Justification by Faith?

[desire_the_end]

Kendy:

So, if we can make it leave, and your logic here is quite solid, it would follow in order to go to heaven, we would have to reborn again?

Kendy

Call it whatever you’d like; one must not only desire the truth, but be willing to accept it. If one openly rejects God, how can he ever expect to be with him?
lovetony

 

[Kendy]

desire the end:

Call it whatever you’d like; one must not only desire the truth, but be willing to accept it. If one openly rejects God, how can he ever expect to be with him?
lovetony

I am making no attempt to reject God, but what is the point if regeneration can be undone and redone indefinitely?

Also, I have been thinking all afternoon, what is at stake here? And your comment brings it up again. Is rejecting God the issue that is at stake? What practical implications does this raise for us have for us as we seek to serve Him?

A sermon I heard a while ago told a story about Luther, which may highlight potential implications. Apparently, Luther use to spend hours in confession after he painstaking documented every sin. His confessor told him to stop coming to him with every little sin, but Luther was just obsessed with this. In addition, he would spend lots of times worrying about the sins he had not remembered and thus hadn’t confessed. In short, he was constantly afraid about his salvation. And then, or so this pastor said, Luther read some passage of Paul (don’t remember which one) about taking on his righteousness and the like. Well, apparently, this made him feel free to receive God’s grace instead of spending his nights in a cold sweats, and then the rest is history.

I think for me this could be one possible implication. I don’t go around trying to sin, but I also don’t worry about my salvation.

Kendy

 

[christaddict]

Kendy:

Of course, I struggle with sin. Being born again is the beginning of God’s grace not the end. While I was upset about this sin being in my life, I was never worried about going to Hell. Rather, I was worried about not living my Christian life to its fullest capacity by being weighted down by this sin. I also need to reconcile with God so that my prayer life and fellowship with the Spirit is not hindered. There are times when I come to the Lord in prayer, and I have a distinct sense of God saying, “I don’t want hear bout anything else until you deal sin your life.” And then sometimes, I am like fine, I am going to sleep, but eventually I come around because I miss being able to talk to God.

Also, there are two important lesson to take out of this. Before I was a believer, I considered this harmless pleasure, afterwards, it became a burden. Like I said, the Holy Spirit is a nag. Second, because I am born again I now have the desire to obey and can call upon God’s grace to help me do it. What I mean by I no longer desire to do this is just that. It no longer tempts. I am still tempted by other things but I have really been delivered from this.

But you are right that the Christian life is a process by which we learn to fully submit and obey. But there’s no magic point by which you can now go to heaven. Once you have been initiated in that process you are saved.

Kendy
Kendy

Well, I guess I should step aside for Redbandito. I’ll catch you later … Kendy, one thing I wanted to say during these days … I can relate to your love for the Lord and I really appreciate that … our goal is to get closer to Him … BTW I work in a protestant organisation, I’ve a colleague who is close to me, she is a Hindu convert and is now a christian, probably pentacostal protestant … she once said … “I know you are rough … and I don’t like such men, but I see you growing closer to the Lord” with wonder she asked, “where are you getting that?”(she meant the grace, and I could see that hunger to know that fullness of truth) … I just smiled … (oh yes you are free to think that I am boasting, that was a beautiful compliment, although I wondered how she could notice that and I still do). I said “Yes I am growing in faith … perhaps bad news to you”, I whispered, “Catholic faith” … she said “It doesn’t matter as long as we are closer to the Lord” And, I found that she is interested to know about catholicism, and I am always there to tell the beauty of “Where actually I receive that grace!” … (so much to talk about)

I just wanted to say, you are already catholic, you just don’t know that … however God has given you the free will to choose … accept it or reject it … love ya …

Merry Christmas and Blessed New Year to everyone … See you all after holidays!!!

 

[Kendy]

christaddict:

I just wanted to say, you are already catholic, you just don’t know that … however God has given you the free will to choose … accept it or reject it … love ya …

Merry Christmas and Blessed New Year to everyone … See you all after holidays!!!

Hehe…Love ya too.

Merry Christmas.

 

[Redbandito]

Kendy:

So does the Holy Spirit then dwell in everybody?

