Justification by Faith?

[jpete79]

Redbandito:

Game, Set and Match. I agree with everything in your post. You made my argument for me . Thank you. Seriously, this is the whole point I have been making all along. We can’t know for certain. Thus, that is not an absolute “assurance”.

The fact is, I also believe in assurance of salvation from the verses that were presented. Mainly I think John 10 presents the strongest argument for assurance of salvation than any of the verses that are presented against it.

I have no doubt in my heart of who the King of kings and the Lord of lords is. I have no doubt that Jesus Christ came, died, was buried and rose again on the third day. That he died for my sins and was reborn so that my relationship (and any other who submits to Him) can be restored in Him. The shackles of sin and the barriers of death have been broken due to his love for us. Upon acceptance of Him those shackles are destroyed, the prison cell of sin abandoned. Once we see the freedom that awaits, the eternity that is there; I believe (as was put in John) that nothing can take it away. Read Romans Chapter 8 on what Paul thought about separating us from the Father’s Love.

I cannot be certain that my belief on once saved always saved is right. I can be certain that my heart lies with Jesus Christ as my authority and as long as that is the case that my Salvation is in Heaven as it has been promised.

 

[Redbandito]

Kendy:

Your points are very valid and I will consider them. I do think we need to cooperate with God’s grace. I don’t know if you read the article that Jim gave us the link to. The problem will falling from grace is then you must be born again a second time or a third or fourth time. That’s certainly problematic.

Kendy

Cool! Again, I appreciate your humility and willingess to talk on this subject. I know it is not easy to carry a discussion like this with 5-6 people with dissenting views. You have done an admirable job.

Second, I don’t believe that we would have to be “born again”, again. Being born into God’s family is a one time event. And like the Prodigal Son, I can squander my inheritance. However, like the prodigal son, I can repent and my father will accept me back with open arms.

 

[jpete79]

Redbandito:

Cool! Again, I appreciate your humility and willingess to talk on this subject. I know it is not easy to carry a discussion like this with 5-6 people with dissenting views. You have done an admirable job.

Second, I don’t believe that we would have to be “born again”, again. Being born into God’s family is a one time event. And like the Prodigal Son, I can squander my inheritance. However, like the prodigal son, I can repent and my father will accept me back with open arms.

But in order to lose one’s salvation one would have to lose the gift of the Holy Spirit inside him/her. If you believe that the Spirit resides inside of us (read Ephesians and Galatians); then in order for us to lose salvation the Spirit would have to leave us. If we repent again, the Spirit comes to us again and we are reborn again.

 

[Redbandito]

**I cannot be certain that my belief on once saved always saved is right. I can be certain that **my heart lies with Jesus Christ as my authority and as long as that is the case that my Salvation is in Heaven as it has been promised.

This is like Sproul’s “fallible cannon of infallible books”, it means nothing. You have not said anything new here. You are merely playing on words here. IF, you cannot be certain that OSAS exists, then there is at least a theoretical possibility that you could be wrong. If that is the case, to be logically consistent, you must also submit that there is a possibility that you can lose your salvation. If there is a possibility, then that is not an absolute assurance. Not being able to have an absolute assurance flies in the face of OSAS.

 

[Redbandito]

jpete79:

But in order to lose one’s salvation one would have to lose the gift of the Holy Spirit inside him/her. If you believe that the Spirit resides inside of us (read Ephesians and Galatians); then in order for us to lose salvation the Spirit would have to leave us. If we repent again, the Spirit comes to us again and we are reborn again.

Not true. That is just begging the question. You have not established that falling from a state of grace means the Holy Spirit no longer dwells in you. You must first establish this before you use it as a foundation for your argument.

I reject that the “Spirit would have to leave us”. Therefore, there is no need to be “reborn again” in repentance.

