Just received a trespassing warning

[ProdglArchitect]

Question for you;

A person (whom you assume is the secretary) already told you it was “private property”, why then did you tell the police officer that you wanted a person to verify ?

What is it about being an assumed secretary that makes her unbelievable?

I understand that you were embarrassed as you weren’t trying to do anything wrong, but these two things jumped right out at me.

Well, I wasn’t intending to restart this thread this morning, but I felt I should answer this.

I told the office that I wanted someone to verify it because I was in a space that is accessible to the public, and legally must remain accessible to the public because it it is the only access route for the complex’s elevator. I’ve done area / allocation calculations on similar setups, and the space in front of the shops is never included as shop property for the purpose of rent, hence, I concluded that the area likely was not theirs, and she was just saying it to get rid of me.

As for what made her unbelievable, basically, her entire mannerism and the attitude with which she approached me, both of which came across as hostile. Admittedly, I have some degree of bias against her, but you asked, and that’s my answer.

For those who are curious, I told me wife, and she did not kill me, so that’s a plus

 

[agnes_therese]

For those who are curious, I told me wife, and she did not kill me, so that’s a plus

Well, if you were my husband, I’d be proud of you.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Well, if you were my husband, I’d be proud of you.

Sadly, she doesn’t really understand why I consider it to be important. In her defense, she’s not Catholic, is not a fan of abortion, though she still thinks it should be allowed in rape cases; and I’ve just recently started considering pro-life activity, so the whole thing’s kind of caught her off guard >_> She said that if I had been fined or jailed she would have been royally ticked off, but since it was just a warning it didn’t both her much ^^

 

[Petaro]

Yeah, I have no intent of testing the waters.

Part of me thinks it’d be better to just rip the bandage off and tell her. She’ll be mad for a couple days, but then calm down…

On the other hand, since I’ve no intent of going back, it should never become an issue; so no preparation or good is gained from telling her… The prospect of telling her is making me feel physically ill… I feel like a child who just go found out doing something he shouldn’t >_> Yet I’m conflicted, because I know I did nothing wrong, so I feel that I shouldn’t have anything to fear from her…

For Heavens sake, man up. She is your wife… you are her lord and master… I am posting this quietly as I don’t want my wife to hear. In all seriousness, what you are doing is following your conscience. If she loves you she should respect that. Demand the respect her love is based on. As the civil guard in Spain said to me whilst waving a sub-machine gun… “Get off the grass.” Give to Caesar and stay on the footpath, your prayers will work just as well.

 

[maryjk]

Sadly, she doesn’t really understand why I consider it to be important. In her defense, she’s not Catholic, is not a fan of abortion, though she still thinks it should be allowed in rape cases; and I’ve just recently started considering pro-life activity, so the whole thing’s kind of caught her off guard >_> She said that if I had been fined or jailed she would have been royally ticked off, but since it was just a warning it didn’t both her much ^^

Since you said that if you had been arrested or jailed, you would have lost your job, I understand her concern.

Sometimes Catholics are accused of caring more for the unborn than the born. If you have children, I would wonder of sometimes our accusers are right.

Could you imagine explaining to your children, “Yes, it is hard to live in our car, but Daddy feels very strongly about protesting at abortion clinics. So it was worth it to him to lose his job”

Next time someone asks you to get off of their property, be like Nike and “Just do it.”

 

[RoseMary131]

… business renting property in a strip mall … Things like what is and is not considered a part of their lease would be covered in the lease.

part of a shopping complex.

I did ask the officer if the property in front of a place like that is generally considered the property of the store, or a public through way,

I was sitting in front of their door, I was out of the prominent path of travel, leaning against a column in an area that would serve as elevator access

I think the building owner owns the space I was in, as it was part of a shopping complex. … a company only has control over the area within the confines of the building; the walkway out front of it is considered public domain for the purposes of rent determination.

believe that I was in public domain space, …considered a public walkway for purposes …building codes.

public **walkway out front **of their “shop”… served as public access to the elevators.

a shopping complex, with public walk paths … ** easily been considered an elevator lobby.**

I don’t think they should be able to claim that something is their property, when it could just as easily be deemed a public path,

The equivalent would be someone in an conference room across from the elevators in a hotel …

consider checking the property information, …would require me to contact the building owner

… the building owner, but Planned Parenthood isn’t the building owner, … renting their offices from the building owner… My contention was/is that those rights do not extend to the public **walk path in front of their offices, which could be used as a walk path by any person seeking to access the stairs or elevator **

I greatly admire you going to pray. It is hard for many people to have the courage to pray outside of a PP or abortion mill. Visual prayer outside of these places helps the mothers see a real person caring about her. Many mothers and babies lives are saved through these prayer efforts.

