Justification and Salvation

[Snerticus]

Okay, I’m Catholic and am confused. A good friend of mine who is in the reformed church tried to explain justification and salvation to me. Basically what it came down to was first we are saved and then we are justified. From my own beliefs, I say we are first justified which then quailifies us for salvation. There are numerous passages in the new testament which seem to imply either.

What to Protestants say and what do Catholics say? Although it may cause some high tempers, please try and keep this peacable.

I just would like to know. I’m a bit confused on this point. 'Prolly should look it up in the CCC, I know.

Thanks.

 

[Deconi]

Okay, I’m Catholic and am confused. A good friend of mine who is in the reformed church tried to explain justification and salvation to me. Basically what it came down to was first we are saved and then we are justified. From my own beliefs, I say we are first justified which then quailifies us for salvation. There are numerous passages in the new testament which seem to imply either.

What to Protestants say and what do Catholics say? Although it may cause some high tempers, please try and keep this peacable.

I just would like to know. I’m a bit confused on this point. 'Prolly should look it up in the CCC, I know.

Thanks.

The Reformers problem is the erroneous belief you actually KNOW you’re saved! We (Catholics) do not say so, because one is never assured salvation until the Great Judgement!

One can also lose your justification. King David was a just and righteous man, until Bathsheba. Reformers think when you’re saved, you’re saved!

St Paul, a righteous man, only HOPED that he will be saved, in spite clearly stating that he has laboured harder than all The Apostles! This is because he understands that we cannot say we are saved, lest we boast…as some reformers do!

No Catholic says, or should ever say, that another human being is saved or not saved! That is not our mandate nor our business.

"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling./…and persevere 'til the end" …is what we know and teach.

 

[JonNC]

The Reformers problem is the erroneous belief you actually KNOW you’re saved! We (Catholics) do not say so, because one is never assured salvation until the Great Judgement!

One can also lose your justification. King David was a just and righteous man, until Bathsheba. Reformers think when you’re saved, you’re saved!

St Paul, a righteous man, only HOPED that he will be saved, in spite clearly stating that he has laboured harder than all The Apostles! This is because he understands that we cannot say we are saved, lest we boast…as some reformers do!

No Catholic says, or should ever say, that another human being is saved or not saved! That is not our mandate nor our business.

"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling./…and persevere 'til the end" …is what we know and teach.

From a Lutheran perspective, one can certainly lose their salvation, by rejecting their justification, driving the HS out with lost or dead faith.

When we say we have assurance in our salvation, we are speaking of Christ’s promise, and the new covenant in His death and ressurection. There is no boasting in that. And we do not deny the free will of the regenerate to reject salvation.

Jon

 

[ralphinal]

First, we must see what is meant by these terms. The Bible is little help, because Paul uses jastification for more than one state. If we dig a little into context, we can split it up and make sense of it.

Justification is the state that our soul is in after baptism due to the work of Jesus Christ. Nothing can change that state. When we are baptised, our state is put right in the eyes of God because Jesus paid our blodd debt for our sins. One must be justified to be saved.

Sanctification is the continous state that we must work on while on earth. God gives us grace through the sacraments that aid us in this work. It is up to us to act upon that grace, to avoid sin, and to do the works that Jesus asks of us. We lose our sanctity when we sin, and we can gain it again through confession. We must die in a state of sanctity to be saved.

Salvation is the state of a soul that dies both justified and sanctified. We were saved by Jesus on the Cross, but we must choose to live a holy life in order to make it to heaven. Paul writes about how he was saved, is working out his salvation, and if he makes it he will be saved. IN the end, no one is saved until they die in a state of grace (both justified and sanctified).

We cannot do anything to be justified outside of Jesus. We do have a part in sanctification.

I hope that this helps.

 

[nebula]

My understanding of the reformed position is this:

Salvation IS justification. At the moment of justification the sinner is saved. The rest of the Christian life includes sanctification. This is why reformed theology teaches perserverance of the saints, or ‘once saved, always saved’ because how can you take away the moment of justification and therefore salvation?

 

[Snerticus]

My understanding of the reformed position is this:

Salvation IS justification. At the moment of justification the sinner is saved. The rest of the Christian life includes sanctification. This is why reformed theology teaches perserverance of the saints, or ‘once saved, always saved’ because how can you take away the moment of justification and therefore salvation?

Yes she told me that once saved we are always saved because Christ can never take his sacrifice back. I explained to her that was certainly true, but man can reject Him. Then she told me that at that point they were never saved anyway.

