Justice Scalia Chastises Boston Newspaper

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Note too, the word the Justice is reported to have used.

See:straightdope.com/classics/a3_238.html
“As for fangooloo (in my neighborhood we pronounced it fongool), I’m afraid you’ve heard the expurgated translation. According to Kevin Beary’s Florentine Locutions (1991), it’s properly spelled vaffanculo, a contraction of va a fare in culo, and literally means “go do [it] in the —,” i.e., ------ off, ---- off, ---- you. “Some Italians affirm that the — referred to is that of one’s interlocutor, while others assert that the orifice in question is not yours or mine or anyone’s in particular, but rather the universal ----,” Beary says.” (my emendations)

Could you translate the gesture “I could care less”? Sure, and you could translate the alleged accompanying word somewhat less offensively, but the fact remains… It was a real crude thing to do.

btw where I grew up that particular gesture was usually accompanied by the expletive - Not always, but usually. Just like the Justice is alleged to have done.

I guess there are ignorant fools and naive ones, too.
 
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Adonis33:
If there’s one area in which I’d like to think I’m an expert, it’s in the meaning of Italian hand gestures. I’ve seen them all before I was 6 years old - not just at home but on the playground. And one thing I can tell you is that the hand gesture Justice Scalia is giving above is one I am very familiar with. Only an ignorant fool who has never spent 3 seconds among Italians - especially those whose families hail from Sicily (who like to think of themselves as “Sicilian” rather than “Italians”) - would think it’s obscene. It basically means “I could care less”.
According to my father, a first-generation American who spoke Italian before he knew a word of English, the very worst interpretation of this gesture is “go to hell” but it is almost always understood as something like “I could care less”. I don’t know any Italians, either here or in Italy, who consider it obscene or anything more than a gesture of annoyance. There are plenty worse out there and believe me, an Italian wouldn’t hesitate to use them if that’s what he really meant.

Personally, if that’s the worst thing a public figure ever does, I could care less (as I make the same gesture). I’m mightily sick of the PC police mentality in this country.
 
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johnnykins:
The gesture most certainly meant exactly what the reporter said it meant - at least when I was growing up. Maybe folks from Boston are less genteel than others.
It most certainly does not. My devout Catholic grandmother grew up 50 miles from Sicily and immigrated here after she was married. She used that gesture to me and my cousins (her grandchildren). Whenever we were out of line and misbehaving, my grandmother would use the gesture as meaning “I could careless”.

Unless you are willing to slander the intentions of my deceased grandmother, I would request you be better informed.
“There is no answer to ‘what it really means,’ because those gestures have different meanings in different locations, even in neighbouring locations,” said Janet Bavelas, a University of Victoria, British Columbia, psychologist who has studied human gestures.
The gesture typically means “I don’t know” in Portugal, “No!” in Naples, “You are lying” in Greece and “I don’t give a damn” in northern Italy, France and Tunisia, said David B. Givens of the Center for Nonverbal Studies in Spokane, Wash.
news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=132848&format=&page=2
 
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Adonis33:
If there’s one area in which I’d like to think I’m an expert, it’s in the meaning of Italian hand gestures. I’ve seen them all before I was 6 years old - not just at home but on the playground. And one thing I can tell you is that the hand gesture Justice Scalia is giving above is one I am very familiar with. Only an ignorant fool who has never spent 3 seconds among Italians - especially those whose families hail from Sicily (who like to think of themselves as “Sicilian” rather than “Italians”) - would think it’s obscene. It basically means “I could care less”.
Ditto.
 
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johnnykins:
the sign is exactly what was described - and the photographer claims the Justice added a spoken obscenity.
Not the full story: The first reports had everyone thinking Scalia gave the bird (middle finger).

Now that the Herald is on the defense, they added Scalia used foul language. If he used foul language, wouldn’t it be in the first reports? Why is this coming out now?
 
What was the purpose of reporters following around Scalia?

Intimidation

Step aside, Nino. Expect to hear that phrase repeated often, as liberals increasingly strive to find ways to keep conservative justices - especially this conservative justice - from voting on cases.

One of the week’s big news stories was the dramatic account of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, accosted outside a Boston Mass, using a Sicilian hand gesture to explain what he would say to people who question his very public commitment to Catholicism. The implicit question wasn’t whether it was alright for a judge to be a practicing Catholic. Instead, it was whether Scalia was improperly committed to positions on cases coming before the Court. Especially on matters like abortion, where the Catholic Church has an official position.

Scalia’s gesture said, “I’ve got strong views and strong religious beliefs, but as a judge I follow the law - and I’m not going to spend time explaining myself to others; now leave me alone.” Of course, giving the gesture a more colorful meaning makes a better story. But for those looking to have something to say, anything connected to the accusation would be enough.

The implication that Scalia, as a devout Catholic, would follow Catholic dogma, rather than the law, is deeply offensive. Its offensive to Scalia, a long-serving, respected jurist and devotee of the rule of law. It’s offensive to Catholics, a replay of the attacks on John F. Kennedy, who, opponents whispered, would as President be subservient to the Pope. More to the point, it’s offensive to our legal system. Our system works because judges are insulated against ordinary political forces, are subject to a whole series of checks on how they decide cases, and are supposed to come to the cases as impartial decision-makers - not as blank slates, but as men and women who have not pre-committed their votes. That is essential to the rule of law.

Yet publicly committing to a position - or to a set of beliefs and interpretations - is exactly what liberal Senators and the interest groups that support them were demanding during the recent confirmation hearings of Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Samuel Alito. No one on the Left seemed concerned that the nominees would be open to criticism, or even recusal, if they declared on the record that the Constitution contained a right to privacy that protected women seeking abortions from state interference or if they embraced a particularly expansive vision of such a right.