I do not write this post to upset you, that you most likely were not on public area, but to express to anyone reading - the safer areas to offer prayers for the mothers and babies.

This is only my opinion, not anything legal, only from my own experience about praying on public property near abortion mills / PP.

I’m not for sure that I understand the place you were praying.

Were you outside on a sidewalk or grassy or other area that is maintained by the city or local government - known as public space?

It sounds as if you were in or on a walking area of a shopping complex. If that is where you were, you were not on public property, but on private property belonging to the building owner.

It is important when praying outside of an abortion mill or a PP that prayer warriors only do so on actual public property. A walkway that belongs to a building owner is not public property.

People who may typically be invited inside a building to seek business or to walk on the sidewalk of the building - can be asked to leave the area - if they are not there to seek business from one of the renters.

When praying outside of a PP or abortion mill that is a single business building, prayer warriors are allowed on the public area - that which belongs to the city or local government. Prayer warriors do not park in the parking lot of the business nor walk on their lawn, sidewalk, or parking lot.

When praying outside of a PP that is part of a strip mall, prayer warriors do not park in the parking lot of the strip mall nor step onto the parking lot or privately owned area. All prayer and all speaking with the mothers/family/friends of those going into the business takes place on public area.

Area, walkways, parking lot, elevator access, etc… that belongs to a building owner is not public.

Who has the legal right to charge a person with trespassing in the situation you described - the building owner or the renter of the building space - I don’t know.

From my understanding of praying outside PP and abortion mills - which I do as part of an organized group - I would say “never step foot on an inch of land that is not public”.

I think your definition of public is different than mine. What you described as “public” sounds like it is available to people to walk in that area while they are in a privately owned building - not public.

There is also a point (usually regarding number of people) when those gathering to pray need a permit. Local governments will have different laws as to when a permit is needed.

I greatly encourage people to pray outside of PP / abortion mills - making sure to follow all laws and to pray peacefully.

(The current 40 Days for Life campaign is underway: Sept 25 - Nov. 3. I invite all reading this to participate by prayer and fasting. Prayer can take place in the privacy of your home throughout the day if you do not feel called to pray outside of an abortion mill, PP, or as in some location a public building like the courthouse.
40daysforlife.com/about.cfm and 40daysforlife.com/blog/ )

To the OP - May you not let this set back keep you from praying outside of PP in a legally public area. I greatly admire your strength. I pray you will continue to be a witness for Life in a public area - continuing to offer prayers in the public area near this PP.

Our Lady of Guadalupe, Patroness of the Unborn ~ Pray for us.

 

[RoseMary131]

Another thought:

The building owner rents this space to Planned Parenthood. The building owner makes money from the rent of Planned Parenthood.

I would assume the building owner would not be pleased if his renter Planned Parenthood lost business due to prayer warriors. If his renter closed down due to prayer warriors - he loses a renter.

I would not expect the building owner to side with prayer warriors - praying outside of one of his renter’s space on the building owner’s property.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Since you said that if you had been arrested or jailed, you would have lost your job, I understand her concern.

Sometimes Catholics are accused of caring more for the unborn than the born. If you have children, I would wonder of sometimes our accusers are right.

Could you imagine explaining to your children, “Yes, it is hard to live in our car, but Daddy feels very strongly about protesting at abortion clinics. So it was worth it to him to lose his job”

Next time someone asks you to get off of their property, be like Nike and “Just do it.”

No children yet.

I genuinely believed myself to be int eh right, and believed that the officer would support my right to be their when / if she showed up. Guess I’ll know better for the future >_>

And Rosemary, thank you for that breakdown, it makes quite a bit of sense.

 

[mikekle]

I think this shows which side law enforcement and the city itself is on!!! But this should not surprise anyone.

In reality, the officer should have went into the office and arrested them for mass murder, but they are both on the same side, so they will protect each other.

These are dangerous times today, everyone committed to pro-life should be leery of any police officer, as they will protect evil every chance they can, by using any law they can too.

 

[RoseMary131]

I think this shows which side law enforcement and the city itself is on!!! But this should not surprise anyone.

In reality, the officer should have went into the office and arrested them for mass murder, but they are both on the same side, so they will protect each other.

These are dangerous times today, everyone committed to pro-life should be leery of any police officer, as they will protect evil every chance they can, by using any law they can too.

The City Officials and Law Enforcement can be both Pro-Life and following the legal law.

As Pro-Life People, we work to change laws - not break laws.

The police officers are required to follow the law as are prayer warriors.

