Judgmental Catholics

[vern_humphrey]

Gilbert Keith:

But when you shift the ground of the discussion to people who are downright evil, people like Hitler for example, do you not judge them for what they transparently are without you being the hypocite? When Hitler was rounding up Jews, were we devout Catholics supposed to just pray and be humble and wait for our bishops to stop twiddling their thumbs and start issuing anathemas? Or were we supposed to fight Hitler and his ilk with every weapon at our command … including the judgment of him as a maniac and master of genocide?

Hitlers are very rare, and to quote General Hershey, “We don’t have him in stock any more.”

What I see too often are people just like you and I, who are judged, not for putting Jews in gas chambers, but for such great sins as nagging their husbands or leaving the toilet seat up.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

I think that it would be useful if you could evidence your claim that “many” lack the “gentleness” accorded with “admonishing”, as a way to provide a reality check for myself and others who want to appreciate your concerns (and your subjective scale for determining judgmentalism).

You’re not targeted in my post…but, I’m sure you remember the epic story of Cinderella…

Can you please produce quotes (minus source) of some of these outrageous and rude and uncharitable comments by these “certain” posters?

Only too happy:

Pedophilia is a manifestation of homosexuality, i.e. homosexuality = pedophilia! They are not two seperate dysfunctional behaviours.

It is only the liberal apologists of homosexuality who try to maintain a semantic difference between homosexuality and pedophilia, when pedophilia is just another fetish manifestation of homosexuality.

The homosexual’s search for happiness has usually been found in alcoholism, drug addiction, suicide, homicide, self-abuse, child-molestation, and other frequent anti-social behaviours.

This poster then went on to give examples that imply that all homosexual persons can be equated to John Gacy and Jeffery Dahmer.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

VERN

Yes, Hitlers are rare.

Would you agree that abortionists are not so rare?

Would you agree that serial killers are not so rare?

Would you agree that child molesters are not so rare?

Would you agree that drug peddlars to the young are not so rare?

Would you agree that people who knowingly spread venereal disease to others are not so rare?

Would you agree that genocide in other countries besides Germany has not been so rare?

Would you agree that physically, sexually, and psychologically abusing the elderly and the infirm is not so rare?

I guess my point is that there is a lot more evil in the world than Hitler. I only raised him as one of the most extreme. If you would be willing to judge Hitler a maniac and murderer, why would you hold back judging all these others who seem to relish bringing so much evil into the world?

And how can anyone fight such people without first recognizing that they are evil?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Gilbert Keith:

VERN

Yes, Hitlers are rare.

Would you agree that abortionists are not so rare?

Would you agree that serial killers are not so rare?

Would you agree that child molesters are not so rare?

Would you agree that drug peddlars to the young are not so rare?

Would you agree that people who knowingly spread venereal disease to others are not so rare?

Would you agree that genocide in other countries besides Germany has not been so rare?

Would you agree that physically, sexually, and psychologically abusing the elderly and the infirm is not so rare?

I guess my point is that there is a lot more evil in the world than Hitler. I only raised him as one of the most extreme. If you would be willing to judge Hitler a maniac and murderer, why would you hold back judging all these others who seem to relish bringing so much evil into the world?

And how can anyone fight such people without first recognizing that they are evil?

Would you agree that all the people are entitled to a trial?

Would you agree that a person accused of being an abortionist just might not be guilty?

Would you agree that a person accused of being a serial killer just might not be guilty?

Would you agree that a person accused of being a child molester just might not be guilty?

Would you agree that a person accused of being a drug peddlar to the young just might not be guilty?

Would you agree that a person accused of being knowingly spread venereal disease to others just might not be guilty?

Would you agree that a wife accused of committing adultry just might not be guilty?

Would you agree that a man accused of abusing his wife just might not be guilty?

 

[felra]

LCMS_No_More:

Can you please produce quotes (minus source) of some of these outrageous and rude and uncharitable comments by these “certain” posters?

Only too happy:

Pedophilia is a manifestation of homosexuality, i.e. homosexuality = pedophilia! They are not two seperate dysfunctional behaviours.

