JUST reasons, and children

[RedSoxWife]

I’ll be honest, I didn’t really bother reading this whole thing this time. I skimmed through it and that was enough to know we have gotten absolutely no where and never will.

I will say that you still seem to insinuate certain beliefs that come across as judgmental to the person who stops having babies at #2 or 3 for anything short of a very grave reason (which is not necessary by the Church). Also, you give many personal examples, which takes away the point I’ve been trying to make all along - that everyone is different. Something works for you, great. It won’t work for everyone.

As for the fact that it was never discussed how the family planning would go, well, I’m sorry I assumed we were all referring to the licit way - NFP.

And I HAVE brought up the fact that if a child comes unplanned, then that child would be welcomed into the world and loved just like the others. This isn’t an abortion/contraception thread, and never has been.

At least you admit that you haven’t even read what I’ve written this time, instead of claiming that you’re even vaguely trying to listen. You use insinuate over and over again. I haven’t insinuated that a woman who has a serious (and I’ve used serious every time) reason is doing anything wrong. Maybe you’re imaginary insinuations have more to do with you than they do with me. Don’t put words in my mouth that I’ve never said. Don’t imagine that I’ve said things when they aren’t there in writing. I’ve at least given you that courtesy. I’ve at least read what you’ve said and answered your questions.

I can’t judge your own reasons. It’s not my place. I don’t know you. I don’t know why you feel the need to come on here and put words in peoples mouths when they haven’t said them, which you’ve done over and over again.

I don’t believe you seriously wanted a discussion. You just wanted to slam people who’ve disagreed with you. You’ve done that. Is it out of your system yet?

And yes… you’re not going to bully me off the thread by calling me narrow minded and repeatedly putting words in my mouth. I’ll keep on answering you and praying for you. We could all use more prayers (although I expect even saying I’ll pray for you will be twisted, right?).

 

[kristacecilia]

Happy mommy–are you judging him for judging us because he thinks we’re judging other people even though the majority of us are not sayng what he thinks we are saying?

Bwahahahahahahaha!!!

Okay, back to not posting on this waste of time thread anymore.

 

[happymommy]

Happy mommy–are you judging him for judging us because he thinks we’re judging other people even though the majority of us are not sayng what he thinks we are saying?

:yup:

 

[BingoBoy]

That’s not the only thing you have said. If it was and if you comprehended what the majority of us are writing here, you’d comprehend that we agree that not everyone is the same and not everyone is called to have a large family. There’s nothing offensive at all about that. It’s the other things you’ve written that are offensive.

Sincerely, Mother Hubbard

Fair enough. Such as what?

 

[BingoBoy]

My gosh… could you all be a little more polite? I’ve felt attacked the minute I wrote this thread, yet apparently everyone is saying I’M the one being rude??

Thanks everyone.

 

[BingoBoy]

At least you admit that you haven’t even read what I’ve written this time, instead of claiming that you’re even vaguely trying to listen. You use insinuate over and over again. I haven’t insinuated that a woman who has a serious (and I’ve used serious every time) reason is doing anything wrong. Maybe you’re imaginary insinuations have more to do with you than they do with me. Don’t put words in my mouth that I’ve never said. Don’t imagine that I’ve said things when they aren’t there in writing. I’ve at least given you that courtesy. I’ve at least read what you’ve said and answered your questions.

I can’t judge your own reasons. It’s not my place. I don’t know you. I don’t know why you feel the need to come on here and put words in peoples mouths when they haven’t said them, which you’ve done over and over again.

I don’t believe you seriously wanted a discussion. You just wanted to slam people who’ve disagreed with you. You’ve done that. Is it out of your system yet?

And yes… you’re not going to bully me off the thread by calling me narrow minded and repeatedly putting words in my mouth. I’ll keep on answering you and praying for you. We could all use more prayers (although I expect even saying I’ll pray for you will be twisted, right?).

Oh, and one more thing… please point out where I’ve “slammed people.” Thanks.

 

[Castello]

Can anyone show me one time in Scripture where God ever called children a burden?

Where He ever cursed someone by sending them a child? Heck, raining down fire from heaven was not needed for Sodom and Gamorroh, flood was not needed in Noah’s time, God should have just sent em all a set of twins.

Funny, when God did curse people the worst one was when he killed their children.

Seems God thinks kids are pretty darned important.

 

[BingoBoy]

Can anyone show me one time in Scripture where God ever called children a burden?

