Justification by Faith?

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

Actually Kendy, you shouldn’t be so quick to judge my motives. I am glad you agree with me, but my post was not pointless. Here’s the deal. Luther stated that the doctrine of justification is the “doctrine by which the church stands or falls”. Thus, if you agree with Catholic teaching on justification, one of the two historic reasons for division cease to exist. Now there is only one (authority).

Furthermore, the majority of Evangelicals do not agree with me on this stance. For starters, my father in law is a Baptist minister. I have a lot of experience in discussing these issues with all kinds of Baptists. My wife is a convert. I have discussed these issues with several reformed, several non-denominational, etc, etc. Point being there does not seem to be a consensus on what they believe. The one thing I have found to unite the majority of them is that they disagree with the “Catholic” stance.

Finally, I do want to emphasize that I am glad you agree with the Catholic stance of grace, infusion, justification, etc. I also want to re-emphasize that if this is the case, maybe you need to look into some of the other issues a little harder. You might find that there is no need to be separate from Christ’s Church at all.

By the way, it’s sister, and I am sorry for attacking you. I was frustrated because I couldn’t figure out the difference between what I said and what you were saying.

You are right that justification was one of the major points of the disagreement, but I believe that the Lutheran Church and the Catholic Church signed an agreement on this some years ago. And it seemed that the Catholic Church conceded a lot more. In fact, the Wall Street Journal wrote an article saying that the Lutherans won. So, I am not sure that this has always been the church’s position.

As for the baptists that you have talked to I can’t argue with your experience. However, the only two catholics I currently know outside of family members do not believe that homosexuality is a sin. Ans when I was getting confirmed, the catholic priest teaching me said that sexuality (including homosexuality) is a gift from God. Yet, I know that is not the RCC’s position.

Likewise, that some evangelicals don’t agree with this does not mean that it is not the official position of their denomination. I can’t really speak for non-denominational churches since there are thousands of them, and each of them are independent. However, major protestant churches agree with this including important leaders and theologians. I attended a Southern Baptist church for many years and this was the message that was preached.

As for my being seperated from Christ’s church, I must say I am not at all seperated from Christ, who is the Lord of my life. I am however interested in unity in the body of believers so I am always glad to discover that we can agree on important aspects of our faith. But my hope that we could all being in Him extends far beyond my membership to the RCC. I think many devout catholics have a vision of protestants running back to the RCC someday in sorrowful repetence, which is not only unrealistic and a little insulting. For those of us who experienced Christ’s love and redemption and have been ministered by scripture and the Spirit outside the RCC, it’s little weird to be told this. I think there can be more hope for unity if all of us (catholics, and crazy southern baptist included) could adopt a more humble attitude. One that says:

We know that He wants us to be one. Our willful and sinful attitudes have prevented this from happening. How can we prayerful make this happen? How can we build on those things that already agree on? How can we search our hearts to determine the ways that we hinder this? What can we surrender for the sake of unity. Does the catholic really need to hold on to their view of the Virgin Mary? perhaps, but it can’t hurt to study and pray about it. Do evangelicals really need to insist on their views on revelation? Maybe, but I think it’s worth visiting this point of disagreement. I am not talking about compromising God’s word. I am talking about looking to scripture and the Holy Spirit to determine how we can make obey Jesus’s call to unity.

And more importantly, none of this can be achieved in a Spirit of arrogance, and there’s plenty of it on both sides. Rather we must recognize that the Holy Spirit has been gracious enough to glorify God in our lives despite the fact that we have disobeyed Jesus’s call to unified.

Now, of course, I realize I am the one is unrealistic.

In Him,
Kendy

 

[christaddict]

Kendy:

You are right that justification was one of the major points of the disagreement, but I believe that the Lutheran Church and the Catholic Church signed an agreement on this some years ago. And it seemed that the Catholic Church conceded a lot more. In fact, the Wall Street Journal wrote an article saying that the Lutherans won. So, I am not sure that this has always been the church’s position.

Hi kendy, I bolded the word believe there to emphasize the thing that reflects the overall approach. Where are the works? I mean, the proof

Kendy:

As for the baptists that you have talked to I can’t argue with your experience. However, the only two catholics I currently know outside of family members do not believe that homosexuality is a sin. Ans when I was getting confirmed, the catholic priest teaching me said that sexuality (including homosexuality) is a gift from God. Yet, I know that is not the RCC’s position.

Well, kendy I am sorry that you are disturbed by these things. Catholic Church is universal with one billion people who belong to it, and being universal it, spans the whole world. (I am from the other side of the planet, yet a Catholic.) Catholic Church’s position is ONE and is never changed according to fads of time. It holds strict position on the issues of homosexuality, contraception, abortion, etc. Just because of some traitors, we won’t abandon the country, would we?