It is only the liberal apologists of homosexuality who try to maintain a semantic difference between homosexuality and pedophilia, when pedophilia is just another fetish manifestation of homosexuality.

Okay, this is a person yelling “You stupid idiot sinner! REPENT, you fool!”?? This does not at all sound like a personally directed statement. I would see this as an opportunity to inform this poster of his misinformation/misconceptions opf the phenomenon of SSA, direct him/her to a reliable source, and/or to take him/her to task and ask for their source documentation.

The homosexual’s search for happiness has usually been found in alcoholism, drug addiction, suicide, homicide, self-abuse, child-molestation, and other frequent anti-social behaviours.

Ditto–if you disagree or believe that this poster is misinformed/ignorant regarding comorbidity factors for SSA, then same as above. I really do not see where flagrant ignorance or misinformation can be equated with judgmentalism in the flavor, tenor of the above cited posts.

This poster then went on to give examples that imply that all homosexual persons can be equated to John Gacy and Jeffery Dahmer./

???

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Gilbert Keith:

I guess my point is that there is a lot more evil in the world than Hitler. I only raised him as one of the most extreme. If you would be willing to judge Hitler a maniac and murderer, why would you hold back judging all these others who seem to relish bringing so much evil into the world?

In my particular case, I do not judge Hitler. If I were to single him out for judging among others, than it would be “relativistic” for me to condemn him without condemning others. I realize that Hitler is a great tool for shaking “do not judge” people out of their alleged “absolute” principles. Most of them fall apart at this point. Many would be afraid to bless their enemies if they think it is “truly” supposed to be an enemy. God bless Hitler and those who helped them. May they find eternal peace if it be Your Will, Father.

And how can anyone fight such people without first recognizing that they are evil?

I fight people who are destructive, not evil. I cannot tell if they are evil. I might colloquially call what they do is “evil” but really that should be my code word for “destructive” or “dangerous”

I need not condemn another’s heart to kill him, if I think that’s What Has To Happen for me to remain alive.

Alan

 

[vern_humphrey]

AlanFromWichita:

I need not condemn another’s heart to kill him, if I think that’s What Has To Happen for me to remain alive.

Alan

I can hear old Captain Buster Skelton talking now, “Gen’n’mun, you never hate your enemy. You respect him.”

Buster Skelton served with Merrill’s Marauders behind Japanese lines in WWII, and if could respect and not hate his enemies, so can we all.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Well, if we can’t “judge” Hitler, maybe we can judge Hitler’s ideas. Not all ideas are alike. Some ideas are terrible. Hitler had some terrible ideas.

So, when we have to make a decision about whose advice to follow, or which political leader to vote for, we should…

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Al Masetti:

Well, if we can’t “judge” Hitler, maybe we can judge Hitler’s ideas. Not all ideas are alike. Some ideas are terrible. Hitler had some terrible ideas.

Yes. This is a good illustration of the two contexts of the word. We do not “judge” him personally, but based on what we know of his ideas, we can “judge” them. In the first sense I’m assuming that Hitler had problems with his personal relationship with God or ill motives or whatever (maybe true, but not for me to decide) while in the second sense I’m using my God given senses to see this guy is doing something dangerous and out of fear for my own life and/or freedom I would advocate taking his.

So, when we have to make a decision about whose advice to follow, or which political leader to vote for, we should…

Good question.

I’ve been around these people personally, and it’s very difficult to ascertain much about these people except the ideals they claim publicly. Even talking to them personally, many of them can be charming. That is, until you come up with some subject like creation or evolution. Then all bets are off because almost every politician I met that was actively involved in politics are insane about this matter, on one side or other.

I think all you can do is look at the record, pay attention to what some of their friends and detractors say, give them both a fair chance, go into the voting booth, and flip a coin for which one is probably Least Damaging. Either that or you vote for whichever party your parents belonged to, and staunchly defend anybody in your own party and attack with great venom anyone who challenges them.

A bit cynical, but our of dozens of politicians I know, maybe one of them I believe actually thinks things through, but even then only if it supports his conclusion will you ever hear about it. Oh, and that’s one of the “good” ones.