Where He ever cursed someone by sending them a child? Heck, raining down fire from heaven was not needed for Sodom and Gamorroh, flood was not needed in Noah’s time, God should have just sent em all a set of twins.

Funny, when God did curse people the worst one was when he killed their children.

Seems God thinks kids are pretty darned important.

Has anyone here said that children are a burden and that children were unimportant? Anyone? Anyone?

If anyone said that, please point it out to me because I most certainly missed it.

I would take the hint and assume you’re insinuating that I feel that way (though it is a very wrong/unfair assumption). But then I’d get accused of putting words in people’s mouths.

 

[kristacecilia]

Has anyone here said that children are a burden and that children were unimportant? Anyone? Anyone?

If anyone said that, please point it out to me because I most certainly missed it.

It is the general attitude of the people posting here, especially the ones that repeat post on ALL these threads, that children are something to be avoided at all costs.

 

[BingoBoy]

It is the general attitude of the people posting here, especially the ones that repeat post on ALL these threads, that children are something to be avoided at all costs.

Who’s done that? I’ve never seen anyone post anything saying children should be avoided at all costs.

I would take the hint and assume you’re insinuating that I feel that way (though it is a very wrong/unfair assumption). But then I’d get accused of putting words in people’s mouths.

 

[kristacecilia]

Who’s done that? I’ve never seen anyone post anything saying children should be avoided at all costs.

I would take the hint and assume you’re insinuating that I feel that way (though it is a very wrong/unfair assumption). But then I’d get accused of putting words in people’s mouths.

I actually just deleted that post because I realized I had posted here thinking it was the other NFP thread. Sorry.

 

[Castello]

Has anyone here said that children are a burden and that children were unimportant? Anyone? Anyone?

If anyone said that, please point it out to me because I most certainly missed it.

I would take the hint and assume you’re insinuating that I feel that way (though it is a very wrong/unfair assumption). But then I’d get accused of putting words in people’s mouths.

Post #110 speaks of children as burdens.

 

[RedSoxWife]

Oh, and one more thing… please point out where I’ve “slammed people.” Thanks.

Okay, um, I don’t know about you, but “narrow minded” isn’t nice, anywhere. And “You people” really isn’t a compliment either. Since you asked. I’m pretty sure you could figure that out without my help though. When you wrote it I’m pretty sure you knew you weren’t being… let’s just say “polite.”

 

[BingoBoy]

Okay, um, I don’t know about you, but “narrow minded” isn’t nice, anywhere. And “You people” really isn’t a compliment either. Since you asked. I’m pretty sure you could figure that out without my help though. When you wrote it I’m pretty sure you knew you weren’t being… let’s just say “polite.”

I think it’s pretty fair to say I’ve been slammed way more than that. If all people had done was call my views “narrow minded” and referred to me and others who think like me as “you people,” (which I see nothing wrong with, considering we are people) I would actually be impressed.

I’ve been accused of thinking career was more important than family, and of thinking children are a burden, and I’ve been condemned for my opinion of what a just reason would be (with the example I gave). So

 

[BingoBoy]

Post #110 speaks of children as burdens.

I don’t think Rence was saying children are burdens. Looks to me like she was saying they could CAUSE burden. Which they can. Even the Church uses the term “financial burden” when outlining just reasons to avoid children.

This has been taken way out of perspective.

 

[RedSoxWife]

I think it’s pretty fair to say I’ve been slammed way more than that. If all people had done was call my views “narrow minded” and referred to me and others who think like me as “you people,” (which I see nothing wrong with, considering we are people) I would actually be impressed.

I’ve been accused of thinking career was more important than family, and of thinking children are a burden, and I’ve been condemned for my opinion of what a just reason would be (with the example I gave). So

I went with the words you wrote that stood back. I opted not to go back and reread all the posts (which I did give you the courtesy of at least reading the first time) to find every pointed thing that you said that was less than charitable.

As for the accusations that you say have been made, how many of them were “inferred” from suggestions about living in accordance with Catholic thought? But then maybe other posters “inferred” that children were seen as burdens because there seems to be a trend in this thread towards acting as if a blessing from God would ruin a woman’s life (the repetition that having more children would ruin a woman’s career, discarding any claims that many women actually do have children and careers).

I haven’t seen anyone call you a name (which you did). The impression I got from most of the posters here was that they were genuinely trying to encourage you to prayerfully discern and understand what the Church teaches (that discerning is an ongoing process and not a one time thing).

