M
mlchance
Guest
BarbaraTherese said:
“[T]he secret behind The Da Vinci Code was too well documented and significant for me to dismiss.” – Author Dan Brown.
– Mark L. Chance.
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“[T]he secret behind The Da Vinci Code was too well documented and significant for me to dismiss.” – Author Dan Brown.
– Mark L. Chance.
C
cenpress
Guest
TPJ, I too applaud your desire to live as Christ lived and I would gladly sit in a pew beside you at Sunday mass. But am I to infer that in simply reading a book which contains various blasphemies that I too am blasphemous? Even if I reject those blasphemies in my heart and mind?
What of history then? Are we not to study Hitler and his role in WWII because he was evil … his words were evil? Are we not to read Mein Kampf? And what about studying other religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism? Both of which reject the God-nature of Christ.
From the beginning, I suggested purchasing the book from a used bookstore. Why not check it out from your local library or borrow it from a friend? There are plenty of ways to go about reading the book w/ out directly adding to the billfold of Dan Brown.
What it comes down to is this: Reading blasphemous material doesn’t make one a blasphemer. Only by accepting those blasphemies can one become a blasphemer. There’s no good in walking through the world with blinders on. And pulling a veil over your eyes is not enough to ever decrease the power of evil in this world. We must instead go out into the world (as Christ directed His Apostles to do) and convert the nonbelievers. We must greet sin face to face, knowing Jesus is always right there beside us, and hold out our hands to those who have been misled.
It was Jesus who said we will not get into heaven alone.
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
cenpress,
You raise many interesting points. Does one sin if they read or view sinful material? Hmm, let’s think about that.
Suppose a person does not know what porn is and they just so happen to pick-up a porn magazine and wander through the pages. That is certainly not a sin because the person was totally unaware of what porn is.
However,
Say that same person was completely and fully aware of the nature of that magazine and that viewing and reading porn is a grave sin. Suppose even with that knowledge the person reads the porn magazine anyway…that would constitute a grave sin.
In the Da Vinci Code example, if we are fully aware of its sinful nature, and we partake anyway, that means we are at the very least cooperating with sin and while we may not be commiting a direct mortal sin, we are certainly at the very least commiting a venial sin just based on the fact that we are fully aware of the content and nature of the movie/book.
I don’t care if Dan Brown makes money or not…he has his own journey to account for. However, I do care when I see so many Catholics directly supporting such garbage, and sadly many of those Catholics know that the material is horrible.
You raise many interesting points. Does one sin if they read or view sinful material? Hmm, let’s think about that.
Suppose a person does not know what porn is and they just so happen to pick-up a porn magazine and wander through the pages. That is certainly not a sin because the person was totally unaware of what porn is.
However,
Say that same person was completely and fully aware of the nature of that magazine and that viewing and reading porn is a grave sin. Suppose even with that knowledge the person reads the porn magazine anyway…that would constitute a grave sin.
In the Da Vinci Code example, if we are fully aware of its sinful nature, and we partake anyway, that means we are at the very least cooperating with sin and while we may not be commiting a direct mortal sin, we are certainly at the very least commiting a venial sin just based on the fact that we are fully aware of the content and nature of the movie/book.
I don’t care if Dan Brown makes money or not…he has his own journey to account for. However, I do care when I see so many Catholics directly supporting such garbage, and sadly many of those Catholics know that the material is horrible.
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
cenpress,
BTW, I am sure enjoying Mass with you in the same pew would be a very rewarding experience…you clearly have a great love for Jesus.
Have a great weekend.
BTW, I am sure enjoying Mass with you in the same pew would be a very rewarding experience…you clearly have a great love for Jesus.
Have a great weekend.
P
Potato1
Guest
This is exactly why I buy porn, not because I agree with it, but because I wish to be educated. I also play violent videogames , not to be more aggresive but because I wish to be educated. Blastphemous material and evil works are good. I know that God is pleased and the Devil is upset every time someone reads Dan Brown’s books.
R
rocklobster
Guest
So what about Harry Potter? Is that a venial sin too?
C
cenpress
Guest
You too, TPJ
I do enjoy these sorts of discussions. And I appreciate you sharing your views. I do wish to raise one more point …
One of my favorite authors was Catholic, and strong in his faith. His name: Andre Dubus. He wrote mostly short fiction, his finest book (in my opinion) was called “Dancing After Hours.” In the book, he depicts several instances in which his characters live sinfully, committing certain acts that are (sometimes) clearly (sometimes not) morally wrong. But his trick is that he casts his characters in such a light that we, the reader, find ourselves sympathetic and somewhat understanding of the motivations that drive them to their sins. He does so, I believe, to challenge us, to help us realize there is a gray area that sometimes exists between right and wrong. And we need to fight like mad to discover the truth of the matter.