Only those who have believed and been baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Kendy:

Also, this creates a picture in my mind in which God pulls out a record book and weight the good against the bad. I imagine that that is not what you mean so I would like you to elaborate.

Not quite sure what you mean by that. I might need you to elaborate.

Kendy:

Earlier, I offered my own story of facing God, and essentially said, when I am judged, I will say, I plead the cross. What would you say?

Kendy

I would say that this scenario will not occur, so what is the point in playing it out? God’s not going to show me my sins and then say, “What do you have to say for yourself, Son?”

 

[Redbandito]

Kendy:

So, if we can make it leave, and your logic here is quite solid, it would follow in order to go to heaven, we would have to reborn again?

Kendy

Think of it this way Kendy. When we are “born again”, or “born from above” to be more precise, we are adopted into God’s family. Once, I am adopted, I am part of that family. Now, I can disown my Father. I can walk away from him and squander all of my inheritance. However, should I repent and ask for forgiveness, my father would not have to legally re-adopt me. He would have to forgive me, which any loving father would do, but that would still be dependent on my repentance. Again, this would not require me to be re-adopted (or reborn). Does this make it a little more clear?

 

[Redbandito]

desire the end:

Jim, Amen.

But here’s a question to wpm, redbandito, kendy, and yourself:
You’ve quoted passages both for, and against OSAS, yet all I’m hearing is, “choose one or the other.” Certainly, it can be both!

The phrase “once saved always saved” has implications of its own. It’s a tautology, if I’m not mistaken. It is logical and quite Biblical. After all, if you’re saved, what more evidence do you need to come to knowledge of your salvation? You’re saved!

However many Protestants use this as a slogan for some sort of doctrine (for lack of a more appropriate word) that says “once you accept Jesus into your heart” (whatever that means) “…you are saved!” But if this is true at all (no matter what extra terminology or doctrinal physiology you add to this OSAS business), then we must concede that being “born again” or “submitting in obedience to our Lord God” is an act of free will.

It seems to me that we forget that the Holy Spirit was given to us due to our Holy Brother Jesus’ assumption to heaven. And if an act of free will actualizes the Holy Spirit to dwell within us, surely we can make it leave, though with much difficulty, with that same will power.

In Grace,
Tony

P.S. I’d like to echo my previous post: this thread/topic is scrumtulescent.

Don’t mean to be picky, but Jesus ascended, Mary was assumed. Other than that, I don’t necessarily understand where you are going with this post. Sorry, maybe I missed something.

 

[Redbandito]

Kendy:

I am making no attempt to reject God, but what is the point if regeneration can be undone and redone indefinitely

I don’t think he was saying that you are. This is not personal to you. This is a general doctrinal question. And as for what is the point of regeneration if we can undo it redo indefinitely, I don’t think you’re understanding what is being said here. I suggest going back through this thread again. If you read through the thread, I believe you will find this question has already been answered.

Kendy:

Also, I have been thinking all afternoon, what is at stake here? And your comment brings it up again. Is rejecting God the issue that is at stake? What practical implications does this raise for us have for us as we seek to serve Him?

Yes, it is. And any sin, by definition, is a conscious rejection of Him. However 1 John 5:16 states, “16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death” (NIV). If the Scripture teaches here that certain sin can lead to my spiritual “death”, it seems that the argument that we cannot reject God through our own sin is not very strongly supported.

Kendy:

A sermon I heard a while ago told a story about Luther, which may highlight potential implications. Apparently, Luther use to spend hours in confession after he painstaking documented every sin. His confessor told him to stop coming to him with every little sin, but Luther was just obsessed with this. In addition, he would spend lots of times worrying about the sins he had not remembered and thus hadn’t confessed. In short, he was constantly afraid about his salvation. And then, or so this pastor said, Luther read some passage of Paul (don’t remember which one) about taking on his righteousness and the like. Well, apparently, this made him feel free to receive God’s grace instead of spending his nights in a cold sweats, and then the rest is history.

I think for me this could be one possible implication. I don’t go around trying to sin, but I also don’t worry about my salvation.

Kendy

This is what the Church calls scrupulosity. This simply comes from a mis-application of the teaching. It focuses solely on God as just and not at all on Him as a mericiful Father. I don’t see this as a problem with confession or penance, but rather an individual character defect. We all have them.

