Just a suggestion

[PRmerger]

Remember please that I live in Ireland and things are different here. I think the relevant parties here. well, red rag to a bull ,and they would see it as a slight and a challenge and take you to court on some flimsy legality…

I get that there many be some really bizarre claims that are taken to court in Ireland (and here in the US, too), but I really can’t understand your point.

As a business owner I say: I will make your cake for your gay wedding, but you should know that the money you give me for this will be donated to a pro-traditional marriage charity. Every penny you pay me I will donate to that charity.

And the gay couple says: We are taking you to court for this!

And the charge is…what?

 

[PRmerger]

I’d like to jump in here, if I may.

You may "get away with it’, but it would have a couple of negative effects, as I see it.

Firstly, it would be judgmental on your part. Sure, you’d be right to point out their error, by telling them you’re donating the money earned from their “wedding” to a cause that negates their own, but would that be the best way to evangelize them at that particular time? It seems more like getting back at them for doing something immoral. And sure such a “marriage” is immoral, but would you be reminding them of that to win their souls or to “rub their noses in it?” Correcting sinners is a very delicate matter. The saints have told us that we shouldn’t relish correcting others, but should do it with great love, keeping firmly in mind our own sins and failings.

And secondly, would doing that help them see “the error of their ways” or only harden their resolve against Church teachings and the moral law? I think that latter.

If you wanted to donate all the money earned from catering a gay “wedding” you would be free to do whatever you pleased with your earnings. But telling them that, it’s going to an organization antithetical to their lifestyle, at that time in their lives, would be counterproductive if your intention would be to correct them in love and for the good of their souls, and not just to make a point. Not saying you’d want to be unkind or uncharitable, but I rather think they’d think so.

I think you misunderstand my intention here, Della.

The dilemma here is: what do business owners do who are Catholic and do NOT wish to (for example) bake a cake for a “gay wedding”.

It seems that it’s illegal to say, “I am sorry, but I will not bake a cake to celebrate something that I find disordered”.

So the solution is this: put it on the gay couple’s laps. IF they want the cake, they will know that they will be giving money to an organization that supports the nuptial view of marriage.

There is no intention to evangelize here. There is only the intention of how to get around the legal issues of being compelled to offer a service for something you find repugnant.

 

[HelenRose]

I have seen many people who are upset because they are “forced” to do business with people whose lifestyle they consider contrary to their religious belief. They consider this “force” to be a direct attack on their beliefs. Well, I have good news for them.

No one is forced to accommodate everyone from the public, if they operate their business as a private club. Just look at any country club, or Sam’s Club… they all restrict their accommodation to those who have a membership card. Or, to stay close to home, the CAF can pick and choose who will get access to the board, and it can revoke the membership privileges any time and does not have to explain it to anyone.

So the solution is simple. Just declare up front: “This business is a private club. It does not cater to the general public. You need to have a membership card in order to be admitted here. We reserve the right to refuse membership and we can revoke your membership privileges at any time. We do not have to explain our procedures.” And at the time when someone applies for a membership, they must sign a consent form and accept the rules.

That is it. You can (if you want to) declare what kind of people are not welcome. But you don’t need to antagonize anyone. You could say “only orthodox Christians are accepted (who share the owners’ value system)”.

What could be simpler?

I have an idea that if the baker had said without a jovial smile, “Yes, I will bake the cake.” The gay couple would have moved on. The couple was looking for a fight and got it.

The law may be able to force this but I doubt if the law will ever be able to make a person smile. I would be professional - no frowning or swearing - just cool and business like. Would my heart be in it? No. Would my best effort be in it? No. Would it be adequate? Yes.

Why would anyone want to buy a cake like that?

 

[LethalMouse]

I’m sorry, but you must be confusing me with another poster. I don’t recall writing anything about the Westboro group nor anything about putting any sign in any window.

You posted in response to a quote from someone who said he woulld put a sign in his window…

My response quoted your post that quoted him

Your posts description of going as a caterer and admonishing the simners AT the wedding that you said was bad I referenced as not what was being discussed but rather being more akin to tbe westboro…

The quotes are all here in writing on the internet…

 

[Della]

You posted in response to a quote from someone who said he woulld put a sign in his window…

My response quoted your post that quoted him

Your posts description of going as a caterer and admonishing the simners AT the wedding that you said was bad I referenced as not what was being discussed but rather being more akin to tbe westboro…

The quotes are all here in writing on the internet…

My response to this? Please don’t take my quotes out of context and then expect me to respond. I won’t. Thank you.