Is an author sinful when he writes a story wherein his characters sin? Is a reader sinful when he reads a story wherein certain characters sin?
It is my belief that the answer to both those questions “no.” So long as the sins of those we write/read about do not become our own. But that’s just my opinion … for what it’s worth.
And with it, I bid this forum adieu … at least, for tonight.
See you all on the flipside.
I do enjoy these sorts of discussions. And I appreciate you sharing your views. I do wish to raise one more point …
One of my favorite authors was Catholic, and strong in his faith. His name: Andre Dubus. He wrote mostly short fiction, his finest book (in my opinion) was called “Dancing After Hours.” In the book, he depicts several instances in which his characters live sinfully, committing certain acts that are (sometimes) clearly (sometimes not) morally wrong. But his trick is that he casts his characters in such a light that we, the reader, find ourselves sympathetic and somewhat understanding of the motivations that drive them to their sins. He does so, I believe, to challenge us, to help us realize there is a gray area that sometimes exists between right and wrong. And we need to fight like mad to discover the truth of the matter.
Is an author sinful when he writes a story wherein his characters sin? Is a reader sinful when he reads a story wherein certain characters sin?
It is my belief that the answer to both those questions “no.” So long as the sins of those we write/read about do not become our own. But that’s just my opinion … for what it’s worth.
And with it, I bid this forum adieu … at least, for tonight.
See you all on the flipside.
C
cenpress
Guest
As for the sarcasm, Potato1, perhaps you can save it for an occassion when it might be more appropriate and well-received. It does not belong in a Catholic forum that exists to promote mature discourse between adults and lovers of Christ. If you disagree with something I say, I invite you to challenge me with logic … the way TPL respectfully has done.
But let me clarify my stance for you so you have something else to ponder while I spend the rest of my weekend with my wife (and away from this forum):
There is a world of difference between looking at pornography and familiarizing yourself with the argument of the enemy of Christ. One looks at pornography because one is attracted to it by lust, which is a sin. One reads the argument of the enemy in order to better defend AGAINST it, thereby sticking up for Jesus and what He said, which is an act of charity. There is no similarity between the two whatsoever. It’s about arming yourself with a ready defense so you are able to face the offense with greater ease and eloquence. That’s the first thing you’ll learn apologetics 101.
But let me put it another way to make myself even more clear …
Option 1:
You refuse to read the Da Vinci Code because it is blasphemous (or, so you’ve been told). A friend of yours who has read the book and is not as strong in faith as you approaches with an attack on the Catholic church spawned from something he read in the Da Vinci Code … something you’re not sure exactly how to refute, however, because – it not being your faith – you’ve never had reason to ponder such a blasphemy … you have no response. He walks away thinking he (and Dan Brown) got the better of you.
What a perfect opportunity to have enlightened a stray sheep, shepherded him home.
Option 2:
You read the Da Vinci Code. You are now aware of all the heresies presented within. You research why said heresies are such and arm yourself with the truth offered by Catholic dogma and doctrine. Your same friend approaches, the exact same thing happens, only this time, you offer up five reasons why whatever it was Brown suggested is pure nonsense. Your friend takes to heart what you say and disregards Browns stance as merely fiction.
… I hope that helps clarify my position a little for you, Potato. If not, and you still disagree with what I’ve stated here and in other posts, I invite you to discuss the topic with me further. But don’t disrespect me and the other readers of this thread who are seriously interested in what is being discussed with your half-handed remarks. They don’t belong in a forum of this kind.
C
cenpress
Guest
After so much discussion over whether it is sinful for a Catholic – or any Christian, for that matter – to simply read The Da Vinci Code, even if one’s intent is to better equip oneself with knowledge enough to properly defend Church teaching against the heresies suggested in Dan Brown’s novel … I’d like to make one more point, which (I think) should put the whole matter to rest. (I sure hope it does)
For those of you who believe the act of reading Dan Brown’s book is inherently sinful (no matter what one’s intent), I pose this question:
Given such a belief, how do you defend (or even explain) books like Cracking Da Vinci’s Code, The Da Vinci Hoax, and De-coding Da Vinci, all of which were written by theologians and Catholic scholars? Surely you must accept the fact that these writers, these Catholic scholars, read The Da Vinci Code before penning their own books that refute the claims made by the blasphemous thriller.