I don’t buy that line… Who’s to say definitively that a person is saved if they can be easily deceived that they are saved when they are not? (I hope you understood that! If not, I can reword it in my next post.) That would mean that no one would be sure if they were saved or not, and then they would be Catholic! Okay, just kidding…

Anyway, Thanks for the posts, yes they did clarify things… to a point. I’m still not sure why she said salvation came before justification though. I must have misunderstood.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Yes she told me that once saved we are always saved because Christ can never take his sacrifice back. I explained to her that was certainly true, but man can reject Him. Then she told me that at that point they were never saved anyway.

I don’t buy that line… Who’s to say definitively that a person is saved if they can be easily deceived that they are saved when they are not? (I hope you understood that! If not, I can reword it in my next post.) That would mean that no one would be sure if they were saved or not, and then they would be Catholic! Okay, just kidding…

Anyway, Thanks for the posts, yes they did clarify things… to a point. I’m still not sure why she said salvation came before justification though. I must have misunderstood.

Consider this verse in Ezekial18:Ez18:24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. I would consider “the righteous” as one who beleives in Jesus Christ or is “saved”
Salvation apparently is a process
Rom10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Gal2:16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
So when we beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and confess Him as our Lord and Savior we are justified before a holy God. But the bible makes it plan that this faith must be sincere and show up in how we lead our lives. James2:18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Jn14:15 15If ye love me, keep my commandments. But it doesn’t end with a profession of faith. The rest of our lives we must become sanctified Jn17: 17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. Jn8:31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. Notice that Jesus says If you continue in My word, THEN are ye my disciples INDEED or you show that you are His by continuing in His word. This process of sanctification will ultimately lead to the final stage which is glorification Heb9:16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

So being “saved” is a process of 1. Justification 2. Sanctification and 3. Glorification. We are saved by the grace of God through the sacifice of Jesus. But we must do our part in faith.

In Christ Richard

 

[nebula]

Yes she told me that once saved we are always saved because Christ can never take his sacrifice back. I explained to her that was certainly true, but man can reject Him. Then she told me that at that point they were never saved anyway.

I don’t buy that line… Who’s to say definitively that a person is saved if they can be easily deceived that they are saved when they are not? (I hope you understood that! If not, I can reword it in my next post.) That would mean that no one would be sure if they were saved or not, and then they would be Catholic! Okay, just kidding…

Anyway, Thanks for the posts, yes they did clarify things… to a point. I’m still not sure why she said salvation came before justification though. I must have misunderstood.

It sounds like your friend was confused on the matter. The reformed answer to falling away would be, I believe, that the person who would fall away from the fundamentals of the true faith was never truly regeneration (i.e. justified) in the first place. You can look at 1 John as an example of this- they fell away because they were never of us in the first place. Also, they refer often to the verse in which Jesus states that no one can snatch his sheep from his hand. Or how about the verse that states- they would decieve the very elect, IF that were possible.

So, you can see how messy this gets pretty fast.

 

[NDfan]

Yes she told me that once saved we are always saved because Christ can never take his sacrifice back. I explained to her that was certainly true, but man can reject Him. Then she told me that at that point they were never saved anyway.

Snerticus this does not represent the majority of Reformed theology. OSAS is a very specific theology that is preached by presbyterians. Most other non RC denominations do not believe once saved always saved. The reason your friend stated they were never saved is because OSAS believers follow the doctrine of the elect. They preach efficacious grace which means that GOD spiritually re-generates only the elect. In other words only those whom HE decides to save. Once GOD saves you that’s it you are saved. You can’t reject Christ because free will is out of the equation. You have no choice but to be saved. So to an OSAS follower if you reject Christ then you’re either not in the elect yet or never will be. Does that help??

I don’t buy that line… Who’s to say definitively that a person is saved if they can be easily deceived that they are saved when they are not? (I hope you understood that! If not, I can reword it in my next post.) That would mean that no one would be sure if they were saved or not, and then they would be Catholic! Okay, just kidding…

I understand you here OSAS believers would say you can’t be deceived because GOD did the work. You won’t and can’t be deceived because you’re saved. You were pre-destined to be saved to begin with.

Anyway, Thanks for the posts, yes they did clarify things… to a point. I’m still not sure why she said salvation came before justification though. I must have misunderstood.

If she’s hard core OSAS then she believes that GOD saved her first by spiritually re-generating her. Once you are saved then you believe in Christ which is the justification part. You have to keep in mind that free will is out of the equation here. You and I believe we have to use our free will to choose Christ. OSAS believers don’t. GOD makes the choice for them.