Alan

 

[Tibbar]

MariaGorettiGrl:

I’m thinking for times like when someone “comes out” and tells you they’re gay. If it’s a friend, naturally you will be upset, but hopefully you still want to be their friend. You can make it clear that while you don’t approve of homosexuality, you will always be their friend.

I once got very upset and decided not to go to church (brilliant solution! helped immensely! NOT! :nope: ) I told a cousin that I was close to and he flipped out at me. He told me I was going to hell and not to speak to him anymore because he didn’t associate with people going to hell. I also told my sister. She said she could understand why I was upset and that she hoped I figured my way through my problems soon. She encouraged me to keep praying, too. Though neither my cousin nor my sister condoned my skipping mass, my sister let herself love me seperate from that while my cousin hated me because it. After a short period of thinking, I returned to mass, due highly to the help of my sister and despite the hinderance of my cousin.

People often have issues of their own and their “judgment” is imperfect. God’s grace is powerful and ultimately it is the Spirit of God at work that leads us back.

We are responsible to others in Christ and sometimes we are called to warn them. We all need to remember that we are not the ultimate authority in their lives. God has given us free will and the ability to choose Christ or reject Him. Fortunately for us all, God gives us multiple opportunities in this life to repent and to turn back to Him.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Speaking of judgment, KWCH, one of our local TV stations, is running streaming video of the Dennis Rader (aka BTK serial killer, aka Wichita’s “Freddie” for 30 years) right now (started 40 minutes ago at 9 am US Central Daylight time (GMT-6) on Wednesday.

kwch.com

This guy has been getting satisfaction from torturing especially women and girls I guess, and has terrorized Wichita for 30 years, having done 10 killings in that time and gloating over them in letters to the media. He once staked out my sister-in-law’s house several days after she had an altercation with him – it was over a dog issue; he was the dogcather in Park City, just north of Wichita.

Last night I talked to a good friend I’ve known a long time; turns out his brother-in-law’s mother-in-law was killed by Rader.

It seem around here, the DA is going ballistic because he confessed to everything and many think Nola Foulston (the elected DA) wanted a trial to show off all the evidence they had. So they’re doing the next best thing and getting all the exposure they can from the sentencing, which just started. People are going ballistic because Rader shows no emotions. Until today I never saw him other than newspaper photos, and it’s true. He’s just sitting there like he’s watching some totally neutral things.

I guess Rader is still playing the media, even after getting caught by a phony classified ad the the police placed, that worked as designed to fool Rader into giving himself away in an effort to gloat, he is still playing it up. According to another article in today’s paper, he said during an NBC dateline interview that he “felt like a star.”

I’m watching it now. If anyone wants to see what a man looks like who behaves in a way many would consider pure evil (that’s the whole ostensible legal strategy in today’s sentencing hearing; to show how terrible he is that his sentencing won’t get appealed). So right now we have a live case of terrible, evil, behavior and we get to see the person sit there and hear himself described in a nefarious way with about as much emotion as sitting there waiting for a bus or something.

I have avoided coverage of this up until now, but I find it interesting. I’m looking at this normal looking guy sitting there in a suit, if the sound was off I would never guess that he is this moment sitting there in a courtroom having incredible sickening things described that he did.

Caution very explicit terrible things are being described right as I typed this, but I put it on this thread because I actually do find it interesting. Look at this man sitting there listening to a lawyer questioning some police guy I guess, and knowing what he did trying to see if he really is human at all. If you saw him in the store, would you have any idea? Would your child know this was a “stranger?”

Ugg – they just talked about how Rader told the police how much harder it was to strangle a person than he’d guessed, from his experience at strangling dogs and cats.

Anyway, it’s ugly but it’s interesting. I doubt I’ll watch much more coverage, because I have useful things to do. You might want to turn up the sound gradually because these are some pretty awful things I’m hearing. I don’t know how much more I can listen to about what he did to this one little girl.

I have poo-pooed the media frenzy over this thing, but now I think I see what it’s about. This is some serious stuff, and he killed a relative of my friend, and stalked out one of my relatives. I’m trying to imagine whether, if I could get away with it, if I would put a shot right through his head right now so there is zero chance he will get to act again. If I had a button labeled, “Rader die right now” would I push it? I’m looking at this guy and know I will never be able to sit on a jury for a capital offense.