 

[jpete79]

Redbandito:

This is like Sproul’s “fallible cannon of infallible books”, it means nothing. You have not said anything new here. You are merely playing on words here. IF, you cannot be certain that OSAS exists, then there is at least a theoretical possibility that you could be wrong. If that is the case, to be logically consistent, you must also submit that there is a possibility that you can lose your salvation. If there is a possibility, then that is not an absolute assurance. Not being able to have an absolute assurance flies in the face of OSAS.

If I died today, I would be certain that I would be with my Lord in Heaven. I wouldn’t be certain of my place in Heaven or what authority I may have, but I would be certain of my Salvation. I can’t be certain that I would hear Christ say, “well done my good and faithful servant,” but I can be certain that I will see him as that is where my faith lies…in obedience to Him (even though I am not perfect and sin often).

On that note, faith is often NOT logical. Is it logical that a virgin can conceive through the Spirit? Is it logical that an infinite God can come to earth in a finite body? Is it logical that the sins and disobedience of the billions upon billions of people who have lived could rest on the shoulders of one perfect man on the Cross? Is it logical that Christ returned from the dead?

From the worlds eyes, faith is not logical; it is foolishness. The cross is foolishness to the world. The reason why is because it defies logic. Faith defies logic.

Your argument about being logically consistent falls because it relies on worldy standards not Godly ones. Just because I say that I could be wrong doesn’t mean that my faith can’t say that I am right. We are to live by faith not by sight.

 

[jpete79]

Redbandito:

Not true. That is just begging the question. You have not established that falling from a state of grace means the Holy Spirit no longer dwells in you. You must first establish this before you use it as a foundation for your argument.

I reject that the “Spirit would have to leave us”. Therefore, there is no need to be “reborn again” in repentance.

Well, if Salvation means eternal life in Heaven then losing it must mean that your eternal dwelling place is taken from you. This would mean that Heaven is no longer your eternity but Hell is. Therefore the Spirit could no longer reside in you because it could not be condemned to Hell.

 

[Redbandito]

jpete79:

If I died today, I would be certain that I would be with my Lord in Heaven. I wouldn’t be certain of my place in Heaven or what authority I may have, but I would be certain of my Salvation. I can’t be certain that I would hear Christ say, “well done my good and faithful servant,” but I can be certain that I will see him as that is where my faith lies…in obedience to Him (even though I am not perfect and sin often).

On that note, faith is often NOT logical. Is it logical that a virgin can conceive through the Spirit? Is it logical that an infinite God can come to earth in a finite body? Is it logical that the sins and disobedience of the billions upon billions of people who have lived could rest on the shoulders of one perfect man on the Cross? Is it logical that Christ returned from the dead?

From the worlds eyes, faith is not logical; it is foolishness. The cross is foolishness to the world. The reason why is because it defies logic. Faith defies logic.

Your argument about being logically consistent falls because it relies on worldy standards not Godly ones. Just because I say that I could be wrong doesn’t mean that my faith can’t say that I am right. We are to live by faith not by sight.

Not true! Faith and Reason should not ever be opposed! While some things can be above reason and require faith. I should not believe something that is clearly illogical. Sometimes things are what C.S. Lewis would call suprareason (or above reason), but never can they be against reason and be believed. I think you better rethink your position on this. I would venture to guess that the majority of Christendom, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, would disagree with your position.

 

[jpete79]

Redbandito:

Not true! Faith and Reason should not ever be opposed! While some things can be above reason and require faith. I should not believe something that is clearly illogical. Sometimes things are what C.S. Lewis would call suprareason (or above reason), but never can they be against reason and be believed. I think you better rethink your position on this. I would venture to guess that the majority of Christendom, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, would disagree with your position.

Kendy:

Would you say that Christianity is logical? Out of curiousity. If it is logical why is most of the world against it? Doesn’t Paul say it is illogical when he says the cross is foolishness to the world?

What are your opinions as a fellow Protestant Christian?

Thanks
Jim

 

[Redbandito]

jpete79:

Well, if Salvation means eternal life in Heaven then losing it must mean that your eternal dwelling place is taken from you. This would mean that Heaven is no longer your eternity but Hell is. Therefore the Spirit could no longer reside in you because it could not be condemned to Hell.