Common verses from scripture that are used are from John 6 in which Christ states that no one can come to me unless the Father sends them.

Specifically John 6: 37, 39, 44-45, 65
Then there’s Romans 8 I believe verse 28 and also 30.

Hope I didn’t confuse you.

 

[SyCarl]

You can’t reject Christ because free will is out of the equation.

I think this is a little simplistic. My understanding is that a Calvinist does not deny freewill. An unregenerate person still has freewill, but that freewill will be exercised in accordance with their fallen nature. That nature will not allow them to choose God. An illustration I have seen is to imagine a starving tiger with a pile meat and a pile of hay in front of it.
The tiger is free to choose the hay but never will because it is against its nature as a carnivore. Regeneration changes the tiger into a sheep, which will then choose the hay.

God is the first cause but operates through freewill as a second cause.

 

[nebula]

Snerticus this does not represent the majority of Reformed theology. OSAS is a very specific theology that is preached by presbyterians. Most other non RC denominations do not believe once saved always saved. The reason your friend stated they were never saved is because OSAS believers follow the doctrine of the elect. They preach efficacious grace which means that GOD spiritually re-generates only the elect. In other words only those whom HE decides to save. Once GOD saves you that’s it you are saved. You can’t reject Christ because free will is out of the equation. You have no choice but to be saved. So to an OSAS follower if you reject Christ then you’re either not in the elect yet or never will be. Does that help??

I understand you here OSAS believers would say you can’t be deceived because GOD did the work. You won’t and can’t be deceived because you’re saved. You were pre-destined to be saved to begin with.

If she’s hard core OSAS then she believes that GOD saved her first by spiritually re-generating her. Once you are saved then you believe in Christ which is the justification part. You have to keep in mind that free will is out of the equation here. You and I believe we have to use our free will to choose Christ. OSAS believers don’t. GOD makes the choice for them.

Common verses from scripture that are used are from John 6 in which Christ states that no one can come to me unless the Father sends them.

Specifically John 6: 37, 39, 44-45, 65
Then there’s Romans 8 I believe verse 28 and also 30.

Hope I didn’t confuse you.

Presbyterians aren’t the only ones who accept the doctrine of the perserverance of the saints (and not all Presbyteerians, some are very liberal theologically). Anyone claiming to be a part of the Reformed tradition will accept this doctrine (i’ts the P of the famous TULIP acronym). There are reformed Baptists, reformed non denoms, and so on.

 

[Snerticus]

Thanks for all the posts. This is really interesting.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Okay, I’m Catholic and am confused. A good friend of mine who is in the reformed church tried to explain justification and salvation to me. Basically what it came down to was first we are saved and then we are justified. From my own beliefs, I say we are first justified which then quailifies us for salvation. There are numerous passages in the new testament which seem to imply either.

What to Protestants say and what do Catholics say? Although it may cause some high tempers, please try and keep this peacable.

I just would like to know. I’m a bit confused on this point. 'Prolly should look it up in the CCC, I know.

Thanks.

The Catechism explains it perfectly, as you would expect.

God’s grace is essential. Without it we can’t be saved. However, it only enables our salvation, it doesn’t not bring it to fruition without our cooperation.

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

 

[NDfan]

I think this is a little simplistic. My understanding is that a Calvinist does not deny freewill. An unregenerate person still has freewill, but that freewill will be exercised in accordance with their fallen nature. That nature will not allow them to choose God. An illustration I have seen is to imagine a starving tiger with a pile meat and a pile of hay in front of it.
The tiger is free to choose the hay but never will because it is against its nature as a carnivore. Regeneration changes the tiger into a sheep, which will then choose the hay.

God is the first cause but operates through freewill as a second cause.

SyCarl actually that’s not true. The initial spiritual re-generation that occurs within efficacious grace is a result outside of free will. It’s the work of the Holy Spirit that is so irresistible you can’t help but comply. You are made willing whereas before you were unwilling. Free will is not exercised by the believer at all.

What you are describing is a little more consistent with prevenient grace which was a doctrine supported by Augustine, the Methodist movement, the Arminians etc. Prevenient grace states that GOD spiritually re-generates everyone but then leaves it to their free will to choose Christ. Prior to spiritual re-generation you were unable to choose Christ but now you can. This is not efficacious grace and the doctrine of OSAS the OP is asking about.