How is it, then, permissible for one apologist to read the book and not another? Aren’t we all called upon to be apologists? I do believe we are.
We must never forget the words of St. Peter:
“Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you …” 1 Peter 3:15
I will leave it at that … for now, it’s time for me to get some sleep.
For those of you who believe the act of reading Dan Brown’s book is inherently sinful (no matter what one’s intent), I pose this question:
Given such a belief, how do you defend (or even explain) books like Cracking Da Vinci’s Code, The Da Vinci Hoax, and De-coding Da Vinci, all of which were written by theologians and Catholic scholars? Surely you must accept the fact that these writers, these Catholic scholars, read The Da Vinci Code before penning their own books that refute the claims made by the blasphemous thriller.
How is it, then, permissible for one apologist to read the book and not another? Aren’t we all called upon to be apologists? I do believe we are.
We must never forget the words of St. Peter:
“Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you …” 1 Peter 3:15
I will leave it at that … for now, it’s time for me to get some sleep.
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
cenpress,
Let’s look at this subject through a lens of faith. As a Catholic I often study other religions, not because I intend on becoming a member of those others religons; rather, I study them to be a more informed Catholic so I can be a stronger witness to Christ. I do not need to become a Methodist in order to understand that Methodist theology is different then Catholic theology in many ways…all I have to do is study Methodist theology. I would say that if I became a Methodist in order to learn about their theology, I would be gravely sinning because I am a Roman Catholic and I am not “free” to join other faiths.
Similarly, one does not need to read/see the Da Vinci Code in order to know it contains some very bad stuff…all one needs to do is study trusted sources on the issue and that is plenty enough to inform us of what is wrong about that book/movie. Like I stated before, one does not need to have an abortion to know it is wrong.
Further, when we pay for a movie that we know is bad, our dollars are not counted in a separate column relating to people who are “studying” the film. No, our money is chaulked up as part of the basic bottomline of receipts for that movie and if the movie is successful, then the studios will simply encouraged to make more of the same. Every dollar we spend on such filth encourages more filth to be made. IMO.
Thanks for the mature and reasoned responses.
Let’s look at this subject through a lens of faith. As a Catholic I often study other religions, not because I intend on becoming a member of those others religons; rather, I study them to be a more informed Catholic so I can be a stronger witness to Christ. I do not need to become a Methodist in order to understand that Methodist theology is different then Catholic theology in many ways…all I have to do is study Methodist theology. I would say that if I became a Methodist in order to learn about their theology, I would be gravely sinning because I am a Roman Catholic and I am not “free” to join other faiths.
Similarly, one does not need to read/see the Da Vinci Code in order to know it contains some very bad stuff…all one needs to do is study trusted sources on the issue and that is plenty enough to inform us of what is wrong about that book/movie. Like I stated before, one does not need to have an abortion to know it is wrong.
Further, when we pay for a movie that we know is bad, our dollars are not counted in a separate column relating to people who are “studying” the film. No, our money is chaulked up as part of the basic bottomline of receipts for that movie and if the movie is successful, then the studios will simply encouraged to make more of the same. Every dollar we spend on such filth encourages more filth to be made. IMO.
Thanks for the mature and reasoned responses.
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
rocklobster,
Harry Potter is a bit different. The books/movies are not out to bash the faith or Christ or the Church or any group in the Church. The one sound argument against HP is that HP uses codemned practices in order to wreak good. We are not allowed to try to obtain good by doing evil.
HP does not fall into the same catgory as the Da Vinci Code…yet I do not let my kids see/read HP.
Harry Potter is a bit different. The books/movies are not out to bash the faith or Christ or the Church or any group in the Church. The one sound argument against HP is that HP uses codemned practices in order to wreak good. We are not allowed to try to obtain good by doing evil.
HP does not fall into the same catgory as the Da Vinci Code…yet I do not let my kids see/read HP.
P
Potato1
Guest
P
Potato1
Guest
I am sorry you took the sazrcasm personally, I dont mean it personally, it was to refute a point with humor, you will find that it is used alot on these forums and in fact in any debate on any subject. I read and reread my post and I could not for the life of me find what got you so upset. But I apologise for hurting your feelings. It may happen again but it is not meant to damage you in any way.