Kendy:

As for my being seperated from Christ’s church, I must say I am not at all seperated from Christ, who is the Lord of my life. I am however interested in unity in the body of believers so I am always glad to discover that we can agree on important aspects of our faith. But my hope that we could all being in Him extends far beyond my membership to the RCC. I think many devout catholics have a vision of protestants running back to the RCC someday in sorrowful repetence, which is not only unrealistic and a little insulting. For those of us who experienced Christ’s love and redemption and have been ministered by scripture and the Spirit outside the RCC, it’s little weird to be told this. I think there can be more hope for unity if all of us (catholics, and crazy southern baptist included) could adopt a more humble attitude. One that says:

Well, you said it … seperation from the Christ’s church (and, I regret those things that you made you to do so) Well, here it is better to talk about the Church. Church as well know, is the body of Christ, it’s the followers in communion, right? it’s the real vine, with Christ being the cornerstone. He is the vine, we are the branches … how could I say I that a branch or a leaf is with the vine if it looks different from the rest of the vine? How could I say
that I am with Christ, if I am not in union with the followers? Did Christ form two different Churches? And, what happens to the herd if the sheep aren’t in union? How could the shephered tend the flock if they aren’t one?

(Here, I would like to know what exactly made you to seperate)

Kendy:

We know that He wants us to be one. Our willful and sinful attitudes have prevented this from happening. How can we prayerful make this happen? How can we build on those things that already agree on? How can we search our hearts to determine the ways that we hinder this? What can we surrender for the sake of unity. Does the catholic really need to hold on to their view of the Virgin Mary? perhaps, but it can’t hurt to study and pray about it. Do
evangelicals really need to insist on their views on revelation? Maybe, but I think it’s worth visiting this point of disagreement. I am not talking about compromising God’s word. I am talking about looking to scripture and the Holy Spirit to determine how we can make obey Jesus’s call to unity.

Yep, to know how to fix it, we need to know what caused it in the first place. It’s also good to know the Church’s history, it’s foundations … A quick question, who found the Catholic Church? When did it all start? Does it have diversity in doctrines? Is there a dispute right in the Catholic Church about the major issues of faith, etc. And, you will find that there is no reason to worry about diversity.

(Again I ask, what exactly made you to seperate, Kendy)

God Bless

 

[Kendy]

christaddict:

Hi kendy, I bolded the word believe there to emphasize the thing that reflects the overall approach. Where are the works? I mean, the proof
God Bless

Here are some excerpts from the Catholic lutheran agreement.

And the link is: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

1. The Common Understanding of Justification

14.The Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church have together listened to the good news proclaimed in Holy Scripture. This common listening, together with the theological conversations of recent years, has led to a shared understanding of justification. This encompasses a consensus in the basic truths; the differing explications in particular statements are compatible with it.

15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.

17.We also share the conviction that the message of justification directs us in a special way towards the heart of the New Testament witness to God’s saving action in Christ: it tells us that as sinners our new life is solely due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we receive in faith, and never can merit in any way.

1. Explicating the Common Understanding of Justification

4.1 Human Powerlessness and Sin in Relation to Justification

19.We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God’s grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:

4.2 Justification as Forgiveness of Sins and Making Righteous

22.We confess together that God forgives sin by grace and at the same time frees human beings from sin’s enslaving power and imparts the gift of new life in Christ. When persons come by faith to share in Christ, God no longer imputes to them their sin and through the Holy Spirit effects in them an active love. These two aspects of God’s gracious action are not to be separated, for persons are by faith united with Christ, who in his person is our righteousness (1 Cor 1:30): both the forgiveness of sin and the saving presence of God himself. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say that:

4.3 Justification by Faith and through Grace

25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God’s gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.

 

[Kendy]

Well, you said it … seperation from the Christ’s church (and, I regret those things that you made you to do so) Well, here it is better to talk about the Church. Church as well know, is the body of Christ, it’s the followers in communion, right? it’s the real vine, with Christ being the cornerstone. He is the vine, we are the branches … how could I say I that a branch or a leaf is with the vine if it looks different from the rest of the vine? How could I say
that I am with Christ, if I am not in union with the followers? Did Christ form two different Churches? And, what happens to the herd if the sheep aren’t in union? How could the shephered tend the flock if they aren’t one?

Yep, to know how to fix it, we need to know what caused it in the first place. It’s also good to know the Church’s history, it’s foundations … A quick question, who found the Catholic Church? When did it all start? Does it have diversity in doctrines? Is there a dispute right in the Catholic Church about the major issues of faith, etc. And, you will find that there is no reason to worry about diversity.

(Again I ask, what exactly made you to seperate, Kendy)

God Bless

I was not admitting to being seperated froom the body. I was just quoting what someone else said to me. As for as how can I say I am a follower of Christ if I am not in communion with other followers. Well, the same way you can since over half of all professed believers are not catholic. Although I disagree with you that the leaves are that different. I think there was similarities in the leaves.