Alan

 

[vern_humphrey]

Al Masetti:

Well, if we can’t “judge” Hitler, maybe we can judge Hitler’s ideas. Not all ideas are alike. Some ideas are terrible. Hitler had some terrible ideas.

So, when we have to make a decision about whose advice to follow, or which political leader to vote for, we should…

Let’s assume your neighbors are having marital problems. The people on one side of you say, “It’s all John’s fault! He drinks treats Mary badly.”

The neighbors on the other side say, “It’s all Mary’s fault! She takes pills and doesn’t properly care for the kids.”

THAT is what we are talking about when we talk about “judging.”

Neither John nor Mary are Hitler. We are not at war with them. They do not have concentration camps where they kill millions of people, nor have their closest associates been tried and convcited of crimes against humanity.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

VERN

Do you really think John and Mary are candidates for judging?

How about abortionists, drug peddlars, pedophiles, infanticide … etc. Our country is falling into a cesspool of immorality and you want to talk about not judging John and Mary?

Give me a break.

 

[Al_Masetti]

AlanFromWichita:

I’ve been around these people personally, and it’s very difficult to ascertain much about these people except the ideals they claim publicly. Even talking to them personally, many of them can be charming.

I think all you can do is look at the record, pay attention to what some of their friends and detractors say, give them both a fair chance, go into the voting booth, and flip a coin for which one is probably Least Damaging. Either that or you vote for whichever party your parents belonged to, and staunchly defend anybody in your own party and attack with great venom anyone who challenges them.

A bit cynical, but our of dozens of politicians I know, maybe one of them I believe actually thinks things through, but even then only if it supports his conclusion will you ever hear about it. Oh, and that’s one of the “good” ones.

Alan

Well … suppose they say things that make us feel all warm and fuzzy… how can we tell what they would REALLY do or how they would REALLY vote?

Maybe by their fruits… What have they actually accomplished , deeds… and are those deeds accurately represented? Are their any conflicts between what they say and what they do in other areas? Who do they hang out with? Which organizations do they belong to and or are active in and or are officers of? And who are the founders and officers of those organizations and what do the CV’s of those founders and officers look like?

Now… are we starting to judge the individuals or their ideas???

And what if that review reveals some startling things that cause to have DOUBTS about the individual … not enough to convict in a court of law perhaps… but maybe enough to not want to make that person … say … a signature trustee of our retirement account.

What if…

 

[vern_humphrey]

Gilbert Keith:

VERN

Do you really think John and Mary are candidates for judging?

How about abortionists, drug peddlars, pedophiles, infanticide … etc. Our country is falling into a cesspool of immorality and you want to talk about not judging John and Mary?

Give me a break.

Who ARE these abortionists, drug peddlars, pedophiles, etc.?

When you put a name to them – when you accuse an actual person of being an abortionist, drug peddlar or pedophile, you need more than just gossip or a paragraph posted on the internet.

 

[Al_Masetti]

vern humphrey:

Let’s assume your neighbors are having marital problems. The people on one side of you say, “It’s all John’s fault! He drinks treats Mary badly.”

The neighbors on the other side say, “It’s all Mary’s fault! She takes pills and doesn’t properly care for the kids.”

THAT is what we are talking about when we talk about “judging.”

Neither John nor Mary are Hitler. We are not at war with them. They do not have concentration camps where they kill millions of people, nor have their closest associates been tried and convcited of crimes against humanity.

On the other hand, what if I hear Mary screaming “call the police; he’s killing me” and then I hear the unmistakeable sound of a fist hitting flesh. I haven’t seen anything … and maybe they’re rehearsing a play or fooling around with their new computer generated voice program or have their TV set turned up too loud.

So, now, should I call the police or would that be judgemental???

If it’s real… well there is is no time to lose…On the other hand, am I being judgemental.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Al Masetti:

On the other hand, what if I hear Mary screaming “call the police; he’s killing me” and then I hear the unmistakeable sound of a fist hitting flesh. I haven’t seen anything … and maybe they’re rehearsing a play or fooling around with their new computer generated voice program or have their TV set turned up too loud.