 

[Rosebud77]

I have an idea that if the baker had said without a jovial smile, “Yes, I will bake the cake.” The gay couple would have moved on. The couple was looking for a fight and got it.

The law may be able to force this but I doubt if the law will ever be able to make a person smile. I would be professional - no frowning or swearing - just cool and business like. Would my heart be in it? No. Would my best effort be in it? No. Would it be adequate? Yes.

Why would anyone want to buy a cake like that?

There was a court case in Dublin. A Christian bakery initally accepted a cake with gays and a slogan to be atop… Later they realised the implications and contacted the customer and said no and why

They got taken to court and were found guilty of discrimination. There was an appeal but nt sure of the outcome…

 

[LethalMouse]

My response to this? Please don’t take my quotes out of context and then expect me to respond. I won’t. Thank you.

OKAY!!! lets have fun with the clear proof. FIrst you quoted PRMerger via forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14075408&postcount=34 presented here:

Why couldn’t I get away with it?

Are you saying it would be illegal for me to say I’d make a donation to a particular pro-“traditional” marriage charity after doing business with a gay couple?

If so, I don’t think that’s correct.

Or are you saying this wouldn’t dissuade gay couples from seeking my business?

Which was his response to Rosebud based off his earlier post which was:

If I were a baker or florist I would have a sign in my shop that stated something like, *“I will be happy to offer my services at your gay wedding. However, 100% of what you pay me will be donated to [fill in the blank with some program that upholds the CONJUGAL view of marriage]. So you will, in essence, be supporting a program that endorses marriage between 1 man and 1 woman.”
*

#problemsolved

Note the “sign in shop” which is the entire premise for this line of conversation

To Which you responded:

I’d like to jump in here, if I may.

You may "get away with it’, but it would have a couple of negative effects, as I see it.

Firstly, it would be judgmental on your part. Sure, you’d be right to point out their error, by telling them you’re donating the money earned from their “wedding” to a cause that negates their own, but would that be the best way to evangelize them at that particular time? It seems more like getting back at them for doing something immoral. And sure such a “marriage” is immoral, but would you be reminding them of that to win their souls or to “rub their noses in it?” Correcting sinners is a very delicate matter. The saints have told us that we shouldn’t relish correcting others, but should do it with great love, keeping firmly in mind our own sins and failings.

And secondly, would doing that help them see “the error of their ways” or only harden their resolve against Church teachings and the moral law? I think that latter.

If you wanted to donate all the money earned from catering a gay “wedding” you would be free to do whatever you pleased with your earnings. But telling them that, it’s going to an organization antithetical to their lifestyle, at that time in their lives, would be counterproductive if your intention would be to correct them in love and for the good of their souls, and not just to make a point. Not saying you’d want to be unkind or uncharitable, but I rather think they’d think so.

To which I responded:

But here in lies the crux, do you want up to the hooker and say “you evil devil you suck!” No

But when can you sort of when the hooker rallies up and comes to you and says you MUST participate and rent her a room by the hour for her Johns?

When the Hooker says you basically have to let her set up a booth in your shop and do her will.

Can you then be less “charitable”?

My sins are mine, I do not come to you or them or her and demand you assist me.

I consider the difference between a shoplifter who tells you they once took a soda from walmart. Do you scold them?

Maybe not, maybe explain morality etc evangelize etc.

Now you wake up as someone is holding your tv and making way out your door? Might you be entitled to say “Hey! You blankety blank put my blankety blank tv down!”

Here we are not talking of sinners doing sins but mandating participations in some form or another. And in a sense, knowing what can be done to you if you refuse, they use a manner of force like the hooker saying “let me set up shop or my pimp will beat you”. Convoluted and legal but such is morality.

Immoral but legal, a man put a ad in the paper “send $50 and learn to make money from home”

Patrons recieved a nicely printed letter that stated “Put an ad in the paper asking for $50 to learn to make money from home”

Legally he did not lie and legally he did nothing wrong… but few would call this act “moral”.

TO Which You responded:

I see what you’re saying but I don’t think it really addresses why it wouldn’t be good to point out another’s sins **at a gay wedding–where people have guests and who expect the caterer to cater not say something about their decision to marry. ** We wouldn’t do it at the wedding of an adulterer who is remarrying outside the Church–a sin equally repugnant to the moral law.

And, it’s not at all like being forced into disobeying the moral law. If catering a gay couple’s or an adulterer’s wedding is abetting in sin, then don’t do it. Whether or not the law forces us to do what is morally wrong, is another issue entirely–one I definitely agree we ought not to be forced to do. But if we do accept the catering job, then that is our function, not telling those who hired us what we plan on doing with our earnings.