Who founded the catholic church? I think the catholic church as it today developed over the course of many years. I think when the Roman Empire became catholic, the church had evolved from the faith of poor and enslaved that it started to a powerful institution which was occasionally co-opted by the powers that be. I believe that during this time, the catholic church nurtured the gospel, but I believe that there was also a lot of corruption and that the church did not always reflect the light of Christ as it should have. For hundreds of years before the reformation, the church persecuted dissenters. The reformation was the movement it could not quelch. I also believe (as I prepare myself for the attacks that will not befall me) that God nurtured the reformation. Why would go cause division in the body? Because it was necessary to pull the church from its corruption and hunger for power. The reformation forced the catholic church to examine itself, changed the course of Christianity, and provided Christians with a story of a personal God— something that the RCC seemed to have forgotten and seems to forget even now. This is not to say that nothing bad happened as a result, but only that God has used this for his glory. Just tonight I was watching a listening to the story about a woman who left the catholic church to join an evangelical church and came back to the RCC. And she talked about how she had to leave the RCC to realize that God is real, not just some distant super power who records your sins. And I have heard that story so often.

There are many great things about RCC. Recently, I have been interested in gender and the church, and I read John Paul writings on the matter. Out of everything I had read, and I had read much by evangelicals on this, it was the most intellectually and theological satisfying work I had read on the matter. The catholic church is very good at this type of thing, but they are not so good at communicating the heart of the gospel— that God loves you, that He gave His only begotten Son for You, and that He wants to redeem you and have fellowship with you.

I realize now that that is what the church “believes,” but I have obseved that it gets lost in the midst of all the rituals. Evangelicals shout this from the roof tops. If you get nothing else out of evangelical church, you will not get away without having heard that God loves you. And I think God very much wants to have that message preached and has blessed those who have committed themselves to doing it.

So, why did I leave the church? While in the church, I was being told to say three “Hails Marys” before bed and I didn’t know why and I didn’t care. But when I heard that they were people who were talking about the love God and the Joy of the Spirit, I got interested.

Kendy

 

[christaddict]

Kendy:

Well, you said it … seperation from the Christ’s church (and, I regret those things that you made you to do so) Well, here it is better to talk about the Church. Church as well know, is the body of Christ, it’s the followers in communion, right? it’s the real vine, with Christ being the cornerstone. He is the vine, we are the branches … how could I say I that a branch or a leaf is with the vine if it looks different from the rest of the vine? How could I say
that I am with Christ, if I am not in union with the followers? Did Christ form two different Churches? And, what happens to the herd if the sheep aren’t in union? How could the shephered tend the flock if they aren’t one?

Yep, to know how to fix it, we need to know what caused it in the first place. It’s also good to know the Church’s history, it’s foundations … A quick question, who found the Catholic Church? When did it all start? Does it have diversity in doctrines? Is there a dispute right in the Catholic Church about the major issues of faith, etc. And, you will find that there is no reason to worry about diversity.

(Again I ask, what exactly made you to seperate, Kendy)

God Bless

I was not admitting to being seperated froom the body. I was just quoting what someone else said to me. As for as how can I say I am a follower of Christ if I am not in communion with other followers. Well, the same way you can since over half of all professed believers are not catholic. Although I disagree with you that the leaves are that different. I think there was similarities in the leaves.

Who founded the catholic church? I think the catholic church as it today developed over the course of many years. I think when the Roman Empire became catholic, the church had evolved from the faith of poor and enslaved that it started to a powerful institution which was occasionally co-opted by the powers that be. I believe that during this time, the catholic church nurtured the gospel, but I believe that there was also a lot of corruption and that the church did not always reflect the light of Christ as it should have. For hundreds of years before the reformation, the church persecuted dissenters. The reformation was the movement it could not quelch. I also believe (as I prepare myself for the attacks that will not befall me) that God nurtured the reformation. Why would go cause division in the body? Because it was necessary to pull the church from its corruption and hunger for power. The reformation forced the catholic church to examine itself, changed the course of Christianity, and provided Christians with a story of a personal God— something that the RCC seemed to have forgotten and seems to forget even now. This is not to say that nothing bad happened as a result, but only that God has used this for his glory. Just tonight I was watching a listening to the story about a woman who left the catholic church to join an evangelical church and came back to the RCC. And she talked about how she had to leave the RCC to realize that God is real, not just some distant super power who records your sins. And I have heard that story so often.

There are many great things about RCC. Recently, I have been interested in gender and the church, and I read John Paul writings on the matter. Out of everything I had read, and I had read much by evangelicals on this, it was the most intellectually and theological satisfying work I had read on the matter. The catholic church is very good at this type of thing, but they are not so good at communicating the heart of the gospel— that God loves you, that He gave His only begotten Son for You, and that He wants to redeem you and have fellowship with you.

I realize now that that is what the church “believes,” but I have obseved that it gets lost in the midst of all the rituals. Evangelicals shout this from the roof tops. If you get nothing else out of evangelical church, you will not get away without having heard that God loves you. And I think God very much wants to have that message preached and has blessed those who have committed themselves to doing it.

So, why did I leave the church? While in the church, I was being told to say three “Hails Marys” before bed and I didn’t know why and I didn’t care. But when I heard that they were people who were talking about the love God and the Joy of the Spirit, I got interested.

