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Formosus
Guest
Constantine not to probe too much into your personal situation but, why not just file for the official transfer?
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5Loaves
Guest
I’m so glad I’m in a parish where the clergy and the parishioners don’t think this way. It must be very hard to be part of a parish where those who have not made a canonical change are actually seen as “other”. 
The only time it comes up is for baptism, marriage, and ordination which brother ConstantineTG knows and has addressed. Our priests are well used to this.
(Formosus- I posted right after you, but my post isn’t a reply to yours
)
The only time it comes up is for baptism, marriage, and ordination which brother ConstantineTG knows and has addressed. Our priests are well used to this.
(Formosus- I posted right after you, but my post isn’t a reply to yours
)
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ConstantineTG
Guest
To soon.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
You don’t have to tell me thatStick to what Bishop Ken told you Constantine…this is bunk.
I’m not seen as the “other”. The Bishop and the priest appreciates everything we’ve done for the parish. And I am appreciative of the warmth they and the community have extended to my family.I’m so glad I’m in a parish where the clergy and the parishioners don’t think this way. It must be very hard to be part of a parish where those who have not made a canonical change are actually seen as “other”.
The only time it comes up is for baptism, marriage, and ordination which brother ConstantineTG knows and has addressed. Our priests are well used to this.
(Formosus- I posted right after you, but my post isn’t a reply to yours
The funniest part is that on page 4 of this thread I gave out one advice, and the next two pages is all about me
I was the one helping out, not the one seeking help 
A
Aramis
Guest
Constantine:
Unless and until the Latin Bishop of the place gives permission, you are obliged by canon to live by the obligations of the Latin Codex Iuridicus Canonicae, which says you can receive communion, absolution, and unction in any rite, but also binds you to a specific set of holy days, and a specific set of fasts. Since the UGCC in most of N.America is aware of it’s latin adherents, that’s not a big deal.
Now, that bishop or his metropolitan may have given a blanket permission… but until you change, the UGCC bishop is not, canonically, YOUR bishop. The Latin Bishop is.
Unless and until the Latin Bishop of the place gives permission, you are obliged by canon to live by the obligations of the Latin Codex Iuridicus Canonicae, which says you can receive communion, absolution, and unction in any rite, but also binds you to a specific set of holy days, and a specific set of fasts. Since the UGCC in most of N.America is aware of it’s latin adherents, that’s not a big deal.
Now, that bishop or his metropolitan may have given a blanket permission… but until you change, the UGCC bishop is not, canonically, YOUR bishop. The Latin Bishop is.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I appreciate everyone’s “help”, but:
a. I have discussed the issue with the Bishop and I will go by what he said over what anyone here would say.
b. I’m not the one asking for help on this thread. While I appreciate people’s advice, I’m not seeking them. I know what I need to do and I’m confident with my decision.
c. I don’t think I’m going to hell because I’m canonically Latin while following a legitimate Bishop of the Church and living an Eastern spirituality. So please don’t be overly concerned, starting to live the Eastern spirituality has increased my love of God, not diminish it.
With that, here’s a good passage to read:
[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 1:10-13[/BIBLEDRB]
Don’t fuss which Bishop I belong to, ultimately I am with Christ
a. I have discussed the issue with the Bishop and I will go by what he said over what anyone here would say.
b. I’m not the one asking for help on this thread. While I appreciate people’s advice, I’m not seeking them. I know what I need to do and I’m confident with my decision.
c. I don’t think I’m going to hell because I’m canonically Latin while following a legitimate Bishop of the Church and living an Eastern spirituality. So please don’t be overly concerned, starting to live the Eastern spirituality has increased my love of God, not diminish it.
With that, here’s a good passage to read:
[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 1:10-13[/BIBLEDRB]
Don’t fuss which Bishop I belong to, ultimately I am with Christ
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Aramis
Guest
Constantine:
We’re correcting you because you’re giving anti-canonical advice based upon a conversation with a bishop not canonically your own.