 

[Debora123]

I went with the words you wrote that stood back. I opted not to go back and reread all the posts (which I did give you the courtesy of at least reading the first time) to find every pointed thing that you said that was less than charitable.

As for the accusations that you say have been made, how many of them were “inferred” from suggestions about living in accordance with Catholic thought? But then maybe other posters “inferred” that children were seen as burdens because there seems to be a trend in this thread towards acting as if a blessing from God would ruin a woman’s life (the repetition that having more children would ruin a woman’s career, discarding any claims that many women actually do have children and careers).

I haven’t seen anyone call you a name (which you did). The impression I got from most of the posters here was that they were genuinely trying to encourage you to prayerfully discern and understand what the Church teaches (that discerning is an ongoing process and not a one time thing).

I disagree. I think there’s been more attacks done to me.

 

[BingoBoy]

I went with the words you wrote that stood back. I opted not to go back and reread all the posts (which I did give you the courtesy of at least reading the first time) to find every pointed thing that you said that was less than charitable.

Well maybe you should have done that before you accused me of slamming everyone on the thread… just to be sure I actually did. I think I used the term “narrow minded” once, and it wasn’t directed at anyone in particular. I’m pretty sure I said something along the lines of “people continue to be narrow minded about this…” or something. Either way, I wouldn’t consider that to be slamming everyone, especially considering the much worse things said to ME.

As for the accusations that you say have been made, how many of them were “inferred” from suggestions about living in accordance with Catholic thought?

Well none of them I thought, unless you can point me to a Catholic Doctrine that states that people with the “just reason” I presented DO in fact put career ahead of family, think of children as burdens, and are actually mistaken about what they consider to be just reasons.

But then maybe other posters “inferred” that children were seen as burdens because there seems to be a trend in this thread towards acting as if a blessing from God would ruin a woman’s life (the repetition that having more children would ruin a woman’s career, discarding any claims that many women actually do have children and careers).

Can you point to me where someone has said a child would ruin a women’s life? I know I’ve talked about avoiding more children for the good of the family for a reason that **I **thought was just. I DONT remember saying a child would ruin someone’s life.

I haven’t seen anyone call you a name (which you did). The impression I got from most of the posters here was that they were genuinely trying to encourage you to prayerfully discern and understand what the Church teaches (that discerning is an ongoing process and not a one time thing).

A few of them have most certainly encouraged prayer and discernment. While others, including yourself, have bashed my opinion of what a just reason is. Either way, this has nothing to do with my life bc I’m not married. It was all a hypothetical scenario constructed by me to make a point.

When did I call someone a name? Please let me know, because I don’t recall doing so.

 

[Em_in_FL]

I’m late to this thread.

I’m also a bit of a contradiction myself… large(r) family (4 kids), working mom (well, when maternity leave is over…) etc…
I understand the perspectives that BingBoy is trying to make. Actually, I don’t think any of his points are against church teaching at all. I DO take issue where some of the posts with emmar start to insinuate that using ILLICIT MEANS to space/avoid children falls under “whatever works for their family”, because clearly, anything other than abstinence (total or periodic/NFP) is against church teaching…
But truthfully, the ideas of “just/serious/grave” reasons are really up to the COUPLE to PRAYERFULLY discern. This is going to be a unique situation for each unique couple - and I do understand that there is no “one size fits all” policy in this area. So really - there’s no way to answer the question - except that it much be PRAYERFULLY discerned to not be for selfish reasons.

 

[BingoBoy]

I’m late to this thread.

I’m also a bit of a contradiction myself… large(r) family (4 kids), working mom (well, when maternity leave is over…) etc…
I understand the perspectives that BingBoy is trying to make. Actually, I don’t think any of his points are against church teaching at all. I DO take issue where some of the posts with emmar start to insinuate that using ILLICIT MEANS to space/avoid children falls under “whatever works for their family”, because clearly, anything other than abstinence (total or periodic/NFP) is against church teaching…
But truthfully, the ideas of “just/serious/grave” reasons are really up to the COUPLE to PRAYERFULLY discern. This is going to be a unique situation for each unique couple - and I do understand that there is no “one size fits all” policy in this area. So really - there’s no way to answer the question - except that it much be PRAYERFULLY discerned to not be for selfish reasons.

Exactly!

And thank you Em. I am perfectly content with this answer and agree 100%.