Kendy

Prayers

 

[Redbandito]

Kendy:

By the way, it’s sister, and I am sorry for attacking you. I was frustrated because I couldn’t figure out the difference between what I said and what you were saying.

It’s cool, Sister! I was not really offended. I was more surprised at how strongly you came on. Once again, I am glad you agree with the Church’s position on justification. I just wanted to point out that while some of the differences are small, they are still differences. And it is my belief that those “walls” have been intentionally put up to separate from the teaching authority of the Church. IF that truly is the case, would you believe that is God’s will?

Kendy:

You are right that justification was one of the major points of the disagreement, but I believe that the Lutheran Church and the Catholic Church signed an agreement on this some years ago. And it seemed that the Catholic Church conceded a lot more. In fact, the Wall Street Journal wrote an article saying that the Lutherans won. So, I am not sure that this has always been the church’s position.

I am sorry, but you heard wrong. The Catholic position remained unchanged in this area. If I were you, I might not be so quick to trust the Wall Street Journal to be the arbiter of these highly theological debates. You would probably be more qualified to judge that than the majority of newpaper journalists. Always keep in mind the source. I recommend a book for you. Try reading “The Salvation Controversy” by James Akin. It’s short, sweet and to the point. He also touches on this issue briefly, and you will actually get some quotations from him rather than just speculation.

Kendy:

As for the baptists that you have talked to I can’t argue with your experience. However, the only two catholics I currently know outside of family members do not believe that homosexuality is a sin. Ans when I was getting confirmed, the catholic priest teaching me said that sexuality (including homosexuality) is a gift from God. Yet, I know that is not the RCC’s position.

Likewise, that some evangelicals don’t agree with this does not mean that it is not the official position of their denomination. I can’t really speak for non-denominational churches since there are thousands of them, and each of them are independent. However, major protestant churches agree with this including important leaders and theologians. I attended a Southern Baptist church for many years and this was the message that was preached.

This is apples and oranges. There is a huge distinction that you are failing to realize. While Catholics fall into heresy when they depart from the OFFICIAL teaching of the Church, Baptists have no such thing. The Southern Baptist Convention is non-binding. Baptist churches are autonomous meaning that there is no “official position of their denomination”. It’s just like you said abot non-denominational churches. Baptists will usually hold to a strict “Faith Alone” and “Once Saved, Always Saved” position. However, this is not binding on them. What you will find is that this is the case for all other denominations as well. Even amongst Lutherans and Anglicans, there is nothing absolutely binding about faith and morals other than what the Bible teaches. The problem is that since none of them have a centralized teaching authority to teach what that is, it becomes what each pastor’s interpretation of Scripture is that is “binding”. That varies from church to church. Hence, the 33,000+ Protestant denominations.

It is possible that you attended one of the very few exceptions to this rule. However, the rule as I stated earlier is that while being obedient is important, and can help store treasures in Heaven, once you have made your altar call, you cannot lose your salvation. I am glad you disagree with this position, because it is clearly false. However, if there is an official position for Baptist churches, this is as close as you will come to it.

 

[Redbandito]

Kendy:

As for my being seperated from Christ’s church, I must say I am not at all seperated from Christ, who is the Lord of my life. I am however interested in unity in the body of believers so I am always glad to discover that we can agree on important aspects of our faith. But my hope that we could all being in Him extends far beyond my membership to the RCC. I think many devout catholics have a vision of protestants running back to the RCC someday in sorrowful repetence, which is not only unrealistic and a little insulting. For those of us who experienced Christ’s love and redemption and have been ministered by scripture and the Spirit outside the RCC, it’s little weird to be told this. I think there can be more hope for unity if all of us (catholics, and crazy southern baptist included) could adopt a more humble attitude.

I didn’t say you were separated from Christ. I do believe that you honestly seek Him and love Him from the things that you say. However, you are separated from the fullness of the treasure room that he left for you. You seem to understand a great deal about the truth that God has delivered once and for all. However, the FULLNESS of truth resides only in the Catholic Church upon which Christ established on Peter. The sacraments reside ONLY in the Catholic Church (especially the Eucharist). You want to talk about intimacy with Christ? How about Jesus turning bread into Himself so that he may dwell in us BODY AND BLOOD, soul and divinity. Not just spiritually, but physically! That is marital intimacy Sister! It’s awesome! Point being is that I strive never to be satisfied with my relationship with Jesus as is. Until I am capable of loving Him perfectly, there is work to be done. Whatever He can give me to help love Him better, I want it. I assume you would do the same. Maybe that is why God brought you to this website.

Kendy:

One that says:

We know that He wants us to be one. Our willful and sinful attitudes have prevented this from happening. How can we prayerful make this happen? How can we build on those things that already agree on? How can we search our hearts to determine the ways that we hinder this? What can we surrender for the sake of unity. Does the catholic really need to hold on to their view of the Virgin Mary? perhaps, but it can’t hurt to study and pray about it. Do evangelicals really need to insist on their views on revelation? Maybe, but I think it’s worth visiting this point of disagreement. I am not talking about compromising God’s word. I am talking about looking to scripture and the Holy Spirit to determine how we can make obey Jesus’s call to unity.

