Just a suggestion

[Tandem]

A bad idea. We had enough of this before the Civil rights movement in the 50’s and 60’s.

I see no problems with Sam’s Club nor with the innumerable country clubs… all with limited memberships.

Ive been in plenty of privately owned businesses that have signs up reading “We have the right to deny service to anyone for any reason”.

Ive seen this in local restaurants, dry cleaners, a video rental place, hardware store, etc. Im not sure why they thought to place them, but Im sure they had good reason, and Im sure if it was not accurate, they would not waste time posting it.

Actually those signs mean nothing. The business owners can post anything they want to, but they can be challenged in court.

Since those businesses are all open to the public, they are all required to conform to the applicable laws. If, however, they would be declared as private clubs with declared requirements for membership, then they might be exempt - as long as no one challenges their requirements in the courts.

As for me, I’d bake anyone a cake, if I were a baker. It’s none of my business what they’re going to do with the thing–and it is just a thing not a “statement” for the seller only the buyer–if that’s how they wish to see it. The same with flowers, etc. I am not the morality police. I don’t tell people what they can and cannot do.

Well said.

It also means businesses can be intimidated…

No, businesses cannot be intimidated… Only people can. The owners of the business. Maybe this is hairsplitting… though I don’t thinks so.

 

[mikekle]

How about for being Black or being Gay? She cannot refuse service because of this, and if she does she will rightfully be out of business quite soon.

Well, its not like the owner has to explain themselves or their reason for refusal, although it is wrong, Im positive many private business owners have denied service over race or sexuality, but I would assume this is not the reason they gave for doing so, if they gave any reason, sort of like going for a job interview, if the employer does not like something about a person, they can find a reason not to hire them, and they do not have to explain or tell the person why they were rejected, even if they were forced to explain, they could always come up with some other reason.

I did this very thing when I owned a landscaping company, I had a lady request a bid for service one time, when I went to the bid, I found she was a practicing witch, as was her 13 yr old daughter, they were upfront about it, and quite proud of it too, she owned a small local ‘herb shop’ that sold witchcraft type stuff, books, powders, etc. I gave her the quote but later told her I could not provide service as she was too far out of the way, of course this was not the real reason, I had plenty of other clients close to her, it would have been profitable for me to take her on, but I didnt like how proud they were of being witches and didnt want to get involved with such a person, but she never took it further, she accepted my explanation and I guess she found someone else.

 

[Strydersroom]

Well, its not like the owner has to explain themselves or their reason for refusal, although it is wrong, Im positive many private business owners have denied service over race or sexuality, but I would assume this is not the reason they gave for doing so, if they gave any reason, sort of like going for a job interview, if the employer does not like something about a person, they can find a reason not to hire them, and they do not have to explain or tell the person why they were rejected, even if they were forced to explain, they could always come up with some other reason.

I did this very thing when I owned a landscaping company, I had a lady request a bid for service one time, when I went to the bid, I found she was a practicing witch, as was her 13 yr old daughter, they were upfront about it, and quite proud of it too, she owned a small local ‘herb shop’ that sold witchcraft type stuff, books, powders, etc. I gave her the quote but later told her I could not provide service as she was too far out of the way, of course this was not the real reason, I had plenty of other clients close to her, it would have been profitable for me to take her on, but I didnt like how proud they were of being witches and didnt want to get involved with such a person, but she never took it further, she accepted my explanation and I guess she found someone else.

Was she a good witch or a bad witch?

 

[e_c]

Tandem - You just push the problem back a step. It solves nothing. “You can’t get a membership card because you’re xyz.” SCOTUS here we come.

 

[Della]

No, businesses cannot be intimidated… Only people can. The owners of the business. Maybe this is hairsplitting… though I don’t thinks so.

Yes, businesses can be intimidated. They can be fined and forced into line. The government does it all the time.

 

[Tandem]

Tandem - You just push the problem back a step. It solves nothing. “You can’t get a membership card because you’re xyz.” SCOTUS here we come.

