognize that our own house is not in order and deal patiently and lovingly with others who share that universal condition.

“It is friendship and communion: Love is itself the fulfillment of all our works.”