And more importantly, none of this can be achieved in a Spirit of arrogance, and there’s plenty of it on both sides. Rather we must recognize that the Holy Spirit has been gracious enough to glorify God in our lives despite the fact that we have disobeyed Jesus’s call to unified.

Now, of course, I realize I am the one is unrealistic.

In Him,
Kendy

Point well taken. I agree that the truth should be preached in charity. God is truth, but God is also love. So, when I depart from love, I have departed from both God and truth. There is no question that arrogance will get us nowhere. However, I don’t believe it is arrogant to hold fast to the “traditions that were delivered to us whether by word of mouth or by letter”. I don’t believe it is arrogant to submit my will to “the Church of the living God, which is the PILLAR AND FOUNDATION of TRUTH”. While Catholics need to live their faith more and need to attempt to see our separated Brethren as just that, Brethren, I don’t believe we should forsake truth for the sake of unity. In fact, that would have the opposite effect. Unity comes through truth. If we are honest and humble and lay aside the prejudices of the past, I do believe we can achieve unity. However, this will only came from worshipping Jesus in “SPIRIT and TRUTH”. It is time for us to take a look at what the original Church was. How did the disciples of the Apostles understand the teaching delivered to them? I believe what we will find is that it is much what the Catholic Church is today. Are we really willing to follow Jesus WHEREVER he takes us, even if that means making my home in Rome?

 

[Redbandito]

Kendy:

Who founded the catholic church? I think the catholic church as it today developed over the course of many years. I think when the Roman Empire became catholic, the church had evolved from the faith of poor and enslaved that it started to a powerful institution which was occasionally co-opted by the powers that be. I believe that during this time, the catholic church nurtured the gospel, but I believe that there was also a lot of corruption and that the church did not always reflect the light of Christ as it should have. For hundreds of years before the reformation, the church persecuted dissenters. The reformation was the movement it could not quelch. I also believe (as I prepare myself for the attacks that will not befall me) that God nurtured the reformation. Why would go cause division in the body? Because it was necessary to pull the church from its corruption and hunger for power. The reformation forced the catholic church to examine itself, changed the course of Christianity, and provided Christians with a story of a personal God— something that the RCC seemed to have forgotten and seems to forget even now. This is not to say that nothing bad happened as a result, but only that God has used this for his glory. Just tonight I was watching a listening to the story about a woman who left the catholic church to join an evangelical church and came back to the RCC. And she talked about how she had to leave the RCC to realize that God is real, not just some distant super power who records your sins. And I have heard that story so often.
Kendy

That’s not historically accurate, but that’s for another thread. Maybe you should do some more research. I don’t mean that in a condescending way, but seriously the primary sources from history are readily available. Try reading Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Ireneaus, Origen, Tertullian, Polycarp, etc. See if these 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century writers would agree with your explanation of history.

Kendy:

There are many great things about RCC. Recently, I have been interested in gender and the church, and I read John Paul writings on the matter. Out of everything I had read, and I had read much by evangelicals on this, it was the most intellectually and theological satisfying work I had read on the matter. The catholic church is very good at this type of thing, but they are not so good at communicating the heart of the gospel— that God loves you, that He gave His only begotten Son for You, and that He wants to redeem you and have fellowship with you.

The Church is great over these matters. I agree. However, if you don’t believe the Church is good at communicating the heart of the gospel, you didn’t know the Church as well as you thought you did. You don’t think Mother Theresa communicated the heart of the gospel? You don’t think JPII communicated that God loves us and wants to redeem us? Man, you must not have been listening. The very fact that the Church celebrates the Mass daily should speak this to you.

Kendy:

I realize now that that is what the church “believes,” but I have obseved that it gets lost in the midst of all the rituals. Evangelicals shout this from the roof tops. If you get nothing else out of evangelical church, you will not get away without having heard that God loves you. And I think God very much wants to have that message preached and has blessed those who have committed themselves to doing it.

Well, that might be your experience, but it hasn’t been mine. The Catholics that I know that actually live their faith, preach and live this message every bit as much if not more than any Evangelical I have ever met. That isn’t to say that those Evangelicals aren’t living it, but Catholics have the grace of the sacraments. Also, the Church does not have ritual for the sake of ritual. Those rituals all have meaning. The more you understand them, the more it draws you into the captivating mysteries of Jesus and His Mass. I do know that some people go through the motions, but it doesn’t have to be this way.

Kendy:

So, why did I leave the church? While in the church, I was being told to say three “Hails Marys” before bed and I didn’t know why and I didn’t care. But when I heard that they were people who were talking about the love God and the Joy of the Spirit, I got interested.

I’m so sad to hear that this was your experience. The unfortunate thing about it is that you could have gotten that very thing right here within the Catholic Church. Maybe you weren’t looking hard enough? God Bless!

