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Iohannes
Guest
One more time, The prayers of the Foot of the altar is not part of the Mass, one cannot add the prayers of the Foot of the altar to Mass, if it is not a part of Mass.
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I
Iohannes
Guest
It was a custom in the middle east to feed other guests.
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Iohannes
Guest
Crusader said:
I at least care because of the decline of belief in the Real Presence and the great potential of sacrilege.
P
pnewton
Guest
How does receiving communion in the hand, believing in the real presence an doing so repectfully contribute to your concerns?
C
Crusader
Guest
If the celebrant and others processed into the church (which begins the processional rite) and then did this prayer it would be an illegal (and odd) addition to the Novus Ordo Mass.
They would have to take measures to make it totally discrete from the Mass itself – like retreating to the sacristy in between.
C
Crusader
Guest
It dosen’t. It’s just that some (many of which who labels themselves as “traditionals”) feel things like: receiving while kneeling, receiving on tongue, no altar girls, etc. etc. etc. are better than what the Church actually permits.
1
1962Missal
Guest
Okay, so what about the Last Gospel after Concluding Rites?
The GIRM does not indicate that the ministers must leave the sanctuary after the
So, then, the Mass is ended and it goes:
P: Dominus vobiscum.
S: Et cum spiritu tuo.
P: + Initium sancti Evangelii secundum Joannem…
Where is the abuse?
Justin
1
1962Missal
Guest
Unless, of course, there is a proper Last Gospel for the day. 
Justin
Justin
1
1962Missal
Guest
For that matter, what about the Leonine Prayers?
Justin
Justin
D
deogratias
Guest
Actually, the Leonine Prayers were suppressed by Inter Oecumenici 48j, Sep. 24, 1964
They and the Last Gospel are still a part of the liturgy of the low Mass when Mass is celebrated in accordance with the 1962 Missal but not otherwise.
Give it up and just obey Mother Church instead of fighting this every inch along the way - don’t you think it might be a matter or pride if you were the only one right in this matter and the Church was wrong?
D
deogratias
Guest
Even before the new Missal, the Last Gospel and the Leonine prayers are addressed in Inter Oecumenici
This should answer some of your other questions re: the Canon and prayers at the foot of the Altar.
I. ORDO MISSAE (SC art. 50)
- Until reform of the entire *Ordo Missae, *the points that follow are to be observed:a. The celebrant is not to say privately those parts of the Proper sung or recited by the choir or the congregation.
**c. In the prayers at the foot of the altar at the beginning of Mass Psalm 42 is omitted. All the prayers at the foot of the altar are omitted whenever there is another liturgical rite immediately preceding. **
d. In solemn Mass the subdeacon does not hold the paten but leaves it on the altar.
e. In sung Masses the secret prayer or prayer over the gifts is sung and in other Masses recited aloud.
f. The doxology at the end of the canon, from Per ipsum through Per omnia saecula saeculorum. R. Amen, is to be sung or recited aloud. Throughout the whole doxology the celebrant slightly elevates the chalice with the host, omitting the signs of the cross, and genuflects at the end after the Amen response by the people.
g. In recited Masses the congregation may recite the Lord’s Prayer in the vernacular along with the celebrant; in sung Masses the people may sing it in Latin along with the celebrant and, should the territorial ecclesiastical authority have so decreed, also in the vernacular, using melodies approved by the same authority.
h. The embolism after the Lord’s Prayer shall be sung or recited aloud.
i. The formulary for distributing holy communion is to be, Corpus Christi. As he says these words, the celebrant holds the host slightly above the ciborium and shows it to the communicant, who responds: Amen, then receives communion from the celebrant, the sign of the cross with the host being omitted.
j. The last gospel is omitted; the Leonine Prayers are suppressed.
k. It is lawful to celebrate a sung Mass with only a deacon assisting.
l. It is lawful, when necessary, for bishops to celebrate a sung Mass following the form used by priests.
**
1
1962Missal
Guest
My point is that, according to the current GIRM, the liturgical action is concluded with the profound bow of the priest, etc. to the Altar, and that, under such circumstances, the Last Gospel and the Leonine prayers would not be part of the liturgy, per se, and could not, therefore, be considered to be an abuse.
Am I wrong, or is there additional mandated action after the profound bow?
Justin
Am I wrong, or is there additional mandated action after the profound bow?
Justin
D
deogratias
Guest
It does not matter - what matters are those words; ". The last gospel is omitted; the Leonine Prayers are suppressed"
Omitted means not done, suppressed means not to be said.
