Junipero Serra statue beheaded, splashed with red paint in Central California

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe:

What happened was wrong and people have done very little to remediate it.

Serious question then, what do you suggest that we do?
Having grown up myself in the 1970s, I was never part of the world that wanted to eradicate Native American culture and all I’ve ever seen are attempts to preserve it or even put it on a pedestal. Some of these attempts have been misguided, but the good intention was usually there.

We are not Native American, but my father had a great interest in the tribes that used to be around where he grew up, and he read many books.
My buddy right now is working at a hospital in Acoma, a beautiful but sadly poor place that I like to visit.
I contribute economically where I can. I agree with a number of the Native American protests and activist actions as long as they aren’t rioting or vandalizing, which they usually are not (I have a general objection to any kind of destruction or violence in the name of “protest” no matter who is doing it).

We can’t turn back the clock 100 or 200 years and un-erase the culture. Those of us living today didn’t even have a hand in erasing it and largely never supported erasing cultures, because socially we were taught that cultures should be preserved (unlike the people 100 or 200 years ago who were taught differently in line with the thinking at that time). We can’t un-canonize Fr. Serra.
So what exactly are we supposed to do? Take down all his statues and all the historic missions (which won’t happen anyway because of the tourism draw) and be ashamed of history and pretend it didn’t occur?

I don’t think that taking down public statues is a terrible idea. They represent a person who brought great harm to a culture, language, and people. They don’t have to go down forever or be destroyed but removing them from the public eye could help to ease tensions.

I do not agree with the destruction. While their culture was destroyed it does not give them the right to do it to the people who did it to them.

The churches should begin the process of revamping and removing Spanish traditions that could easily be replaced by native ones.

Offering facilities as gathering places for natives solely furthering their culture (not Catholic based events), putting money into research and the development of libraries.

 

[Saxum]

The Church should begin to do many of the things you speak of

The Native American community could start asking their parish priests for inculturation and could form lay groups to promote a genuine spiritual renewal of the NA Community. They could write hymns in the traditional language, produce Mass vestments etc. It’d be great to see the vibrant culture and traditions used to glorify God and promote holiness among the tribes.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

the other North American Saints!

It’s interesting that I have not seen many protests or complaints about other North American saints, such as the North American Martyrs. Not sure whether that’s because they were friendlier to the local culture, which is entirely possible but I haven’t researched it, or just because their work took place outside California in areas that are less populated/ less prone to protest, so no one is going to go drive into the woods to vandalize a shrine to St. Jean de Brebeuf.

 

[Saxum]

Not sure whether that’s because they were friendlier to the local culture, which is entirely possible but I haven’t researched it, or just because their work took place outside California in areas that are less populated/ less prone to protest, so no one is going to go drive into the woods to vandalize a shrine to St. Jean de Brebeuf.

I love California and have visited multiple times but it’s an extremely liberal place. I think that’s the reason for the protests. The culture is more influenced by the regressive left.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Saxum:

the other North American Saints!

It’s interesting that I have not seen many protests or complaints about other North American saints, such as the North American Martyrs. Not sure whether that’s because they were friendlier to the local culture, which is entirely possible but I haven’t researched it, or just because their work took place outside California in areas that are less populated/ less prone to protest, so no one is going to go drive into the woods to vandalize a shrine to St. Jean de Brebeuf.

Those in New France actually respected the culture of the people much more. In fact, the core of the existing information about the language and the culture comes from books written by those missionaries. If you want to really and truly understand these people you actually have to learn French so you can read the great tomes composed by missionaries. Some of the documents they created (Bible, Mass translation, etc) in the native languages are some of the greatest documents to this day!

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe:

The Church should begin to do many of the things you speak of

The Native American community could start asking their parish priests for inculturation and could form lay groups to promote a genuine spiritual renewal of the NA Community. They could write hymns in the traditional language, produce Mass vestments etc. It’d be great to see the vibrant culture and traditions used to glorify God and promote holiness among the tribes.

Quite frankly, you’re underestimating the damage done. A good comparison would be telling an abused child to tell their parents how to parent. The Church needs to make these steps. They are in a much better place than these damaged and broken people.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The churches should begin the process of revamping and removing Spanish traditions that could easily be replaced by native ones.