We’re correcting you because you’re giving anti-canonical advice based upon a conversation with a bishop not canonically your own.
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Vico
Guest
I am obligate to speak up when ignoring the canons is advised.
Blessed Pope John Paul II wrote, regarding the canon law:
…
This being so, it appears sufficiently clear that the Code is in no way intended as a substitute for faith, grace and the charisms in the life of the Church and of the faithful. On the contrary, its purpose is rather to create such an order in the ecclesial society that, while assigning the primacy to faith, grace and the charisms, it at the same time renders easier their organic development in the life both of the ecclesial society and of the individual persons who belong to it.
The Code, as the principal legislative document of the Church, founded on the juridical-legislative heritage of Revelation and Tradition, is to be regarded as an indispensable instrument to ensure order both in individual and social life, and also in the Church’s activity itself. Therefore, besides containing the fundamental elements of the hierarchical and organic structure of the Church as willed by her divine Founder, or as based upon apostolic, or in any case most ancient, tradition, and besides the fundamental principles which govern the exercise of the threefold office entrusted to the Church itself, the Code must also lay down certain rules and norms of behavior.
…
I therefore exhort all the faithful to observe the proposed legislation with a sincere spirit and good will in the hope that there may flower again in the Church a renewed discipline; and that consequently the salvation of souls may be rendered ever easier under the protection of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of the Church.
Sacrae disciplinae leges (1983)
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_jp-ii_apc_25011983_sacrae-disciplinae-leges_en.html
Blessed Pope John Paul II wrote, regarding the canon law:
…
This being so, it appears sufficiently clear that the Code is in no way intended as a substitute for faith, grace and the charisms in the life of the Church and of the faithful. On the contrary, its purpose is rather to create such an order in the ecclesial society that, while assigning the primacy to faith, grace and the charisms, it at the same time renders easier their organic development in the life both of the ecclesial society and of the individual persons who belong to it.
The Code, as the principal legislative document of the Church, founded on the juridical-legislative heritage of Revelation and Tradition, is to be regarded as an indispensable instrument to ensure order both in individual and social life, and also in the Church’s activity itself. Therefore, besides containing the fundamental elements of the hierarchical and organic structure of the Church as willed by her divine Founder, or as based upon apostolic, or in any case most ancient, tradition, and besides the fundamental principles which govern the exercise of the threefold office entrusted to the Church itself, the Code must also lay down certain rules and norms of behavior.
…
I therefore exhort all the faithful to observe the proposed legislation with a sincere spirit and good will in the hope that there may flower again in the Church a renewed discipline; and that consequently the salvation of souls may be rendered ever easier under the protection of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of the Church.
Sacrae disciplinae leges (1983)
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_jp-ii_apc_25011983_sacrae-disciplinae-leges_en.html
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mardukm
Guest
I am all for following the canons.
But I think this discussion must be balanced with the fact that when a Latin Catholic canonically tranfers to a non-Latin Catholic Church, the only thing that is practically required is the approval of the non-Latin bishop.
If the Ukranian bishop treats him as a member his Church, then maybe there is something to be said for that.
Blessings,
Marduk
But I think this discussion must be balanced with the fact that when a Latin Catholic canonically tranfers to a non-Latin Catholic Church, the only thing that is practically required is the approval of the non-Latin bishop.
If the Ukranian bishop treats him as a member his Church, then maybe there is something to be said for that.
Blessings,
Marduk
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I believe that the Latin Bishop must release him.
Also there has been no canonical transfer in this case.
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malphono
Guest
In order for a canonical transfer to be effected, the petitioner must be both accepted by Bishop B of Church 2 and released by Bishop A of Church 1. To spare redundancy, I’ll merely reference an earlier [post=7964492]post[/post] I made in this thread.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
We’re spending so much energy on this. Am I committing mortal sin by following the Ukrainian Bishop?
Also, if the Bishop isn’t fussing about it, why are we? Wouldn’t a Bishop know what is and what is not, with the authority to make such judgments?
And not that I want to discredit people here, but what are your credentials over a Bishop?
Also, if the Bishop isn’t fussing about it, why are we? Wouldn’t a Bishop know what is and what is not, with the authority to make such judgments?
And not that I want to discredit people here, but what are your credentials over a Bishop?
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ciero
Guest
Constantine…if I may add my 2 cents…just ignore these armchair canonists and follow the advice of Bishop Ken all this BS is getting ridiculous!!
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Like I said earlier, I won’t take any other non-authorative advice on the matter. I don’t recall there being a Latin heaven and a Ukrainian heaven, St. Peter isn’t checking for canonical enrollment at the gate.Constantine…if I may add my 2 cents…just ignore these armchair canonists and follow the advice of Bishop Ken all this BS is getting ridiculous!!
V
Vico
Guest
You cannot answer that first question without examining your intentions and being aware if you have been placed in the care of that Ukrainian Bishop through law or by the Latin Church or the Holy See. Even if in the care of another Church sui iuris the canons are to be followed for the ascribed Church. (Not to do so can result in invalidity of some sacraments/mysteries.) The CIC and CCEO state this.
The bishop may or may not know the canon laws, however there is no point in speculating, and the bishop may be asked directly. Byzantine Metropolitan Basil Schott did say (in the book introduction) that there is a lack of knowledge on the laws and recommended the book (*) below to the faithful and to episcopate and presbyterate. It is certain that those that have taken Holy Orders are to follow the canon laws, yet there are some permissions and dispensations that can be made in accord with canon law.
All laws have specific subjects defined. Where there are multiple eparcies overlapping (multiple jurisdictions) then the faithful are subject to bishop of the territory (or personal parish) of their own ascribed Church* sui iuris* even though regularly participating in a parish of a different Church sui iuris. Yet a bishop may be granted authority over those in another Church sui iuris by their ascribed Church sui iuris or the Holy See, and this can take the form or agreements for the territory.
I gave only authorative sources of the Catholic Church in my posts (but not all of these have been in this thread):
Eastern Canon Law CCEO (Code of canons of Oriental Churches)
Particular Law of the Ukrainian Catholic Church
Particular Law of the Byzantine Catholic Church
Latin Canon Law CIC (Codex Iuris Canonici)
Pastor Bonus
New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law
** Inter-Ecclesial Relations Between Eastern and Latin Catholics*
Comparative Sacramental Discipline in the CCEO and CIC
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Again, not meaning to be offensive here, but isn’t it presumptive to say you are correct and a Bishop who has studied the Church extensively for a better part of his life is wrong?
Besides, he has the power to bind and loose, you don’t.
Besides, he has the power to bind and loose, you don’t.
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mardukm
Guest
Dear brother ConstantineTG,
Blessings,
Marduk
I lean towards your position, but, to be fair, I seriously doubt that brothers Vico, Aramis, Malphono and others are claiming they have more knowledge or authority than a bishop. I’ve only seen them appeal to the Canons, not to some personal authority.
Blessings,
Marduk
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malphono
Guest
I cannot speak for others, but that is correct, at least for my intent. I have to add here that I did not address a particular person’s (or poster’s) situation, nor did I mean to do so. Such things are not my concern.
In any case, the law is very clear on the matter. Anyone who wishes that it were not what it is is free to do so, but that doesn’t change either the fact that the law is the law, or the fact that the law says what it says.
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Formosus
Guest
Imho, i think these canons are meant more for latins who have no intention of changing churches to keep them attending their church for holy days and receiving certain sacraments, not to restrict those that are discerning a call to live and breathe the spirituality and theology of a particular eastern church.
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Vico
Guest
A bishop has the power to bind and loose sins, by his faculties or by law from his office. That is a different issue.
I am not saying that the bishop is wrong, you do not understand what I wrote. Also, how could I with no quotes from the bishop to refer to?
I am not saying that I am correct, rather posting what is in the canons and books on the canons, including those writings from the Holy See and Bishops, in writing, explaining that the faithful (including the clerics) follow the canons!
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