 

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

This is apples and oranges. There is a huge distinction that you are failing to realize. While Catholics fall into heresy when they depart from the OFFICIAL teaching of the Church, Baptists have no such thing. The Southern Baptist Convention is non-binding. Baptist churches are autonomous meaning that there is no “official position of their denomination”. It’s just like you said abot non-denominational churches. Baptists will usually hold to a strict “Faith Alone” and “Once Saved, Always Saved” position. However, this is not binding on them. What you will find is that this is the case for all other denominations as well. Even amongst Lutherans and Anglicans, there is nothing absolutely binding about faith and morals other than what the Bible teaches. The problem is that since none of them have a centralized teaching authority to teach what that is, it becomes what each pastor’s interpretation of Scripture is that is “binding”. That varies from church to church. Hence, the 33,000+ Protestant denominations.

Well, before we get too excited about our points of agreement, I never said that I don’t believe in eternal security. It’s one of the things that I most treasure. I am humbled by God’s faithfulness. You said, that you think this is inconsistent. Well, I will tell you why I think it’s not and then you can tell me you disagree.

First of all, I really think there’s a lot going on with language. First, evangelicals like to make the gospel simple because they believe that that is what Jesus would have wanted. They believe that getting too caught up in dogma confuses people, and when I think of my illiterate grandmother who didn’t understand much but that Jesus loves her, I see their point.

Anywho, because I am sensitive to the division it has cause in the body, I am now more careful to say that you are saved by grace through faith unto good works. However, there was a time when I would simply said by faith. This is not a change in my position, but a change in my language to avoid causing unnecessary strife. What catholics don’t realize is that when protestants say you are saved by faith, they don’t mean continue in sin so that grace may abound. However, protestant fear that catholics believe that God is sitting up in heaven thinking if Suzie does one more hour of volunteer work she will make the cut, and so they like to shout by “faith alone” they want to assure that people understand that you cannot merit God’s grace. However, if the connection between faith and works is always present in every Sunday sermon. If I say I believe it is cold outside, but I walk out in shortd. Assuming that you think I am sane, you will question whether I believe.

So, protestant believe that everyone who has a genuine born again experience by submitting through the Lordship of Christ is eternal saved, but we also believe that not everyone who calls Him Lord is one of his. Perhaps, the difference is that protestant don’t think you can ever be sure of who is genuinely saved. If you tell me that you believe in Him, we will baptise you, but whether you are honest, only God can judge.

Anyway, we believe that if you make a genuine confession of afith, that you invite the Holy Spirit in your life to transform you and God is faithful to help in your Christian walk. However, He will never turn his back on you.

As for no binding authority. I think protestant churches have too little ways to enforce getting rid of heretics. However, most major protestants churches (Southern Baptists included) have a statement of faith, and the ministers have to sign it. I had to read and say that I agree with the vineyard’s statement of faith before I could become an official member.

 

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

Point well taken. I agree that the truth should be preached in charity. God is truth, but God is also love. So, when I depart from love, I have departed from both God and truth. There is no question that arrogance will get us nowhere. However, I don’t believe it is arrogant to hold fast to the “traditions that were delivered to us whether by word of mouth or by letter”. I don’t believe it is arrogant to submit my will to “the Church of the living God, which is the PILLAR AND FOUNDATION of TRUTH”. While Catholics need to live their faith more and need to attempt to see our separated Brethren as just that, Brethren, I don’t believe we should forsake truth for the sake of unity. In fact, that would have the opposite effect. Unity comes through truth. If we are honest and humble and lay aside the prejudices of the past, I do believe we can achieve unity. However, this will only came from worshipping Jesus in “SPIRIT and TRUTH”. It is time for us to take a look at what the original Church was. How did the disciples of the Apostles understand the teaching delivered to them? I believe what we will find is that it is much what the Catholic Church is today. Are we really willing to follow Jesus WHEREVER he takes us, even if that means making my home in Rome?

You guys are the most evangelizing people I have ever met. Of course, I am willing to go ever Jesus leads me. But you must realize that more people join protestants denomination every year than the RCC. Pentecostals are the fastest growing religious groups in the world. So, one person coming back to Rome is less important than believers prayerful trying to understand ecah other so that we can be one.

And yes, we must never compromise truth.

Kendy

 

[Redbandito]

Kendy:

You guys are the most evangelizing people I have ever met. Of course, I am willing to go ever Jesus leads me. But you must realize that more people join protestants denomination every year than the RCC. Pentecostals are the fastest growing religious groups in the world. So, one person coming back to Rome is less important than believers prayerful trying to understand ecah other so that we can be one.

And yes, we must never compromise truth.

Kendy

That’s actually not true. Statistically speaking, there are more people that come into the Catholic Church every year than any other denomination. Pentecostals have a greater percentage, but when your church is a billion wide, it is hard to compete.

 

[Redbandito]

Kendy:

Well, before we get too excited about our points of agreement, I never said that I don’t believe in eternal security. It’s one of the things that I most treasure. I am humbled by God’s faithfulness. You said, that you think this is inconsistent. Well, I will tell you why I think it’s not and then you can tell me you disagree.