One of the great things about the Catholic Church is that we have so much compiled knowledge about heresies, and what and who Christ is and our own history. Maybe you are so well versed in these things that you feel that reading obvious heretical material for educational purposes is safe and indeed smart. It is dangerous advice to give to others though, people that may be clouded by thier own misconceptions or views of the Church. Hiding behind a thinner viel of faith than they realize. The devil loves for people to believe that they are stong enough to withstand the lies. Some are and some arent. look at all the potestant Churches out there, they all read the same book and come up with 30,000 interpretations of it.
There are so many matereials on the davici Code but not just that, there are doctors of the Church, saints, theologians, past and preseant, the BIBLE, popes, the ccc all of these are resources of the Catholic faith. So in your little situation you present two options, neither of which I would take. Option 3: know your faith and its stance on the hereseys in the davici code (they aren’t new) Then when someone asks you about it you can give an educated resopnse on pure Catholic teaching without having to have wasted time in your life (time you will never get back) listening to the lies of Dan Brown. I am not or never would say that it is “sinful” to read these or any books. But it is dangerous, someone has to do it and I applaud those people but to give advise like you should read it so you are informed is dangerous. Just because you are strong and very well educated in your faith, and you are prepared for spiritual battle, you have examined your abilities, putting ego and myopic views of yourself and what you can handle aside does not mean everyone has that ability or clarity. I wish people would have the same eagerness to read Holy works and writings as they do this garbage. Dan Brown counts on your opinion for the books success, monetarily and with credibility. This matter will always be debated, I am not so eloquent to think that my view will “put this matter to rest” but at least my opinion is out there.
One of the great things about the Catholic Church is that we have so much compiled knowledge about heresies, and what and who Christ is and our own history. Maybe you are so well versed in these things that you feel that reading obvious heretical material for educational purposes is safe and indeed smart. It is dangerous advice to give to others though, people that may be clouded by thier own misconceptions or views of the Church. Hiding behind a thinner viel of faith than they realize. The devil loves for people to believe that they are stong enough to withstand the lies. Some are and some arent. look at all the potestant Churches out there, they all read the same book and come up with 30,000 interpretations of it.
There are so many matereials on the davici Code but not just that, there are doctors of the Church, saints, theologians, past and preseant, the BIBLE, popes, the ccc all of these are resources of the Catholic faith. So in your little situation you present two options, neither of which I would take. Option 3: know your faith and its stance on the hereseys in the davici code (they aren’t new) Then when someone asks you about it you can give an educated resopnse on pure Catholic teaching without having to have wasted time in your life (time you will never get back) listening to the lies of Dan Brown. I am not or never would say that it is “sinful” to read these or any books. But it is dangerous, someone has to do it and I applaud those people but to give advise like you should read it so you are informed is dangerous. Just because you are strong and very well educated in your faith, and you are prepared for spiritual battle, you have examined your abilities, putting ego and myopic views of yourself and what you can handle aside does not mean everyone has that ability or clarity. I wish people would have the same eagerness to read Holy works and writings as they do this garbage. Dan Brown counts on your opinion for the books success, monetarily and with credibility. This matter will always be debated, I am not so eloquent to think that my view will “put this matter to rest” but at least my opinion is out there.
M
Mijoy2
Guest
Has there been word (interview maybe) from Ron Howard or Tom Hanks with regard to what this movie may do to peoples’ faith?
I was watching The Green Mile the other night and couldn’t help but think that Hanks (at least appears) to possibly be a man of conviction and possibly faith. Ron Howard after all was Opey (spel) son of Andy of Mayberry. There must be some Chrisitianity in his background. Why would he be a part of potentially hindering peoples faith in the Biblical Jesus? (I wonder).
I’d be curious to know if they see it as irrelvelant (it’s only a movie), or if they themselves believe there is truth in Dan Browns’ words.
Any links to any interviews?
I was watching The Green Mile the other night and couldn’t help but think that Hanks (at least appears) to possibly be a man of conviction and possibly faith. Ron Howard after all was Opey (spel) son of Andy of Mayberry. There must be some Chrisitianity in his background. Why would he be a part of potentially hindering peoples faith in the Biblical Jesus? (I wonder).
I’d be curious to know if they see it as irrelvelant (it’s only a movie), or if they themselves believe there is truth in Dan Browns’ words.
Any links to any interviews?