 

[Redbandito]

Kendy:

So does the Holy Spirit then dwell in everybody?

I think we need to clear something up about this. I think some of us are picturing the Holy Spirit “dwelling in us” as a spatial or physical reality. I don’t believe that is totally accurate. Spiritual beings such as the Holy Spirit do not occupy space as a corporeal being would. Rather, God is where He acts. Thus, when we are in a state of SANCTIFYING grace (which only comes from being born from above), the Holy Spirit indwells in us in that He is constantly working on our souls to reform them. When we fall from a state of grace, we lose that sanctifying grace. However, the Holy Spirit is still actively giving us actual grace. Thus, He has not completely departed from our midst, but rather we have basically disabled Him from acting in our lives by means of sanctifying grace. Does that make sense?.

Furthermore, to continue the analogy that we get from the parable of the prodigal son, we see the father make this statement in verse 32, “because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.” The son was dead and is alive again. Now, this does not mean that the son was “reborn”. For the son was restored to what he was before his fall. He was not made into a baby again, but rather was restored to his previous state. So, rather than using the word “reborn”, the better word would be “resurrected”. Maybe this will clear some of the confusion up for you.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I’ve been following this thread for a couple of days, and I think everyone is doing a good job presenting their beliefs charitably. It’s nice to read. I want to comment on something Kendy wrote yesterday.

Kendy:

Well, there is a slight diiference between being assured of one’s salvation and never being able to lose one’s salvation. The first is being in Christ, if I die tonight will I go heaven, and the second is whether that will always be the case and can that ever change. It seems to me that they might be two seperate issues.

Kendy, I agree that they are separate issues. I think you are so very, very close to the Catholic teachings on this post. Catholics (or any baptized Christians for that matter) who die in a state of grace can be assured of their salvation, (but Catholics believe some need a bit of clean up before entering heaven.) We also believe that God will give us adequate grace for us to get to heaven. (I heard this on a tape by Fr. Corapi–he’s a fabulous preacher; if you get a chance to hear him it’s well worth your time.) God can be trusted to fulfill His promise! The one who can’t be trusted is me; if I land up in hell I have only myself to blame.

As jpete79 reminded us nothing can separate me from the Father’s love; but I believe I can reject His love. I pray I never do that, but I don’t trust myself enough to say that I won’t. So I can honestly say that I believe that had I died a minute ago, I would be assured of heaven (as I don’t know of any unrepented mortal sin on my soul.) But if I were to die later today or a year or twenty years from now, while I hope for heaven, I can not say for certain that where I’d go. So Catholic prayers include requests for grace at the hour of our death, because it takes grace from God to accept the wonderful gift of salvation that He offers us in Christ Jesus. And I believe I need every bit of that grace up until the end of my life.

 

[Redbandito]

gardenswithkids:

I’ve been following this thread for a couple of days, and I think everyone is doing a good job presenting their beliefs charitably. It’s nice to read. I want to comment on something Kendy wrote yesterday.

Kendy, I agree that they are separate issues. I think you are so very, very close to the Catholic teachings on this post. Catholics (or any baptized Christians for that matter) who die in a state of grace can be assured of their salvation, (but Catholics believe some need a bit of clean up before entering heaven.) We also believe that God will give us adequate grace for us to get to heaven. (I heard this on a tape by Fr. Corapi–he’s a fabulous preacher; if you get a chance to hear him it’s well worth your time.) God can be trusted to fulfill His promise! The one who can’t be trusted is me; if I land up in hell I have only myself to blame.

As jpete79 reminded us nothing can separate me from the Father’s love; but I believe I can reject His love. I pray I never do that, but I don’t trust myself enough to say that I won’t. So I can honestly say that I believe that had I died a minute ago, I would be assured of heaven (as I don’t know of any unrepented mortal sin on my soul.) But if I were to die later today or a year or twenty years from now, while I hope for heaven, I can not say for certain that where I’d go. So Catholic prayers include requests for grace at the hour of our death, because it takes grace from God to accept the wonderful gift of salvation that He offers us in Christ Jesus. And I believe I need every bit of that grace up until the end of my life.