First of all, I really think there’s a lot going on with language. First, evangelicals like to make the gospel simple because they believe that that is what Jesus would have wanted. They believe that getting too caught up in dogma confuses people, and when I think of my illiterate grandmother who didn’t understand much but that Jesus loves her, I see their point.

Perhaps, the difference is that protestant don’t think you can ever be sure of who is genuinely saved. If you tell me that you believe in Him, we will baptise you, but whether you are honest, only God can judge.

I want to preface this by saying I respect your honesty. However, this is exactly why I disagree with you. You say you believe in “eternal security” or an assurance of salvation on the one hand and on the other hand you say, “**protestant don’t think you can ever be sure of who is genuinely saved”. **How is this not a contradiction? How is this consistent? That doesn’t seem to be much of an assurance to me. Please explain.

Secondly, dogma leads to depth of faith. For instance, do you believe someone who didn’t understand the “dogma” of the Trinity or the “dogma” of the Incarnation could ever possibly know God as well as someone who seeks God in the knowledge of who he truly is? Of course not! We get substance through form. Form must be directed toward the personal. Thus, while I hear your fear, I don’t think you need to.

Thanks for your response. God’s blessings.

 

[jpete79]

Redbandito:

I want to preface this by saying I respect your honesty. However, this is exactly why I disagree with you. You say you believe in “eternal security” or an assurance of salvation on the one hand and on the other hand you say, “**protestant don’t think you can ever be sure of who is genuinely saved”. **How is this not a contradiction? How is this consistent? That doesn’t seem to be much of an assurance to me. Please explain.

Secondly, dogma leads to depth of faith. For instance, do you believe someone who didn’t understand the “dogma” of the Trinity or the “dogma” of the Incarnation could ever possibly know God as well as someone who seeks God in the knowledge of who he truly is? Of course not! We get substance through form. Form must be directed toward the personal. Thus, while I hear your fear, I don’t think you need to.

Thanks for your response. God’s blessings.

Assurance of salvation doesn’t mean we know who will be saved and who won’t. It means we know our personal eternity lies in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. Why? Because we put our life in His hands.

 

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

That’s actually not true. Statistically speaking, there are more people that come into the Catholic Church every year than any other denomination. Pentecostals have a greater percentage, but when your church is a billion wide, it is hard to compete.

Well, I was definitely speaking percentage wise. However, I have read several studies the “reformation coming to Latin America.” Go ahead and google it if you like. I am not saying it to make myself better. It’s just what I have read.

 

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

I want to preface this by saying I respect your honesty. However, this is exactly why I disagree with you. You say you believe in “eternal security” or an assurance of salvation on the one hand and on the other hand you say, “**protestant don’t think you can ever be sure of who is genuinely saved”. **How is this not a contradiction? How is this consistent? That doesn’t seem to be much of an assurance to me. Please explain.

Secondly, dogma leads to depth of faith. For instance, do you believe someone who didn’t understand the “dogma” of the Trinity or the “dogma” of the Incarnation could ever possibly know God as well as someone who seeks God in the knowledge of who he truly is? Of course not! We get substance through form. Form must be directed toward the personal. Thus, while I hear your fear, I don’t think you need to.

Thanks for your response. God’s blessings.

I see how I am not being clear. Allow me to clarify. I can not know if you are saved for sure because I can never be sure that you are not pretending to filled the Spirit for your personal gain . However, a saved person is eternally saved. Only God knows the heart of the individual. I can be assured of my own salvation because I know that I have made a genuine proclamation of faith, but I can only speak for myself. Let me know if that’s still not clear.

As for dogma, I do think it’s important, but it is more or less important at various times. The best thing in catholic priest ever did for me was say, “we don’t have to figure out everything tonight.” Had I known that I was going to have to give up premarital sex, I would have never answered the Holy Spirit’s call to repent. But because of what the priest said, I was freed to focus on God’s love for me and was able to accept His gift of repentence.

But it was not long after I had done that that the Holy Spirit began to nag me about the boyfriend that I was sleeping with. The more I tried to ignore it, the louder the nags became until I had to repent and leave that relationship. But I might have not come to Christ had the priest explained to me that I would have to break up with the really cute med student. In a way, I kinda feel like God tricked me a bit.

So, yes, dogma is important. However, if you run into someone with a drinking problem who has destroyed his family. You may want to start with “Jesus loves you” rather than “I offer the fullness of truth as can be proven by the historical records of the church fathers.” I have found that evangelicals and pentacostals understand this better than catholics.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

I want to preface this by saying I respect your honesty. However, this is exactly why I disagree with you. You say you believe in “eternal security” or an assurance of salvation on the one hand and on the other hand you say, “**protestant don’t think you can ever be sure of who is genuinely saved”. **How is this not a contradiction? How is this consistent? That doesn’t seem to be much of an assurance to me. Please explain.

Secondly, dogma leads to depth of faith. For instance, do you believe someone who didn’t understand the “dogma” of the Trinity or the “dogma” of the Incarnation could ever possibly know God as well as someone who seeks God in the knowledge of who he truly is? Of course not! We get substance through form. Form must be directed toward the personal. Thus, while I hear your fear, I don’t think you need to.