The thing is, the Spanish traditions are also traditions, and historic. Getting rid of one culture in favor of another culture seems to be doing over again the very thing that we are now saying was objectionable. I agree with making a place for Native American culture and letting the two cultures co-exist separately, as both are a part of our history.

The English-speaking British people decimated a lot of the Irish culture and language of my forebears, to the point where languages and customs also died out, but I don’t feel the answer there is to destroy the British culture in Ireland and have everybody go back to speaking Irish Gaelic and so forth. The things that came over with the British have become a part of people’s lives and part of the history of the area as well.

Offering facilities as gathering places for natives solely furthering their culture (not Catholic based events), putting money into research and the development of libraries

I think these are things that we, as the members of the Church, should be supporting, because it’s a humane, decent and peaceful step. I’m not sure that it’s the place of the Church hierarchy to be supporting these things, or rather, given that we are all “The Church”, it is not just some bishops and priests in an office somewhere, we can and should do things without waiting for or even expecting the hierarchy to do it.

Missionaries of all faiths do cultural harm to some extent, but they also do good. They also often were brutally killed because someone local in a power position perceived them as a threat to the culture. I would hope that missionaries today of all faiths go about things in a kinder, gentler way of incorporating cultural traditions (not to say that some of that did not also happen in the past; the Church reflects quite a bit of cultural inclusion, maybe not from Native Americans specifically, but from many earlier cultures) but I also don’t think they need to apologize 100 or 200 years later for things they did in the past that were following the established way of thinking then. The Catholic Church did many things throughout history that in hindsight to us now just look rotten or wrong, so it would be apologizing or trying to “make up for it” all the time if we went down that path.

One other thing about cultures that get taken over: very often they were vulnerable in some respect, and therefore whoever got there first was going to take over and harm the culture. Not saying that made it all OK but it probably made it inevitable. Better to have it happen in the name of Jesus than in the name of Kim Jong Un or Stalin or similar.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Tis_Bearself:

Not sure whether that’s because they were friendlier to the local culture, which is entirely possible but I haven’t researched it, or just because their work took place outside California in areas that are less populated/ less prone to protest, so no one is going to go drive into the woods to vandalize a shrine to St. Jean de Brebeuf.

I love California and have visited multiple times but it’s an extremely liberal place. I think that’s the reason for the protests. The culture is more influenced by the regressive left.

Yeah, it’s not more Liberal than many places in Canada or on the north East Coast. California and NYC are known for their parallel ideas and laws. There are two big factors—the people who did the damage to the native culture and the advancement in the quality of life since then.

 

[Saxum]

The English-speaking British people decimated a lot of the Irish culture and language of my forebears, to the point where languages and customs also died out, but I don’t feel the answer there is to destroy the British culture in Ireland and have everybody go back to speaking Irish Gaelic and so forth. The things that came over with the British have become a part of people’s lives and part of the history of the area as well.

Good comparison. The Irish people including such great men as Padraig Pearse promoted the Irish language and culture and it revived somewhat. I know people from western Ireland who grew up speaking Gaelic as a native language. Restoration can be achieved.

The Native Americans can’t rely on anyone else to restore their culture; they have to do it for themselves. These kinds of cultural movements have to be grass root; it has to arise from within the Community. Anything imposed top down wouldn’t be authentic cultural renewal.

 

[Saxum]

There are two big factors—the people who did the damage to the native culture and the advancement in the quality of life since then.

There’s also a third factor: the need to move on, rebuild and remember that St. Junipero Serra brought the Indians the Gospel of Jesus Christ - the most important thing ever.

 

[MargaretofCortona]

What does this have to do with anything?

 

[MargaretofCortona]

The thinking of that time was that the white race was superior. Many blacks lost their culture, language, etc. as a result of slavery. I wouldn’t say Father Serra shouldn’t be held accountable, but I would say he should not be judged according to our standards and understanding. It is like saying a slave-master shouldn’t be held accountable. The inhuman treatment of slaves will never be acceptable. It is difficult for me to think some of them didn’t know better is raping slaves and subjecting them to harsh treatment. Idk if I can agree with that.