The Leontine prayers were never part of the Mass by the way but only “said” after low Masses. The Last Gospel was always after Ita Missa Est - after the dismissal also.
Therefore saying they should be eliminated and suppressed applies today as it did when written …
P
pnewton
Guest
Why would anyone want to include something that we have been instructed to eliminate and suppress? This type of disobedience is why we trounce on liturgical innovaters.
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deogratias
Guest
I have also read something that I can’t currently find that cautions about mixing rites and came out when the Indult Mass was granted. It means that the TLM is to be said in accordance with the 1962 Missal and anything that applies to the NOM does not apply to the TLM and vice versa - they are two distinct missals with two different Orders of the Mass and are not to be intermixed.
I just don’t see why “1962 missal” user name, is belaboring this so much when the evidence is obvious.
If he wishes to stay after an N.O. Mass, open his Bible, read the Last Gospel and privately say the Leonine prayers - that would be in the realm of private prayer but to imply the priest can or should at this time is not appropriate and is disobedient.
I personally like saying prayers after Mass with the entire congregation but it is not permissible at the NOM and it is not done at the High Mass of the TLM either, only after low Mass.
It was a practice started by Pope Leo (ergo Leonine prayers).
It is a big mistake that many make to assume that the Liturgy before Vatican II was unchanging. It was not. The Traditional Latin Mass that I and many others prefer, did not evolve to what we recognize today until the Council of Trent being it was codified by the Council of Trent in the 16th century and even then there were exceptions made for other liturgies if they had been in effect for at least 200 years. But it was done for uniformity and so it was for many year but there were changes even after the Council of Trent - although the Mass essentially was the same from Trent until the New Missal. In the 2000 years of the Church, we still say “new” about something that is 40 years old - when what we really mean is “current” and when we say “old” what we really mean is “previous”.
Old or New, East or West, what matters is that we are all Catholics, each celebrating the Sacrifice of the Mass and giving glory to God.
I just don’t see why “1962 missal” user name, is belaboring this so much when the evidence is obvious.
If he wishes to stay after an N.O. Mass, open his Bible, read the Last Gospel and privately say the Leonine prayers - that would be in the realm of private prayer but to imply the priest can or should at this time is not appropriate and is disobedient.
I personally like saying prayers after Mass with the entire congregation but it is not permissible at the NOM and it is not done at the High Mass of the TLM either, only after low Mass.
It was a practice started by Pope Leo (ergo Leonine prayers).
It is a big mistake that many make to assume that the Liturgy before Vatican II was unchanging. It was not. The Traditional Latin Mass that I and many others prefer, did not evolve to what we recognize today until the Council of Trent being it was codified by the Council of Trent in the 16th century and even then there were exceptions made for other liturgies if they had been in effect for at least 200 years. But it was done for uniformity and so it was for many year but there were changes even after the Council of Trent - although the Mass essentially was the same from Trent until the New Missal. In the 2000 years of the Church, we still say “new” about something that is 40 years old - when what we really mean is “current” and when we say “old” what we really mean is “previous”.
Old or New, East or West, what matters is that we are all Catholics, each celebrating the Sacrifice of the Mass and giving glory to God.
M
Mysty101
Guest
…or the Precious Blood alone.
from the Norms fo r distribution & reception----USCCB
usccb.org/liturgy/current/norms.shtml
SuZ
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Mysty101
Guest
Some people really feel the need for tradition, so it is really preferable to let things slide when there is an option.
Abuse is when something is against the norms or options, not if something is different than what we know or prefer,
SuZ
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albert_cipriani
Guest
Tradition is not a human sentiment or a preference, it is the foundation of Catholicism. The Magisterium itself can only concern itself with Tradition (oral and written). Anything beyond that two-fold tradition otherwise known as the Deposit of Faith is beyond its purview.
When the norms are corrupt, then the norms are the abuse. Yours is a purely legalistic conception known as positive law which was most recently condemned by the Nurenberg trials. Everything the Nazis did, they did according to the legal norms of their corrupt regime. Surely, that shameful political standard ought not be superimposed upon the Church of Christ. – Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic
http://www.geocities.com/albert_cipriani/index.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/
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deogratias
Guest
And who pronounces the norms to be corrupt? You?
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Mysty101
Guest
albert cipriani:
usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml
SuZ
I am speaking old Catholic tradition. Norms from the old GIRM
When I speak of norms, I am referring to the GIRM, with the USCCB modifications, not some secular legal norms.
usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml
SuZ
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