Which became the vast difference between a sign on a shop and this supposed attendance you now here speak of.

THIS ACTION is what I referred to as Westboro Baprtist due to their understanding in our pop culture for doing this rather than PRMerger’s calm window sign.

TO which you then started saying I am making things up…despite this all being in writing for literate personnel to see…

So as to " Please don’t take my quotes out of context "

I Did not, and you just got served (Drops mic and walks away)

 

[PRmerger]

OKAY!!! lets have fun with the clear proof. FIrst you quoted PRMerger via forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14075408&postcount=34 presented here:

Which was his response to Rosebud based off his earlier post which was:

Note the “sign in shop” which is the entire premise for this line of conversation

To Which you responded:

To which I responded:

TO Which You responded:

Which became the vast difference between a sign on a shop and this supposed attendance you now here speak of.

THIS ACTION is what I referred to as Westboro Baprtist due to their understanding in our pop culture for doing this rather than PRMerger’s calm window sign.

TO which you then started saying I am making things up…despite this all being in writing for literate personnel to see…

So as to " Please don’t take my quotes out of context "

I Did not, and you just got served (Drops mic and walks away)

Sorry, Lethal Mouse, but as the 3rd party in this discussion, I have to say your posts here have left me head-scratching.

What is it you’re trying to say?

 

[LethalMouse]

Sorry, Lethal Mouse, but as the 3rd party in this discussion, I have to say your posts here have left me head-scratching.

What is it you’re trying to say?

You said sign in window

She said GOING TO THE WEDDING

I corrected.

The rest was aside to what is important atm.

She claimed I was making things up, ergo I presented evidence in the form of clear proof that the convo sarted from your “sign in window”

And my refuting her claims against your theory in the form of “going to the wedding amongst guests admonishing”

it is all in writing I am so confused… how this is confusing…

 

[PRmerger]

You said sign in window

She said GOING TO THE WEDDING

I corrected.

The rest was aside to what is important atm.

She claimed I was making things up, ergo I presented evidence in the form of clear proof that the convo sarted from your “sign in window”

And my refuting her claims against your theory in the form of “going to the wedding amongst guests admonishing”

it is all in writing I am so confused… how this is confusing…

Sorry, LM. Your writing style is difficult for me to decipher.

 

[LethalMouse]

Sorry, LM. Your writing style is difficult for me to decipher.

I was barely a factor other than my first post.

The first was based on YOUR window sign premise.

After that I had to defend myself from the person who pretended they never heard of a window sign while claiming I and by extension to the original premise of yours, you were advocating attending weddings and preaching at guests…

 

[PRmerger]

I was barely a factor other than my first post.

The first was based on YOUR window sign premise.

After that I had to defend myself from the person who pretended they never heard of a window sign while claiming I and by extension to the original premise of yours, you were advocating attending weddings and preaching at guests…

Um…ok. I really don’t care enough to pursue this further except to say these 2 things:

-there was no reference in my post to any window (so perhaps that’s the source of Della’s confusion, in addition to your writing style)

-I still don’t understand your objection.

But whatevs.

My plan to put a sign in my shop still stands. I think it’s a good way to get out of this dilemma.

 

[LethalMouse]

Uhh I linked it LOL

Pr - rosebud - pr - della - LM post 29 and on…

And this is when I question the wisdom of democracy

 

[LethalMouse]

Um…ok. I really don’t care enough to pursue this further except to say these 2 things:
.

I care because falsehood is the battle cry of human kind and I either shine thru the truth ad nauseum or I would turn evil toward the species…

And before the falshoods the main point was I was actually basically agreeing with you and against false misrepresentation of what you said… now I battle the falsehoods of enemies and allies??? Idk I like truths

 

[PRmerger]

Uhh I linked it LOL

Pr - rosebud - pr - della - LM post 29 and on…

And this is when I question the wisdom of democracy

Nope.

No window in my post.

At all.

 

[LethalMouse]

Nope.

No window in my post.

At all.

Lol… wow i just got it…

So the word window???

You said in your shop she said at your wedding…

Are you a lawyer or do you have a OCD thing? Or you just felt like messing with me???

If it was for laughs… touche

If it was malice tsk tsk

If it was capacity… I stand by my questioning democracy and voting rights…

 

[PRmerger]

Lol… wow i just got it…

Yes.

Finally.

After multiple times of telling you this.

That’s probably the source of the confusion–you added something completely random.

If you use full sentences to complete your thoughts, PLUS don’t add weird random items to the discourse, I think your posts will be more easily understood.