Good post Garden! The only thing I would add is that we cannot separate the issues of OSAS from an “ABSOLUTE” assurance of salvation. The former naturally springs from the latter. That has been my point all along.

 

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

Think of it this way Kendy. When we are “born again”, or “born from above” to be more precise, we are adopted into God’s family. Once, I am adopted, I am part of that family. Now, I can disown my Father. I can walk away from him and squander all of my inheritance. However, should I repent and ask for forgiveness, my father would not have to legally re-adopt me. He would have to forgive me, which any loving father would do, but that would still be dependent on my repentance. Again, this would not require me to be re-adopted (or reborn). Does this make it a little more clear?

Yes.

 

[Redbandito]

jpete79:

I’ll tell you a story and its a long one and I hope you’ll read it.

I was born and raised in the Catholic Church. I received all the Sacraments straight through Confirmation but in the time that I was going through this my mother converted to Protestantism. It was this conversion that kept my family together as my parents were on the verge of divorce.

Now, after 8th Grade when I was Confirmed, my best friend invited me to his local Church’s Youth Group. I began to go and to believe in this man named Jesus Christ. See that was the difference to start. It was that Jesus Christ was a real man and is a real man today that we need to trust. It was about a year or two later that I said, I wanted Him as Savior.

Even though I said that Christ was Savior, I did not totally get rid of my worldly ways. This was when I was about 18 now and I continually strived for popularity. I was involved with heavy drinking, partying, etc in high-school.

After I left for college my strivings continued. I began to ignore classes altogether and smoke and drink with my fraternity brothers. I failed out and came home where my drug habit became worse while working in a bar/restaurant.

Now one may say that through this I lost my Salvation but I don’t believe that to be true. I’ll tell you why.

Even though, I continued on in worldly ways, I began realizing that worldly ways weren’t for me. That is not what was meant for me. Little by little I took things out of my life, first I started with heavy drugs, then smoking, then alcohol. It took many years for these things to be purged from me but little by little I was rid of them.

This happened about 4 years ago where I was rid of many of my habits. Were they disobedient to God? Yes! Does it mean that I wasn’t saved? No! Because through it all the Spirit was helping rid me of those problems.

After 9/11 and after a friend committed suicide, I began to take my faith even one more step as I began to realize that it wasn’t about me. Yes, God wanted a relationship with me but He also wanted a relationship with others. Because of that realization (especially after seeing tragedy more than once), I took the next step to head into Missions in Muslim Nations.

Long story short, when I was 16 I said yes to the need for a Savior. When I was 22 I was broken to the point where I wanted others to see this need as well. However, the seed was planted at 16 and God never let go.

That’s why John 10 is my favorite Chapter about Christ never letting anything pluck us from His hands and why Romans 8 is my favorite Chapter about how nothing will ever separate us from the Father’s Love. Through my life, I should have been separated but He continually brought me back. His Spirit has been working and will continue to work within me.

God Bless,
Jim

That’s a great testimony Jim! Well, other than the part where you left the Church. Anyway, I am sad to hear that you felt you had to leave the Church in order “to go to believe in a man named Jesus”. Surprisingly, that’s what we Catholics are offering. Unfortunately, some of the Catechesis early on has not been very solid of late, so we have a lot of misinformed Catholics out there. That’s okay. That’s why we have websites like this. If nothing else Jim, I am glad you love Jesus. Hopefully, in hangin out here and discussing Catholicism you will come to know Him even better. God’s blesings!

 

[jpete79]

Kendy:

Jim,

I don’t think it’s cute for you to steal my story. (J/K)

Kendy,

So you are the person I was plaguerizing from when I went to writeatestimony.com. It’s quite ironic that the one website I posted it on is the one you post on. lol.

Anyways, my bad; and I won’t let it happen again.

 

[desire_the_end]

Kendy:

I am making no attempt to reject God, but what is the point if regeneration can be undone and redone indefinitely?

Must there always be a point? You’re saying someone who was once a man of faith can never turn away from God for the rest of his life? This contrary to a lot of scripture, and free will.

Redbandito has made a pertinent analogy.

Redbandito:

Don’t mean to be picky, but Jesus ascended, Mary was assumed. Other than that, I don’t necessarily understand where you are going with this post. Sorry, maybe I missed something.

My mistake. Gotta love those typos.