Sam’s Club and all the different country clubs - with limited memberships operate under this principle. At least one can TRY to open a limited business, and see what happens. Maybe it would work, maybe it would not. In court anything can happen - if the case would even be entertained.

Yes, businesses can be intimidated. They can be fined and forced into line. The government does it all the time.

The owners of the business can be intimidated. A business is a legal entity, but not a natural person.

 

[Della]

The owners of the business can be intimidated. A business is a legal entity, but not a natural person.

The owners don’t pay the fines out of their own pockets, as in family-owned businesses, rather the company has to pay the fine. How the company handles the loss is up to it’s directors and stockholders, and yes, they are people, but they are not the company.

 

[mikekle]

Was she a good witch or a bad witch?

She was into black magic, but oddly, she also seemed to be a caring parent for her teenage daughter, from what I saw anyway…weird?

I was in her shop one time, they had all kinds of little bags of powder, twigs, trinkets, etc, I did not like being in there.

 

[PRmerger]

I’ll bake a gay person a cake. But not for a wedding. Since gays can’t get married, no matter what the supreme court says. Personally, I don’t see why these folks can’t just take their business elsewhere:shrug:

If I were a baker or florist I would have a sign in my shop that stated something like, *“I will be happy to offer my services at your gay wedding. However, 100% of what you pay me will be donated to [fill in the blank with some program that upholds the CONJUGAL view of marriage]. So you will, in essence, be supporting a program that endorses marriage between 1 man and 1 woman.”
*

#problemsolved

 

[Rosebud77]

If I were a baker or florist I would have a sign in my shop that stated something like, *“I will be happy to offer my services at your gay wedding. However, 100% of what you pay me will be donated to [fill in the blank with some program that upholds the CONJUGAL view of marriage]. So you will, in essence, be supporting a program that endorses marriage between 1 man and 1 woman.”
*

#problemsolved

Interesting idea; doubt you would get away with it though!

 

[LethalMouse]

In my state by technical designation all small bars are private clubs. They had smoking. The county said no. By designation it is one step away from them saying you can’t smoke in a house.

In NYC for a while they said you could not buy a large soda… combine the two and they can check you didnt have more than 8 ounces at home in your cup…

The logic grows to when and where is property rights a thing? No area with 5 grocery stores in 50 miles should be able to cut a small group from ever getting food…

But we are also one step away from mandatory attendence to social functions for private individuals.

And your private club theory is difficult… many provate ckubs have been forced by law to admit based on certain criteria…

And in the remeberance there is mandatory tolerance for only that which we officially declare and when…

You are protected against age discrimination ONLY after age 40.

Read you can not be discriminated against for age ONLY if you are a certain age…

That about sums up how the anti discrimination laws sort of play out even when not official, you can’t be discriminated against for being X ONLY in reality if you are a certain brand of X.

 

[PRmerger]

Interesting idea; doubt you would get away with it though!

Why couldn’t I get away with it?

Are you saying it would be illegal for me to say I’d make a donation to a particular pro-“traditional” marriage charity after doing business with a gay couple?

If so, I don’t think that’s correct.

Or are you saying this wouldn’t dissuade gay couples from seeking my business?

 

[Viki63]

If, as a previous poster said, there’s no such thing as a gay wedding, ergo there’s no such thing as a gay wedding cake.

So a baker could make a fancy cake and the purchasers could use it for any event they chose.

.

 

[Della]

Why couldn’t I get away with it?

Are you saying it would be illegal for me to say I’d make a donation to a particular pro-“traditional” marriage charity after doing business with a gay couple?

If so, I don’t think that’s correct.

Or are you saying this wouldn’t dissuade gay couples from seeking my business?

I’d like to jump in here, if I may.

You may "get away with it’, but it would have a couple of negative effects, as I see it.

Firstly, it would be judgmental on your part. Sure, you’d be right to point out their error, by telling them you’re donating the money earned from their “wedding” to a cause that negates their own, but would that be the best way to evangelize them at that particular time? It seems more like getting back at them for doing something immoral. And sure such a “marriage” is immoral, but would you be reminding them of that to win their souls or to “rub their noses in it?” Correcting sinners is a very delicate matter. The saints have told us that we shouldn’t relish correcting others, but should do it with great love, keeping firmly in mind our own sins and failings.

And secondly, would doing that help them see “the error of their ways” or only harden their resolve against Church teachings and the moral law? I think that latter.

If you wanted to donate all the money earned from catering a gay “wedding” you would be free to do whatever you pleased with your earnings. But telling them that, it’s going to an organization antithetical to their lifestyle, at that time in their lives, would be counterproductive if your intention would be to correct them in love and for the good of their souls, and not just to make a point. Not saying you’d want to be unkind or uncharitable, but I rather think they’d think so.

 

[LethalMouse]

I’d like to jump in here, if I may.

You may "get away with it’, but it would have a couple of negative effects, as I see it.

Firstly, it would be judgmental on your part. Sure, you’d be right to point out their error, by telling them you’re donating the money earned from their “wedding” to a cause that negates their own, but would that be the best way to evangelize them at that particular time? It seems more like getting back at them for doing something immoral. And sure such a “marriage” is immoral, but would you be reminding them of that to win their souls or to “rub their noses in it?” Correcting sinners is a very delicate matter. The saints have told us that we shouldn’t relish correcting others, but should do it with great love, keeping firmly in mind our own sins and failings.

And secondly, would doing that help them see “the error of their ways” or only harden their resolve against Church teachings and the moral law? I think that latter.

If you wanted to donate all the money earned from catering a gay “wedding” you would be free to do whatever you pleased with your earnings. But telling them that, it’s going to an organization antithetical to their lifestyle, at that time in their lives, would be counterproductive if your intention would be to correct them in love and for the good of their souls, and not just to make a point. Not saying you’d want to be unkind or uncharitable, but I rather think they’d think so.

But here in lies the crux, do you want up to the hooker and say “you evil devil you suck!” No

But when can you sort of when the hooker rallies up and comes to you and says you MUST participate and rent her a room by the hour for her Johns?

When the Hooker says you basically have to let her set up a booth in your shop and do her will.

Can you then be less “charitable”?

My sins are mine, I do not come to you or them or her and demand you assist me.

I consider the difference between a shoplifter who tells you they once took a soda from walmart. Do you scold them?

Maybe not, maybe explain morality etc evangelize etc.

Now you wake up as someone is holding your tv and making way out your door? Might you be entitled to say “Hey! You blankety blank put my blankety blank tv down!”

Here we are not talking of sinners doing sins but mandating participations in some form or another. And in a sense, knowing what can be done to you if you refuse, they use a manner of force like the hooker saying “let me set up shop or my pimp will beat you”. Convoluted and legal but such is morality.

Immoral but legal, a man put a ad in the paper “send $50 and learn to make money from home”

Patrons recieved a nicely printed letter that stated “Put an ad in the paper asking for $50 to learn to make money from home”

Legally he did not lie and legally he did nothing wrong… but few would call this act “moral”.

 

[Della]

But here in lies the crux, do you want up to the hooker and say “you evil devil you suck!” No

But when can you sort of when the hooker rallies up and comes to you and says you MUST participate and rent her a room by the hour for her Johns?

When the Hooker says you basically have to let her set up a booth in your shop and do her will.

Can you then be less “charitable”?

My sins are mine, I do not come to you or them or her and demand you assist me.

I consider the difference between a shoplifter who tells you they once took a soda from walmart. Do you scold them?

Maybe not, maybe explain morality etc evangelize etc.

Now you wake up as someone is holding your tv and making way out your door? Might you be entitled to say “Hey! You blankety blank put my blankety blank tv down!”