So, now, should I call the police or would that be judgemental???

You’re getting close to playing the fool here.

The legal authorities should be called – but you don’t know who’s at fault.

When I was at Fort Benning, a sergeant of mine was arrested by the Military Police – the next door neighbors heard exactly what you described and called the MPs. When they arrived, they found the house in a shambles, the wife hysterical, and both husband and wife showing marks of combat. They hauled the husband off, of course, despite his claim that he was trying to stop her from “beating the hell out of the kids.”

When they released him next morning, he returned home to find both his children dead.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Al Masetti:

Well … suppose they say things that make us feel all warm and fuzzy… how can we tell what they would REALLY do or how they would REALLY vote?

If you’re asking in the context of current affairs, it doesn’t seem to matter much, as far as I can tell. It seems campaigns on both sides are becoming campaigns of feelings, which seem to drive votes more than logic.

On both sides, some scare me because they lie about what they intend to do. Others scare me because they follow through with what they said they’d do. Another category would include Hillary, who scares me in both ways.

Maybe by their fruits… What have they actually accomplished , deeds… and are those deeds accurately represented? Are their any conflicts between what they say and what they do in other areas? Who do they hang out with? Which organizations do they belong to and or are active in and or are officers of? And who are the founders and officers of those organizations and what do the CV’s of those founders and officers look like?

Now… are we starting to judge the individuals or their ideas???

Unless you personally are an insider, you are judging based on what you have been fed by media outlets in print, audio and video perhaps, also with internet sites from people who have various motives and honesty levels, and what commentators you may or may not like have said about them, and from discussions with others probably with no more direct information. You know nothing of them personally, and have no way to tell lies from truth first hand. I’ve seen some on TV, but they know darn well they are on TV and every one of them is acting. They may or may not do the right thing, but they all are aware that their every word is being recorded for permanent history on the record. If you want honesty you have to hear what’s not on the record, which only happens when presidents slip up maybe and usually end up saying “I didn’t know the mike was on.” Those rare instances are when I think we may even come close to learning something.

Now, you see these characters, and you have your opinions in combination with all those media as well, and you either like what they do or not, or somehow vote for one to run things as the other.

You can judge the person. I’ll judge what I know of the image I see and vote the best way I can determine.

And what if that review reveals some startling things that cause to have DOUBTS about the individual … not enough to convict in a court of law perhaps… but maybe enough to not want to make that person … say … a signature trustee of our retirement account.

What if…

Then I highly recommend you do not sign that person as a trustee or your retirement account. That is, unless you also want to “judge” their hearts and wallow in glory to see them suffering in hell like some people think you will, if you go to heaven and they go the other day. Why not get that process started before we die?

Alan

 

[vern_humphrey]

Al Masetti:

Well … suppose they say things that make us feel all warm and fuzzy… how can we tell what they would REALLY do or how they would REALLY vote?

Maybe by their fruits… What have they actually accomplished , deeds… and are those deeds accurately represented? Are their any conflicts between what they say and what they do in other areas? Who do they hang out with? Which organizations do they belong to and or are active in and or are officers of? And who are the founders and officers of those organizations and what do the CV’s of those founders and officers look like?

Now… are we starting to judge the individuals or their ideas???

When you’re voting, you are acting in an official capacity – you have a duty to vote, and that duty includes careful consideration of all the factors you discussed.

However, when you choose to vote for Smith instead of Jones, you don’t condemn Jones as a person – you merely select the man you feel would better represent you and your views.

 

[vern_humphrey]

AlanFromWichita:

If you’re asking in the context of current affairs, it doesn’t seem to matter much, as far as I can tell. It seems campaigns on both sides are becoming campaigns of feelings, which seem to drive votes more than logic.

This is a natural consequence of abandoning the Constitution, which is what the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Reform Act did. This act was based on the theory that “Political discussion is too important to allow ordinary citizens to participate.”

The idea was that organizations with political agendas are somehow baaaaad. So those organizartions, from NOW to the NRA, were shut out. And look what rushed into the vaccuum!http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif