Justice: a heaven and hell question

[Credo_in_Deum]

My question is how is this just in any way? Over the course of their lives Diana was a much better person than Mike, but because she died at a time when she was sinning she went to hell. Mike, overall, was a horrible person, but he managed to save himself because he died during a time when he was repentant. Essentially, the only point in their lives that mattered was the moment of death. How is that just?

I wonder if your defense for Diana would work in a courtroom. Should someone who committed murder for the first time be set free since they gave to charity for many years prior to committing said murder? According to you they should be let go and that this would be justice served. I on the other hand would rather take the just approach and not give a murderer a get out of jail free card just because they gave to charity in the past.

 

[Julia_Mae]

She dies in a state of mortal sin, and thus goes straight to hell.

Nah. Dying in a state of mortal sin can put you in grave danger of hell. God’s outrageous mercy comes to bear! He wants everyone to be saved. And besides, we can’t judge the extent of her sin.

The priest absolves him, he makes his confession, and walks outside, where he is immediately shot and killed by a member of his gang who is there to prevent him from giving them away. Since he dies in a state of grace he goes immediately to heaven.

Praise the Lord! I told you He wants everyone to be saved!

How is that just?

You know, you aren’t talking about anything that really happened, right? You are depicting a rather simplistic view of the theology of salvation. God is not bound by anything, not by anything we believe or say or imagine or declare. God has made Himself known to us and His desire is for everyone to be saved.

Trust that.

Pray for everyone.

 

[nightranger]

giving them away. Since he dies in a state of grace he goes immediately to heaven.

Actually, he would probably do time in purgatory first. But that is just a guess

My question is how is this just in any way?

I can’t see it as a just thing either. But those are the things we as catholics are blindly required to follow if we want to get to heaven.
You on the other hand, are more likely to reach heaven than I am.

Since you are an atheist, and hence have no knowledge of Divine truth, you will be saved because you can’t be condemned for lack of knowledge.

I however, will be constantly under threat of damnation since if I commit a mortal sin and am unable to confess it before death, hell is where I’m bound.

 

[Poseidon]

I wonder if your defense for Diana would work in a courtroom. Should someone who committed murder for the first time be set free since they gave to charity for many years prior to committing said murder? According to you they should be let go and that this would be justice served. I on the other hand would rather take the just approach and not give a murderer a get out of jail free card just because they gave to charity in the past.

Diana didn’t actually kill anyone, it was Mike that killed her. Diana’s sins were drugs and sex. However, had she murdered someone then the answer is no, she shouldn’t be given a pass because of past moral behavior. My point was that Mike was given a free pass on all sorts of horrible things, because he went to confession and then died, whereas Diana died while in a brief period of sin and was condemned because of it.

 

[Jitterbug]

Diana didn’t actually kill anyone, it was Mike that killed her. Diana’s sins were drugs and sex. However, had she murdered someone then the answer is no, she shouldn’t be given a pass because of past moral behavior. My point was that Mike was given a free pass on all sorts of horrible things, because he went to confession and then died, whereas Diana died while in a brief period of sin and was condemned because of it.

So if you’re not going to give grace because of past actions, why should damnation be given because of past actions?

Isn’t that a double standard?

 

[slywakka250]

It breaks my heart to read discussions like this, as the thought of anybody in hell, no matter if chosen or deserved, is the most terrifying thought I can imagine…

The hypothetical situation with Diana and Mike is no joke. It becomes completely real as soon as we assert that eternal hell is a real possibility for any individual human being, as Catholic doctrine very explicitly teaches.

Consider those who die at very young ages, say under one year old. Many of these people are baptized, and very likely go straight to eternal bliss, without being exposed to hardly any real risk of damnation.

those of us who live long lives, are exposed to years and years of risk. We could all fall into mortal sin any day. And of course if we die without repenting of mortal sin, we are damned, as stated in Church teaching.

So the system isn’t fair. Some DO avoid hell very easily, while other avoid hell only with great difficulty, or with tremendous luck as in our hypothetical.

If the avoidance of hell is the only outcome we consider, some avoid hell by dying young, where if they lived longer they may have gone there.

So therefore,

Given that a human being X exists, the probability of X going to hell is DIFFERENT depending on external factors.

And there is our ****-shoot…God clearly plays favorites…Its messy…God gambles with our souls…there’s a lot of suffering to be done in hell for the unlucky …the system is absolutely terrifying…I don’t know how anyone can live under it…

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Diana didn’t actually kill anyone, it was Mike that killed her. Diana’s sins were drugs and sex. However, had she murdered someone then the answer is no, she shouldn’t be given a pass because of past moral behavior. My point was that Mike was given a free pass on all sorts of horrible things, because he went to confession and then died, whereas Diana died while in a brief period of sin and was condemned because of it.

The example of the person in the courtroom wasn’t Diana; in fact it wasn’t anyone specifically. It was rather my means of showing that you hold a double standard on justice. You believe God who is a judge should do things which are unjust for human judges to do; which is letting someone go for a present crime simply because they did “good” things in the past.

So if you’re not going to give grace because of past actions, why should damnation be given because of past actions?

Isn’t that a double standard?

 

[PRmerger]

There’s a lot of suffering to be done in hell for the unlucky …the system is absolutely terrifying…I don’t know how anyone can live under it…

Yes, it *is *absolutely terrifying. :sad_yes: And I don’t know how anyone could live under it without knowing of the unfathomable love of God and the joy of being a Christian.

 

[PRmerger]

So the system isn’t fair. Some DO avoid hell very easily, while other avoid hell only with great difficulty, or with tremendous luck as in our hypothetical.

No, skywakka. They avoid hell in the same way anyone above the age of reason does: by God’s grace.

If the avoidance of hell is the only outcome we consider, some avoid hell by dying young, where if they lived longer they may have gone there.

So therefore,

Given that a human being X exists, the probability of X going to hell is DIFFERENT depending on external factors.

And there is our ****-shoot…God clearly plays favorites…

But it’s a positive favorite. Both are given the chance at positive outcomes. Human being X that dies after 30 days on earth most likely gets a positive destiny. Human being Y that dies after 36,524 days on earth also has a great chance at a positive destiny, given a multitude of opportunities to say YES to God.

 

[Viki63]

However, over the course of a few months Diana becomes unsatisfied with her life, and wants to start living a little more “wildly.” She experiments with drugs, and soon becomes addicted to cocaine. While under the influence she sleeps around, and one of the people she sleeps with is Mike. They get into an argument, which becomes violent, and that night Mike kills Diana. She dies in a state of mortal sin, and thus goes straight to hell.
?

This is what really happened to Diana: Over the course of a few months Diana becomes unsatisfied with her life, and wants to start living a little more “wildly.” She experiments with drugs, and soon becomes addicted to cocaine. While under the influence she sleeps around, and one of the people she sleeps with is Mike. They get into an argument, which becomes violent, and that night Mike kills Diana.
As she is dying, she realizes through God’s grace, since He has never abandoned her, and people she may not even know are praying for her, that she has made some terrible mistakes, and she is filled with remorse. As darkness overtakes her, she hears God calling her name, and is able to respond mentally with a repentant thought, maybe not even a thought, merely an urge: God seizes the instant and she is forgiven and goes immediately to purgatory, to end eventually in heaven.
God is the father of the prodigal son, ever on the alert, watching for him to come home.

 

[Poseidon]

This is what really happened to Diana: Over the course of a few months Diana becomes unsatisfied with her life, and wants to start living a little more “wildly.” She experiments with drugs, and soon becomes addicted to cocaine. While under the influence she sleeps around, and one of the people she sleeps with is Mike. They get into an argument, which becomes violent, and that night Mike kills Diana.
As she is dying, she realizes through God’s grace, since He has never abandoned her, and people she may not even know are praying for her, that she has made some terrible mistakes, and she is filled with remorse. As darkness overtakes her, she hears God calling her name, and is able to respond mentally with a repentant thought, maybe not even a thought, merely an urge: God seizes the instant and she is forgiven and goes immediately to purgatory, to end eventually in heaven.
God is the father of the prodigal son, ever on the alert, watching for him to come home.

But what if she died instantly, and there was no opportunity for those thoughts to go through her head?

 

[Jitterbug]

But what if she died instantly, and there was no opportunity for those thoughts to go through her head?

Then we can assume she will go to hell.

The point here is: she should have even more responsibility for her actions as she was on the straight and narrrow and CHOSE to sin on purpose.

 

[sw85]

Mike is a guy who’s rotten through and through. He was raised a Catholic and was baptized, had first communion and Reconciliation, but he left all that behind at a young age. He’s been in a gang since he was a teenager, and has taken part in all sorts of criminal activity. He’s helped his gang rob homes, stores, and people, sell drugs to adults and children, has personally killed several people, and has helped with the deaths of dozens of other people. He is 35.

Diana is by all measures an upstanding citizen and overall a great person. She works hard, attends church and is involved in all sorts of church activities, gives a large percentage of her income to charity, volunteers at soup kitchens, helps the poor, and is constantly on the lookout for other good things to do. She is also 35.

However, over the course of a few months Diana becomes unsatisfied with her life, and wants to start living a little more “wildly.” She experiments with drugs, and soon becomes addicted to cocaine. While under the influence she sleeps around, and one of the people she sleeps with is Mike. They get into an argument, which becomes violent, and that night Mike kills Diana. She dies in a state of mortal sin, and thus goes straight to hell.

After killing Diana Mike becomes extremely remorseful, and sees how despicable his life has been. He decides he wants to turn his life around, and starts out by going to Church. A few weeks later he begins talking to the Priest, and after a week of that decides that he wants to go to Confession. He does so, and confesses all his crimes and his evil lifestyle. The priest absolves him, he makes his confession, and walks outside, where he is immediately shot and killed by a member of his gang who is there to prevent him from giving them away. Since he dies in a state of grace he goes immediately to heaven.

My question is how is this just in any way? Over the course of their lives Diana was a much better person than Mike, but because she died at a time when she was sinning she went to hell. Mike, overall, was a horrible person, but he managed to save himself because he died during a time when he was repentant. Essentially, the only point in their lives that mattered was the moment of death. How is that just?

They both deserve to go to Hell. You deserve to go to Hell. I deserve to go to Hell.

Justice means everyone getting what they deserve. Therefore justice means everyone going to Hell. Get it?

 

[snarflemike]

It’s not really important. Mike could have had his conversion while in prison, and then been executed or died some other way. The point is that he was horrible for 99% of his life and good for 1% and was saved, while Diana was good 99% of her life and bad for 1% and was damned.

Everybody is so quick to see into the hearts of others and convict them of mortal sin. What’s that saying again: “Who made you God?”

 

[Viki63]

But what if she died instantly, and there was no opportunity for those thoughts to go through her head?

My point is that God is in charge of these things, He does not leave them up to chance. There is a saint - no idea who - who had it revealed to her that at everyone’s death, Christ calls their name and tries to win them to Him. It is not the will of God that anyone should die, but that all should turn from their wickedness and live.
Some may choose to turn from Him, but I am certain it will not be for lack of His trying to win them. How far would you go to win the heart of your child who had run away?

 

[Julia_Mae]

But what if she died instantly, and there was no opportunity for those thoughts to go through her head?

You can’t posit situations about supernatural events as someone who doesn’t believe there is anything supernatural and then design a universe to your own specifications and object when you get answers from the REAL universe you don’t believe in that don’t fit the fantasy reality you invented.

YOU DON’T THINK INSIDE YOUR HEAD AFTER YOU PASS. You don’t think much inside your head while you are here. Eternity is a non-local state of being. What would be a split-second to you is actually all the time needed to contemplate your life when you pass.

No one is necessarily going INSTANTLY anywhere. Freewill is not abrogated by passing on. God’s justice is perfect, and will be for you, too.

 

[snarflemike]

You can’t posit situations about supernatural events as someone who doesn’t believe there is anything supernatural and then design a universe to your own specifications and object when you get answers from the REAL universe you don’t believe in that don’t fit the fantasy reality you invented.

YOU DON’T THINK INSIDE YOUR HEAD AFTER YOU PASS. You don’t think much inside your head while you are here. Eternity is a non-local state of being. What would be a split-second to you is actually all the time needed to contemplate your life when you pass.

No one is necessarily going INSTANTLY anywhere. Freewill is not abrogated by passing on. God’s justice is perfect, and will be for you, too.

Indeed, God’s time is not our time. God can certainly assure that we are given a full opportunity to repent in the microseconds between the first atom fissioning and the fireball vaporizing. Only a materialist would not understand this.

The OP has snuck a number of assumptions into his argument, and I object to them all. In no particular order they are

a) That grave matter is automatically mortal sin. Unfortunately many Catholics seem to believe the same, even though the Church teaching on this is quite clear.

b) That somebody who has sought to live a Godly life for years could suddenly cast this all away, not out of deliberate choice but “by mistake”. I can only say that, after returning to the Church, when my sins have approached grave matter I was tormented and repentent beyond what the OP could likely imagine.

c) As noted above, that some people, by pure dumb bad luck, will never be afforded an opportunity to repent before death, as though God might be caught unawares by events in this world.

Reject all these assumptions and the OP’s problem vanishes.

 

[teachccd]

I get this a lot on here. “Why would an atheist ask that?” Well, I can be interested in something even if I don’t think it’s true. I like to come up with hypothetical “what if” scenarios, and I like to discuss them. I also like to think critically, and then get others’ (name removed by moderator)ut on my thoughts.

I don’t have to believe in something to enjoy thinking about it. I like talking about religion. So what? I also like reading fiction. Doesn’t mean I think it’s real.

That is mixing apples and oranges. Fiction is acknowledged as such by all and is designated as such on any fictional book. But believing in God is a very real essence in which most of the world population participates. So to come here and “play” with your ‘What if’s" is demeaning to those of us who know that God is very real. If talking about God really interests you then there is a deeper reality than you just “playing” on your keyboard. To invest so much time seeking others’ opinions on a Being that you are so sure doesn’t exist is either wasteful at best or offensive at worst.

We do not believe that God is fiction so for us to fall into your hypothetical research is really our attempt to have you find the truth. I will pray for you my friend that you do find the truth. In the meantime you can continue with your games but unlike you we are not playing…God bless you

 

[Poseidon]

They both deserve to go to Hell. You deserve to go to Hell. I deserve to go to Hell.

Justice means everyone getting what they deserve. Therefore justice means everyone going to Hell. Get it?

Hmm…I’ve never really seen the justice in original sin either: “I know I just created you and you’ve lived for all of three seconds, but you deserve eternal torture because you’re human.” But that’s a topic for another discussion. Actually, that may be my next thread…

 

[Poseidon]

That is mixing apples and oranges. Fiction is acknowledged as such by all and is designated as such on any fictional book. But believing in God is a very real essence in which most of the world population participates. So to come here and “play” with your ‘What if’s" is demeaning to those of us who know that God is very real. If talking about God really interests you then there is a deeper reality than you just “playing” on your keyboard. To invest so much time seeking others’ opinions on a Being that you are so sure doesn’t exist is either wasteful at best or offensive at worst.

We do not believe that God is fiction so for us to fall into your hypothetical research is really our attempt to have you find the truth. I will pray for you my friend that you do find the truth. In the meantime you can continue with your games but unlike you we are not playing…God bless you

If you’re offended by my questions you don’t have to answer them. I’m asking them because I’m legitimately interested, not because I want to play games with people. No one else seems to be offended though, so I’m going to keep asking them.