 

[NDfan]

Presbyterians aren’t the only ones who accept the doctrine of the perserverance of the saints (and not all Presbyteerians, some are very liberal theologically). Anyone claiming to be a part of the Reformed tradition will accept this doctrine (i’ts the P of the famous TULIP acronym). There are reformed Baptists, reformed non denoms, and so on.

I wasn’t implying presbyterians were the only ones. Just using them as an example

 

[LutheranDK]

Okay, I’m Catholic and am confused. A good friend of mine who is in the reformed church tried to explain justification and salvation to me. Basically what it came down to was first we are saved and then we are justified. From my own beliefs, I say we are first justified which then quailifies us for salvation. There are numerous passages in the new testament which seem to imply either.

What to Protestants say and what do Catholics say? Although it may cause some high tempers, please try and keep this peacable.

I just would like to know. I’m a bit confused on this point. 'Prolly should look it up in the CCC, I know.

Thanks.

This really does seem to be one of the most deeply rooted points of divergence between the RC church and non-RC churches.

I wouldn’t have said it the way your friend did, because it’s easy to misunderstand from that wording.
We are JUSTIFIED first, then follows sanctification (growing in faith, good works, and charity). Of course, being saved is the same as justification. Justification, however, is not the same as sanctification. Justification is an event, whereas sanctification is a process.

From what I have gathered, the RC church teaches that justification and sanctification cannot be seperated - that justification is a process, not an event.

Feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken on this one

 

[SyCarl]

SyCarl actually that’s not true. The initial spiritual re-generation that occurs within efficacious grace is a result outside of free will. It’s the work of the Holy Spirit that is so irresistible you can’t help but comply. You are made willing whereas before you were unwilling. Free will is not exercised by the believer at all.

What you are describing is a little more consistent with prevenient grace which was a doctrine supported by Augustine, the Methodist movement, the Arminians etc. Prevenient grace states that GOD spiritually re-generates everyone but then leaves it to their free will to choose Christ. Prior to spiritual re-generation you were unable to choose Christ but now you can. This is not efficacious grace and the doctrine of OSAS the OP is asking about.

It depends on what works you read of Augustine’s. In his anti-Pelagian works, such as On the Predestination of the Saints, he takes a much stricter view on predestination. There he says that God did not predestine what He foreknew, but He predestined what He foreknew He Himself would do.

Calvinism is somewhat more subtle than you intimate. According to it, full regeneration takes place rather than the more Arminian prescient grace. However it is still our responsibility to believe even though once regenerated it is inevitable. It is why Calvinists can still pursue evangelism. While God has predestined things He still relies on second causes such as the preaching of the word and faith.

 

[nebula]

I wasn’t implying presbyterians were the only ones. Just using them as an example

Sorry!

 

[ralphinal]

This really does seem to be one of the most deeply rooted points of divergence between the RC church and non-RC churches.

I wouldn’t have said it the way your friend did, because it’s easy to misunderstand from that wording.
We are JUSTIFIED first, then follows sanctification (growing in faith, good works, and charity). Of course, being saved is the same as justification. Justification, however, is not the same as sanctification. Justification is an event, whereas sanctification is a process.

From what I have gathered, the RC church teaches that justification and sanctification cannot be seperated - that justification is a process, not an event.

Feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken on this one

I think that you might be, but it is not your fault. The Church, like St. Paul before her, uses Justification to indicate both the singular event in a person’s life where the work of the Cross is applied (Baptism) and the process by which we become holy due to the grace from the Trinity.

 

[NDfan]

It depends on what works you read of Augustine’s. In his anti-Pelagian works, such as On the Predestination of the Saints, he takes a much stricter view on predestination. There he says that God did not predestine what He foreknew, but He predestined what He foreknew He Himself would do.

Calvinism is somewhat more subtle than you intimate. According to it, full regeneration takes place rather than the more Arminian prescient grace. However it is still our responsibility to believe even though once regenerated it is inevitable. It is why Calvinists can still pursue evangelism. While God has predestined things He still relies on second causes such as the preaching of the word and faith.

SyCarl great feedback but I’m speaking strictly on what the OP was posting. The doctrines of OSAS and TULIP do not reflect strict Calvinist beliefs. Point of fact those who follow Calvinistic teachings will clarify that OSAS is a newer doctrine than traditional Calvinistic teachings. Those who follow OSAS and TULIP which is what the friend of the OP was referring to don’t believe you can fall away from salvation because that would mean you were not saved to begin with. They don’t believe free will can lead to a rejection of Christ once you are saved. If that happens then again you were not saved to begin with.