 

[jpete79]

I am just wondering what it takes to lose Salvation if it indeed can be lost? I know Catholics believe in mortal sins; are these sins that if go unforgiven will cause a man to lose his Salvation?

Another thing I wonder…this was in the article I read and was wondering what you would say on it.

Do you think if Judas died right after becoming a disciple, he would have gone to Heaven or Hell?

Do you think Peter would have gone to Heaven or Hell after he denied Christ 3 times?

There are many other examples such as John asking Christ to strike down those who wanted to come to him, Zecchaus the tax-collector, etc. Please let me know your response.

 

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

I would say that this scenario will not occur, so what is the point in playing it out? God’s not going to show me my sins and then say, “What do you have to say for yourself, Son?”

Yes, it is an imagined scenerio. However, I think it could be a useful excercise because it defines very clearly what is at stake in redemption. And it forces you to determine how you, a sinful human being, can be reconciled to a Holy God. This is why being convicted of our sins and confessing that you are a sinner is such an important part of protestant theology. We don’t believe that you can have any meaningful conversion until you recognize that you stand convicted before God. It’s when you realize that you owe a debt that you simply cannot repay to God, no matter how many hours you spend at the soup kitchen that Jesus’s work has any relevance. It is then that you must say, “I plead the cross.”

Now, I think I have said earlier, in great detail, that pleading the cross doesn’t work if you want to use Jesus as personal fire protection. I won’t go over that again, other than to say that Jesus might respond, “I don’t know what she’s talking about. I never knew that girl.”

Kendy

 

[Redbandito]

Kendy:

Yes, it is an imagined scenerio. However, I think it could be a useful excercise because it defines very clearly what is at stake in redemption. And it forces you to determine how you, a sinful human being, can be reconciled to a Holy God. This is why being convicted of our sins and confessing that you are a sinner is such an important part of protestant theology. We don’t believe that you can have any meaningful conversion until you recognize that you stand convicted before God. It’s when you realize that you owe a debt that you simply cannot repay to God, no matter how many hours you spend at the soup kitchen that Jesus’s work has any relevance. It is then that you must say, “I plead the cross.”

Now, I think I have said earlier, in great detail, that pleading the cross doesn’t work if you want to use Jesus as personal fire protection. I won’t go over that again, other than to say that Jesus might respond, “I don’t know what she’s talking about. I never knew that girl.”

Kendy

Well I can say this. I agree that there is only one who can reconcile us to the Father. That is Jesus. Does that help?

 

[Redbandito]

jpete79:

I am just wondering what it takes to lose Salvation if it indeed can be lost? I know Catholics believe in mortal sins; are these sins that if go unforgiven will cause a man to lose his Salvation?

Another thing I wonder…this was in the article I read and was wondering what you would say on it.

Do you think if Judas died right after becoming a disciple, he would have gone to Heaven or Hell?

Do you think Peter would have gone to Heaven or Hell after he denied Christ 3 times?

There are many other examples such as John asking Christ to strike down those who wanted to come to him, Zecchaus the tax-collector, etc. Please let me know your response.

Jim, those are very valid questions. For starters, a person that dies in unrepentant mortal sin has willfully rejected God, and we believe would have chosen damnation. However, committing mortal sin (1 John 5:16) is threefold. First, it must be over grave matter. Second, I must be fully conscious that what I am doing is gravely wrong. Third, I must freely and willfully choose to do it anyway, consciously rejecting the grace of God in the process. Thus, while things may be materially mortal (over grave matter), we cannot speak as to whether a person was aware and freely chose to do wrong in any instance. God alone can judge that. Thus, for me to presume to speak for the destination of Peter or Judas would go against the very theology we are speaking of. I can say that if God looked at their hearts and saw that these actions met all three criterion for mortal sin, then it is likely that they would be damned if they died in that state.

 

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

Well I can say this. I agree that there is only one who can reconcile us to the Father. That is Jesus. Does that help?

Sure. I can’t really remember why I was asking to begin with . My pleading the cross might be more reflective of my prostestant nurturing, which affects my “language.” But evangelicals like to use this in their missionary work because most people will respond, well, I would say I am a good person and I have lived a good life, and then the evangelist can say, wrong answer.

Kendy