The game now is to find a way of making it seem that Scalia’s personal life and conduct commit him to positions on important legal issues in a way that interferes with his ability to decide matters impartially - not because Scalia has in fact done so and not because his accusers care about impartiality. Instead, the game matters because Scalia is the leading voice for a set of legal propositions that run counter to the political, social, and constitutional agenda of the dominant voices in almost every major element of America’s Speaking elites.

That is why Justice Scalia’s comings and goings, his associations, his speeches, all have become the focus of media attention. It is not simply his Catholicism that is an issue. It is anything he says and does that can be grist for a demand that he step aside from a case where his participation would matter. The new Scalia Watch didn’t come about merely because he is lively, engaging, and willing to speak with relative candor and clarity on some of the most difficult and divisive issues to come before the Court.

Far more, it reflects a dedicated effort to make him a news item in hopes of disqualifying him from deciding, or limiting his influence on, those very issues. The growing interest in making Scalia newsworthy reflects a change in the political fortunes of liberal causes and of the Democrat Party. If you don’t win elections - so your party doesn’t control the White House, the Senate, the House of Representatives, or most State Houses - the courts by default become the instrument of choice for implementing your political views.

Unless we recognize that the courts are supposed to be separate from politics - and that we should not treat our judges the way we do our politicians - we risk permanent injury to the rule of law. People pressing an agenda that puts this at risk should receive a more meaningful Sicilian salute than the one Scalia deployed.
Justice Scalia’s gesture shouldn’t be the big news story. The effort to make him into news should.

realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/03/stalking_justice.html
 
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Hildebrand:
It most certainly does not. My devout Catholic grandmother grew up 50 miles from Sicily and immigrated here after she was married. She used that gesture to me and my cousins (her grandchildren). Whenever we were out of line and misbehaving, my grandmother would use the gesture as meaning “I could careless”.

Unless you are willing to slander the intentions of my deceased grandmother, I would request you be better informed.

news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=132848&format=&page=2
I have no idea about your grandmother - I repeat when I grew up it meant what was reported. The alleged verbal statement is completely consistent with that, too.
 
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Hildebrand:
Not the full story: The first reports had everyone thinking Scalia gave the bird (middle finger).

Now that the Herald is on the defense, they added Scalia used foul language. If he used foul language, wouldn’t it be in the first reports? Why is this coming out now?
The first I saw the story - it accurately described the gesture. As to the other issues - I don’t know.

The reporter was certainly out of line. As a Justice Scalia should have known better than to respond as he did. But, he’s human, too.

In any event, it’s not a big deal.
 
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johnnykins:
The first I saw the story - it accurately described the gesture. As to the other issues - I don’t know.
The first reports did not include of discription of what Scalia did. They let rumors run through the media and left it up to Scalia to explain what he did. Later on, they added Scalia was “flicking his hand under his chin”.
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johnnykins:
The reporter was certainly out of line. As a Justice Scalia should have known better than to respond as he did. But, he’s human, too.
There is nothing obscene in the gesture. It can be taken as rude, just as waving your hand down in the air at someone is rude and dismissive. It is not obscene.
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johnnykins:
In any event, it’s not a big deal.
When you are the one being slandered and targeted for intimidation & character assassination, it is a big deal.
 
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johnnykins:
I have no idea about your grandmother - I repeat when I grew up it meant what was reported.
Your experience is with vulgar people from Boston. Vulgar people’s actions are vulgar. I am not surprised vulgar people would be at the same time rude and obscene.

Non-vulgar people have used that gesture for a long time as a dismissive gesture.
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johnnykins:
The alleged verbal statement is completely consistent with that, too.
You mean the accusation that came out a couple days after the incident? After the first accusation that he used a obscene gesture turned out to be false.
 
johnnykins, pardon me if I seem a bit skeptical of the later accusation (Scalia used obscene language along with the gesture).

The first attempt at slander did not work. Why would I believe their second accusation? I am not saying it is impossible. I am just not buying it at this moment.
 
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Hildebrand:
johnnykins, pardon me if I seem a bit skeptical of the later accusation (Scalia used obscene language along with the gesture).

The first attempt at slander did not work. Why would I believe their second accusation? I am not saying it is impossible. I am just not buying it at this moment.
Look, I really don’t have a dog in this hunt. I think quite highly of the Justice. The reporter was way out of line.

My comments on the gesture are simply an accurate reflection of what my experience has been. In my experience the gesture, especially if true that he used the obscenity, was obscene - and thus not a slander to say so. The Boston press is certainly no friend of the Church. Whether the obscene comment was made or not, I don’t know. But, I do know from my experience it frequently accompanies that gesture. Maybe it was made up.

At worst the Justice was reacting in a very human way to an inflamatory question. At best he was misinterpreted and the photographer is a liar. I don’t know - or really care. Again, it’s politics - and the Courts are subject to that - for good/bad - whether we like it or not.
 
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stellina:
According to my father, a first-generation American who spoke Italian before he knew a word of English, the very worst interpretation of this gesture is “go to hell” but it is almost always understood as something like “I could care less”. I don’t know any Italians, either here or in Italy, who consider it obscene or anything more than a gesture of annoyance. There are plenty worse out there and believe me, an Italian wouldn’t hesitate to use them if that’s what he really meant.

Personally, if that’s the worst thing a public figure ever does, I could care less (as I make the same gesture). I’m mightily sick of the PC police mentality in this country.
Dittos:thumbsup: & Bravo!:clapping:
 
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