(Not directing this to the OP)

A police officer who arrests a prayer warrior who breaks the law is performing his duty.

To speak ill of police officers is not proper. There are many good and holy police officers.

Our Lady of Guadalupe ~ Patroness of the Unborn ~ Pray for us.

St. Michael ~ Patron of Military and Police ~ Pray for us.

 

[BettyBoop416]

Ask yourself this question…if you fell and got seriously hurt due to a faulty sidewalk or for some other reason where you prayed who would you have to sue for your medical expenses, the city/town of occurrence or the owner of the building you fell in front of - the clinic in this case?

As the wife of a trial lawyer, I know the answer to this one. You sue everyone in sight.

I think this shows which side law enforcement and the city itself is on!!! But this should not surprise anyone.

In reality, the officer should have went into the office and arrested them for mass murder, but they are both on the same side, so they will protect each other.

These are dangerous times today, everyone committed to pro-life should be leery of any police officer, as they will protect evil every chance they can, by using any law they can too.

Oops…What has been an interesting thread just took a crazy turn.

 

[revert_jen]

Another thought:

The building owner rents this space to Planned Parenthood. The building owner makes money from the rent of Planned Parenthood.

I would assume the building owner would not be pleased if his renter Planned Parenthood lost business due to prayer warriors. If his renter closed down due to prayer warriors - he loses a renter.

I would not expect the building owner to side with prayer warriors - praying outside of one of his renter’s space on the building owner’s property.

Possibly, but an abortion clinic in Virginia closed down recently, and he building owners were glad to see the last of them. You, and in fact all those fighting for the cause of life, might take encouragement from this article, which seems unexpectedly unbiased:

articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-07-14/local/40575401_1_troy-newman-abortion-debate-abortion-providers

This is a more sympathetic (to the pro-life side) account, from the diocesan newspaper:

catholicherald.com/stories/Fairfax-abortion-clinic-closes-its-doors,23508

Praise God!

–Jen

 

[RoseMary131]

Possibly, but an abortion clinic in Virginia closed down recently, and he building owners were glad to see the last of them. You, and in fact all those fighting for the cause of life, might take encouragement from this article, which seems unexpectedly unbiased:

articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-07-14/local/40575401_1_troy-newman-abortion-debate-abortion-providers

This is a more sympathetic (to the pro-life side) account, from the diocesan newspaper:

catholicherald.com/stories/Fairfax-abortion-clinic-closes-its-doors,23508

Praise God!

You are right. A building owner may have rented a building to PP or an abortion mill and wish to no longer be connected with them.

–Jen

Thank you for sharing. Yes, Praise God from Whom all Blessings flow.

You are right. A building owner may have rented a building to PP or an abortion mill and wish to no longer be connected with them.

(I actually should not have made the idea that the owner of this building may want to profit from the PP renters. Maybe, my assumption is incorrect. Maybe the owner would be happy PP was no longer in his building. I offer my apologies - even though the owner most likely is not reading this.)

Prayer makes a difference in changing hearts.

May God bless the OP in his efforts, may those who work at that PP and all PP /abortion mills have a change in heart, may the owner of that building (if she/he does not know now) be blessed with a heart to witness to Life, may all mothers who seek services at all PP /abortion mills be blessed with a heart for Life, may all mothers /fathers who suffer from abortion find healing in God’s mercy.

 

[mikekle]

A police officer who arrests a prayer warrior who breaks the law is performing his duty.

The excuse of simply doing ones duty was used extensively at Nuremberg too. Does this justify allowing mass murder and other such things to go on? Maybe in mans eyes, but not in Gods.

 

[mikekle]

Since you said that if you had been arrested or jailed, you would have lost your job, I understand her concern.

Sometimes Catholics are accused of caring more for the unborn than the born. If you have children, I would wonder of sometimes our accusers are right.

Could you imagine explaining to your children, “Yes, it is hard to live in our car, but Daddy feels very strongly about protesting at abortion clinics. So it was worth it to him to lose his job”

Next time someone asks you to get off of their property, be like Nike and “Just do it.”

All that is required for evil to grow and flourish is for good men to do nothing.I understand your comments, but dont you find it strange, people are so scared of being arrested, loosing their jobs, homes, etc. so they choose to sit on the side lines about such topics? I think it is set up like this for a reason, mainly to stop most people from doing their duties as instructed by God, Is it a tool of Satan…maybe, but people only see it as the law of the land and choose to obey it, no matter what the law is.