Thanks for your response. God’s blessings.

Redbandito,

I was wondering, “do you believe that if you died today you would go to heaven?” If the answer is yes, then that is all protestants mean by “blessed assurance” and we have another point of agreement. If you don’t, how does that make you feel? Is this something you worry about? Are you afraid of the possibility of going to hell?

Kendy

 

[jpete79]

Kendy:

I see how I am not being clear. Allow me to clarify. I can not know if you are saved for sure because I can never be sure that you are not pretending to filled the Spirit for your personal gain . However, a saved person is eternally saved. Only God knows the heart of the individual. I can be assured of my own salvation because I know that I have made a genuine proclamation of faith, but I can only speak for myself. Let me know if that’s still not clear.

As for dogma, I do think it’s important, but it is more or less important at various times. The best thing in catholic priest ever did for me was say, “we don’t have to figure out everything tonight.” Had I known that I was going to have to give up premarital sex, I would have never answered the Holy Spirit’s call to repent. But because of what the priest said, I was freed to focus on God’s love for me and was able to accept His gift of repentence.

But it was not long after I had done that that the Holy Spirit began to nag me about the boyfriend that I was sleeping with. The more I tried to ignore it, the louder the nags became until I had to repent and leave that relationship. But I might have not come to Christ had the priest explained to me that I would have to break up with the really cute med student. In a way, I kinda feel like God tricked me a bit.

So, yes, dogma is important. However, if you run into someone with a drinking problem who has destroyed his family. You may want to start with “Jesus loves you” rather than “I offer the fullness of truth as can be proven by the historical records of the church fathers.” I have found that evangelicals and pentacostals understand this better than catholics.

Kendy

Kendy:

I just want to say that is a great testimony. I have enjoyed reading about how God is moving in your life.

God Bless,
Jim

 

[Redbandito]

Kendy:

Redbandito,

I was wondering, “do you believe that if you died today you would go to heaven?” If the answer is yes, then that is all protestants mean by “blessed assurance” and we have another point of agreement. If you don’t, how does that make you feel? Is this something you worry about? Are you afraid of the possibility of going to hell?

Kendy

Do I believe this? In a sense, yes. But, in a sense, I am not certain. I believe I have prepared myself. I have received the sacrament of reconciliation. I have the blessed Eucharist dwelling in me. I do not have any unrepented mortal sins on my soul. So, I believe that I have done what I can to accept God’s grace in my life. However, I would never be so presumptuous as to say that I am 100% sure I am going to Heaven. Even with doing all that I have done, I must still rely on the mercy and grace of God.

I think the best example is this. I have a test tomorrow. I have been studying for weeks. I have eaten well and I am about to get a good night’s rest. In the morning I wake up and feel good about my preparation. I state, “I know I am going to ace this test!” Now, I may very well ace that test. However, the fact of the matter is, I might have missed a chapter. I might not have been as prepared as I thought I was. It is possible that I would not ace the test, despite the fact that I thought I had prepared myself well. Now, the majority, if not all of the people who are prepared for the test will do well. But, just because I have studied does not give me a metaphysical certainty that I will ace the test. Does that make sense? God alone sees my heart. Proverbs says, “The heart is wickedly deceitful above all things”. I might have even conned myself I was doing this all for Him. And I might be the one that Jesus talked about when He stated, “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of Heaven”. Get my point? Presumption upon God is a grave sin. Even to presume I am absolutely saved with no possibility for damnation is kicking God off of His judgement seat and replacing Him with myself.

 

[LSK]

NotWorthy:

OK, let’s hope I explain this right. We are saved by Faith alone. When we are baptized, we receive this Saving Grace from Christ, which washes away Original Sin and any sins we’ve committed (At this point, your evangelical friends think “it’s over”. Saving Grace is eternal because no one can take it away).

This Saving Grace is a gift freely given by Christ and there is nothing we can do to earn it. It’s given because of our faith.

Now here’s the rub. Although no one else can take this gift of eternal life away from us, we can choose to give it back, by turning away from God and sinning. That’s when we lose our state of Grace and need to regain it - The Sacrament of Penance and the Holy Eucharist will help restore us to Sanctifying Grace.

Where do works fit in? In Sanctifying Grace, they don’t - case closed. But with Actual Graces (the graces that come with going to Mass, doing Good Works, following Jesus commands, etc.) they are an integral part. Look at the Parable of the talents. The Talents the 3 men are given (notice they are freely given) are Sanctifying Grace. When those men take this grace and do good works, God’s gifts are returned with a profit (these are the prayers and the works that we offer up for God). But when the third man takes the Grace, and buries it in a hole (he doesn’t perform good works, go to Mass, etc.), he is not rewarded with eternal life.

Pretty simple, eh?

Notworthy

What a great explanation. May I simply say that I, myself, am

:bowdown:
not worthy…

 

[Kendy]

jpete79:

Kendy:

I just want to say that is a great testimony. I have enjoyed reading about how God is moving in your life.

God Bless,
Jim

Thank You, Jim.