 

[Donkey]

You are correct.
…while collective global effort to homogenize education in what is called Common Core goes practically unnoticed and unhindered.
America as we have known it is on borrowed time and at risk with each presidential election.
This persistent assault on St. Junipero is an assault on Christianity.
†
Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the Fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen.

 

[Saxum]

As a Englishman, I’ve always admired the USA’s constitution and political system. I’ve visited the US several times and I’ve noticed that many younger Americans are abandoning the freedoms that made America great. It’s my personal opinion that the colleges are instilling cultural Marxism; the vandalism of the statue is a symptom of this indoctrination and I think Americans should stand up and protect their culture - and statues of our great and holy Saint! America - and Europe - needs more priests like St. Junipero Serra!

 

[Saxum]

…while collective global effort to homogenize education in what is called Common Core goes practically unnoticed and unhindered.

America as we have known it is on borrowed time and at risk with each presidential election.

I agree and I’m greatly saddened by it. America is the last bastion of Christianity in the western world because the political establishment in Europe is anti-Christian and we’re deeply immersed in the culture of death. Americans need to learn by our mistakes and stand up and fight the cultural marxists who drag everything through the mud - including our great Saint Junipero Serra.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

As a Englishman, I’ve always admired the USA’s constitution and political system.

Wow, I think you’re the first English person I’ve ever heard say that…
I think the US system is a pretty good one, myself, but there are many who disagree, particularly when things are not being decided solely by pure majority vote. There are reasons why the system is not set up that way, but someone who just had a majority vote and lost anyway, a la Hillary Clinton, or to use a less savory example, some of the Southern segregationists back in the 60s and 70s, sees it as the will of the minority being forced on them.

The English system, on which ours was based originally, is also interesting to me…would never work here, and I have a few beefs with it, but it’s not a bad system. I am much happier having it for a starting point than the systems of some other countries. Or maybe that’s just because I’m mostly British Isles in my background

 

[Saxum]

The English system, on which ours was based originally, is also interesting to me…would never work here, and I have a few beefs with it, but it’s not a bad system. I am much happier having it for a starting point than the systems of some other countries. Or maybe that’s just because I’m mostly British Isles in my background

The British system isn’t too bad but it has it’s problems. It’s based on Parliamentary Sovereignty but this doesn’t technically exist anymore because Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own devolved Parliaments. The EU also caused major problems and introduced a revolutionary concept: constitutional statutes. This was revolutionary because the UK has an uncodified (sometimes called ‘unwritten’) constitution that constantly adapts and grows over time. The time has come for the UK to have a written constitution and I would base it on the USA - with the obvious difference that we’d retain the Monarchy.

Wow, I think you’re the first English person I’ve ever heard say that…

I love the American system. Many Englishmen such as John Locke and Thomas Paine contributed the ideas that created the US system; in many ways, it’s the product of radical English political thought. These Englishmen went to America to escape the class system and feudalism that sadly still exists in the UK. America is a far freer country with far more opportunities. If I had the opportunity, I’d leave the sinking ship that is Europe and move to the USA - the last bastion of Christianity in the western world.

 

[Jestersage]

The time has come for the UK to have a written constitution and I would base it on the USA - with the obvious difference that we’d retain the Monarchy.

What, not Canadian Constitution?

“1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.”

Okay, maybe not.

 

[Saxum]

Okay, maybe not.

I’ve been to Vancouver six times on holiday. I like Canada because it feels like a better version of the UK in many respects - and it was nice to see Her Majesty on the currency. The only downside is the extreme political correctness. If Professor Peterson is right, then Canada is far more PC than the UK - and I’m surprised there aren’t similar protests against the great Canadian Saints.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Jestersage:

Okay, maybe not.

I’ve been to Vancouver six times on holiday. I like Canada because it feels like a better version of the UK in many respects - and it was nice to see Her Majesty on the currency. The only downside is the extreme political correctness. If Professor Peterson is right, then Canada is far more PC than the UK - and I’m surprised there aren’t similar protests against the great Canadian Saints.

Because at least on the East Coast those “great Canadian saints” are part of a VERY closely held French heritage. Attacking a French saint would sic all of Quebec and Montreal on you.