Im no different, I have my own well being to consider, I have no desire to loose my job, house, income etc over doing something that is right according to God, but not man, However I feel I am weak for thinking like this and probably will be judged accordingly by God for my non-action and only being concerned with my own life. Many times in the bible, there are stories of civil disobedience and people being arrested and even put to death by the Romans, but it was for the greater good, so God encouraged it and rewarded those who did such things

Furhtermore, I think laws are created to deal with people like this for a good reason, it is done to scare people and keep people from doing what is right, using fear of arrest, jail, lose of job, income, etc These are all worldly things, yet Satan knows most people are weak in this regard.

 

[RoseMary131]

                 Originally Posted by **RoseMary131**                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11240609#post11240609)                 
             A police officer who arrests a prayer warrior who breaks the law is performing his duty.

The excuse of simply doing ones duty was used extensively at Nuremberg too. Does this justify allowing mass murder and other such things to go on? Maybe in mans eyes, but not in Gods.

All that is required for evil to grow and flourish is for good men to do nothing.

The police officer who arrests a prayer warrior for breaking the law - is doing what she/he was hired to do - protecting others by following the law. It is not an excuse - it is what the officer was hired to do and what the officer chose to do when accepting the job.

Those praying outside of abortion mills are expected to follow the law and not trespass. Dioceses and parishes who help organize prayer warriors to be outside abortion mills encourage obeying the law. Those who break the law by trespassing are subject to trespassing laws.

Police officers who arrest those who break trespassing laws should not be viewed as “protecting evil every chance they get”. Nor should it be implied that police officers who arrest people for trespassing should be compared to those who were tried in the Nuremberg War Crime trials. Nor should it be said that these police officers are justifying mass murder. We can not hold police officers who arrest trespasser for the responsibility of all the dead babies of legalized abortion.

It is police officers who help with the safety of Pro-Lifers to pray lawfully outside of abortion mills and to hold Pro-Life Marches through public streets.

Good men can do many things to stop evil from growing and flourishing.

Having a law that allows abortion needs to change. Change in laws happens by helping elect pro-life legislators. Then helping to get new laws passed that protect mothers and babies from abortion.

As Pro-Life people, we respect the law. We work to change the law.

We work to let mothers know there is another choice. Legally praying outside of abortion centers is one way to let mothers know - or being a sidewalk helper / counselor outside of abortion centers.

Another way to help stop abortion is supporting Pregnancy Resource Centers so those who find themselves in a crisis pregnancy have a place to find compassion, education, and access to free ultrasounds, free maternity and baby clothes and other baby items. Donating to these centers of our finances and/or time keeps these resources available to mothers in need.

Lives are changed for those affected by the pains of abortion through Post Abortion Healing programs like Project Rachael. hopeafterabortion.com/

Those are a few of the things good men can do to stop the evil of abortion. Linking police officers who arrest trespassers because it is their job with the justification of crimes of mass murder of aborted babies and linking their action to the Nuremberg War Crimes does not help stop abortion and is not accurate.

 

[maryjk]

All that is required for evil to grow and flourish is for good men to do nothing.I understand your comments, but dont you find it strange, people are so scared of being arrested, loosing their jobs, homes, etc. so they choose to sit on the side lines about such topics? I think it is set up like this for a reason, mainly to stop most people from doing their duties as instructed by God, Is it a tool of Satan…maybe, but people only see it as the law of the land and choose to obey it, no matter what the law is.

It is more that people need to simply not stand on private property.

Yes, it is the law of the land and we are certainly able to ignore it. A tool of Satan? I don’t think so.

Wouldn’t it be smarter to pray a little further away, and be there to pray another day? He isn’t being asked to participate in the abortion, he isn’t even being asked to sit on the side lines. He is only being asked to stay off of private property. Sorry but it shouldn’t be that hard.

 

[alexandratm]

It is more that people need to simply not stand on private property.

Yes, it is the law of the land and we are certainly able to ignore it. A tool of Satan? I don’t think so.

Wouldn’t it be smarter to pray a little further away, and be there to pray another day? He isn’t being asked to participate in the abortion, he isn’t even being asked to sit on the side lines. He is only being asked to stay off of private property. Sorry but it shouldn’t be that hard.

Exactly. We had a protest in my area at one of the Catholic churches regarding the whole priest sex abuse brouhaha etc. The police came and told the protestors to move. Same thing they did here. An officer must uphold the law, not personally choose when and where to enforce it on his own personal beliefs.

Like others have pointed out, there are laws which govern where protests may be done. An officer asking someone to move from private property (or public property governed by said time/place/manner regulations) is not making any sort of statement as to the content of the protest.

Again, as others have said, all this could have been avoided by looking up the protest laws in the area. They are usually pretty clear and reasonable.