Here we are not talking of sinners doing sins but mandating participations in some form or another. And in a sense, knowing what can be done to you if you refuse, they use a manner of force like the hooker saying “let me set up shop or my pimp will beat you”. Convoluted and legal but such is morality.

Immoral but legal, a man put a ad in the paper “send $50 and learn to make money from home”

Patrons recieved a nicely printed letter that stated “Put an ad in the paper asking for $50 to learn to make money from home”

Legally he did not lie and legally he did nothing wrong… but few would call this act “moral”.

I see what you’re saying but I don’t think it really addresses why it wouldn’t be good to point out another’s sins at a gay wedding–where people have guests and who expect the caterer to cater not say something about their decision to marry. We wouldn’t do it at the wedding of an adulterer who is remarrying outside the Church–a sin equally repugnant to the moral law.

And, it’s not at all like being forced into disobeying the moral law. If catering a gay couple’s or an adulterer’s wedding is abetting in sin, then don’t do it. Whether or not the law forces us to do what is morally wrong, is another issue entirely–one I definitely agree we ought not to be forced to do. But if we do accept the catering job, then that is our function, not telling those who hired us what we plan on doing with our earnings.

 

[LethalMouse]

I see what you’re saying but I don’t think it really addresses why it wouldn’t be good to point out another’s sins at a gay wedding–where people have guests and who expect the caterer to cater not say something about their decision to marry. We wouldn’t do it at the wedding of an adulterer who is remarrying outside the Church–a sin equally repugnant to the moral law.

And, it’s not at all like being forced into disobeying the moral law. If catering a gay couple’s or an adulterer’s wedding is abetting in sin, then don’t do it. Whether or not the law forces us to do what is morally wrong, is another issue entirely–one I definitely agree we ought not to be forced to do. But if we do accept the catering job, then that is our function, not telling those who hired us what we plan on doing with our earnings.

I was basing on the poster your comment was on. “Putting a sign in HIS window” far from the wedding and guests and no need to say anything.

You described some westboro baptist picketing via a present caterer. Very different things

The hooker in my story came to YOUR shop.

You did not go to HER sex party and start preaching.

 

[Rosebud77]

Why couldn’t I get away with it?

Are you saying it would be illegal for me to say I’d make a donation to a particular pro-“traditional” marriage charity after doing business with a gay couple?

If so, I don’t think that’s correct.

Or are you saying this wouldn’t dissuade gay couples from seeking my business?

Remember please that I live in Ireland and things are different here. I think the relevant parties here. well, red rag to a bull ,and they would see it as a slight and a challenge and take you to court on some flimsy legality… They do that here… …some would yes still seek your custom and thereby force you to work for them…
And they would revel in the publicity or boast about how broadminded they are!
I often wondered what would happen in a football club if cricketers demanded entry as really that is the same idea.

Ah no not illegal; sorry, tired…

 

[Della]

I was basing on the poster your comment was on. “Putting a sign in HIS window” far from the wedding and guests and no need to say anything.

You described some westboro baptist picketing via a present caterer. Very different things

The hooker in my story came to YOUR shop.

You did not go to HER sex party and start preaching.

I’m sorry, but you must be confusing me with another poster. I don’t recall writing anything about the Westboro group nor anything about putting any sign in any window.

 

[SilverShadow22]

I don’t care really. Refuse to serve me. See if I care. I’ll got to a business that will. It’s fine. Then I’ll tell my friends. And they’ll tell theirs. And so on.

Or? Or I can have a disgruntled guy filling my hamburger with who knows what. I’d rather he told me up front than get that.

Freedom should swing both ways. I’m free to buy from you? Or you’re free to sell to who you want? A bit of each? I have no problem with that.

Sort of creates business opportunities. Actually.

Peace.

-Trident

This!

Same opinion that I have, as a female, about anything designated ‘male only’. I don’t want to be there anyway. You don’t usually see men trying to break into female only clubs… Unless it’s purely to peek at the bodies within. But they don’t want to join in the activities as a matter of course. They just start their own club…