J
John_Kearns
Guest
Well, since nobody else has described the book in those words, I will. The Da Vinci Code is an instrument of evil, and, in writing it, Dan Brown has made himself an agent of evil. That’s not to say that he is beyond redemption; none of us are beyond Christ’s healing touch. But, grace is a gift that can be refused. Let’s pray that Mr. Brown changes his mind.
J
John_Kearns
Guest
I can’t agree with you here. Better than ninety-nine percent of Catholics do not “do” apologetics. For them, there is no reason to expose themselves to the lies and heresy in this book. After all, are we not told to avoid near occassion to sin.
J
John_Kearns
Guest
Herein lies another, albeit, far less important, objection to this book. Mr. Brown does not write well; so, all other points put aside, there are simply other, better, things you could be reading.Someone recommeded The Da Vinci Code to me as a total work of fiction but a thoroughly good read from a fictional point of view. Hence I was pleased when someone gave me the book for Christmas.
I got a third of the way through it and started to get bored and I’ve put the book down totally bored a little more than half way through it…I got so tired of every Chapter ending with a crises which introduced the next part of the book that it became boring. Its not too many books I dont finish reading…but this just might be one of them! From a literary point of view to my mind…it is like a soap opera…crisis at the end of every episode. Soap operas bore me! although I usually get the crisis end of “The Bold and The Beautiful” as it is immediately before our late afternoon news starts on TV here in South Australia.
I think the author has done an aweful lot of research on many subjects and commend him from this point of view…but as I writer, I think he would be more outstanding as a researcher. As a writer of soap operas, he would have found his level. I think in the hands of a good writer all that research and a basically fascinating fictional tale could have been weaved…without the overworked crisis of some kind to end each chapter.
If anyone out there has read the book and can assure me that the author drops his method of writing a little over half way through the book, then I might pick it up again and finish it.
My view.…
Peace…Barb
J
John_Kearns
Guest
Thank you.cenpress,
I respect you views, yet I must admit that I disagree strongly.
Should a good Catholic buy a porn magazine in order to properly talk about the sinful nature of porn?
Should a Catholic delve into witchcraft in order to more fully explain the sinful nature of such evil acts?
Should a Catholic get an abortion in order to explain how bad abortions are?
Obviously the answer is “no” to all of the above.
If Catholics support such garbage, then the garbage just keeps coming. A good definition of insanity is a person who does the same thing over and over and expects a different result. Catholics reflect that same weakness when they continue to purchase products that they know are bad/evil and yet they expect the culture to be different then the very things they delve into are evil in nature. If Catholics/Christians support evil, the culture will be evil, period.
Catholics and all Christians should stay away from such filth in huge numbers, only then will such garbage not be made.
J
John_Kearns
Guest
Tom Hanks and Ron Howard are both extremely liberal Democrats. That is, their emphasis is on the pro-abortion, pro gay rights, pro sexual promiscuity, etc., agenda. As such, they are card carrying Catholic haters. The wolf often wears sheep’s clothing. And Satan’s servants are all too often cute and cuddly.
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
John Kearns,
Here is some interesting info:
Tom Hanks was an adherent of a number of different Christian denominations while growing up (including Catholic, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Nazarene, and a Fundamentalist Christian group. Hanks joined the Greek Orthodox Church when he married his wife, Rita Wilson. The webpage below is not a comprehensive spiritual biography of Tom Hanks, but focuses primarily on the time he spent as a Latter-day Saint…
ldsfilm.com/actors/TomHanks.html
Ron Howard is a Protestant, probably a Methodist. His parents were married in a Methodist church. Source: Beverly Gray, Ron Howard: From Mayberry to the Moon . . . and Beyond, Rutledge Hill Press: Nashville, Tennessee (2003), page 7.
adherents.com/people/ph/Ron_Howard.html
Here is some interesting info:
Tom Hanks was an adherent of a number of different Christian denominations while growing up (including Catholic, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Nazarene, and a Fundamentalist Christian group. Hanks joined the Greek Orthodox Church when he married his wife, Rita Wilson. The webpage below is not a comprehensive spiritual biography of Tom Hanks, but focuses primarily on the time he spent as a Latter-day Saint…
ldsfilm.com/actors/TomHanks.html
Ron Howard is a Protestant, probably a Methodist. His parents were married in a Methodist church. Source: Beverly Gray, Ron Howard: From Mayberry to the Moon . . . and Beyond, Rutledge Hill Press: Nashville, Tennessee (2003), page 7.
adherents.com/people/ph/Ron_Howard.html
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