That’s the thing, salvation is the end result of our justification and sanctification. I am saved, when I have perservered til the end. At the end of my life, I will be judged. If God deems that I have not been obedient, I will spend eternity separated from Him. You are right that the Holy Spirit could no longer reside in me at this point. However, there is nothing to say that He couldn’t while I am still alive and capable of repentance.

 

[Redbandito]

jpete79:

Kendy:

Would you say that Christianity is logical? Out of curiousity. If it is logical why is most of the world against it? Doesn’t Paul say it is illogical when he says the cross is foolishness to the world?

What are your opinions as a fellow Protestant Christian?

Thanks
Jim

Jim, I recommend Frank Sheed’s “Theology and Sanity”.

 

[Redbandito]

jpete79:

Kendy:

Would you say that Christianity is logical? Out of curiousity. If it is logical why is most of the world against it? Doesn’t Paul say it is illogical when he says the cross is foolishness to the world?

What are your opinions as a fellow Protestant Christian?

Thanks
Jim

Jim, are you saying that most of the world is logical, but Christians aren’t? I hope not. My argument is that most of the world lacks a reasonable approach to faith. If we look, for instance, at the argument that all religions are different roads that lead to the same place, you can see that is not reasonable. Most religions do not claim to lead to the same place. Thus, it is illogical to say that they do. So, when Christians distinguish their faith from other’s, they are the ones that are being logical. When the rest of the world says, “Jesus was just a great teacher, He isn’t God though”, they are being illogical. Why? Because as C.S.Lewis stated, “Aut Deus, Aut Homo Malus”. Either God or a bad man. Jesus claimed to be God. It is ingenuous to claim otherwise and then try and say he was a wise sage or a good man. For if Jesus claimed He was God, there are only three choices. Either He is God, He is a liar, or He is crazy. The “rest of the world” misses this logic and reason. We Christians can see it.

 

[jpete79]

I’ll tell you a story and its a long one and I hope you’ll read it.

I was born and raised in the Catholic Church. I received all the Sacraments straight through Confirmation but in the time that I was going through this my mother converted to Protestantism. It was this conversion that kept my family together as my parents were on the verge of divorce.

Now, after 8th Grade when I was Confirmed, my best friend invited me to his local Church’s Youth Group. I began to go and to believe in this man named Jesus Christ. See that was the difference to start. It was that Jesus Christ was a real man and is a real man today that we need to trust. It was about a year or two later that I said, I wanted Him as Savior.

Even though I said that Christ was Savior, I did not totally get rid of my worldly ways. This was when I was about 18 now and I continually strived for popularity. I was involved with heavy drinking, partying, etc in high-school.

After I left for college my strivings continued. I began to ignore classes altogether and smoke and drink with my fraternity brothers. I failed out and came home where my drug habit became worse while working in a bar/restaurant.

Now one may say that through this I lost my Salvation but I don’t believe that to be true. I’ll tell you why.

Even though, I continued on in worldly ways, I began realizing that worldly ways weren’t for me. That is not what was meant for me. Little by little I took things out of my life, first I started with heavy drugs, then smoking, then alcohol. It took many years for these things to be purged from me but little by little I was rid of them.

This happened about 4 years ago where I was rid of many of my habits. Were they disobedient to God? Yes! Does it mean that I wasn’t saved? No! Because through it all the Spirit was helping rid me of those problems.

After 9/11 and after a friend committed suicide, I began to take my faith even one more step as I began to realize that it wasn’t about me. Yes, God wanted a relationship with me but He also wanted a relationship with others. Because of that realization (especially after seeing tragedy more than once), I took the next step to head into Missions in Muslim Nations.

Long story short, when I was 16 I said yes to the need for a Savior. When I was 22 I was broken to the point where I wanted others to see this need as well. However, the seed was planted at 16 and God never let go.

That’s why John 10 is my favorite Chapter about Christ never letting anything pluck us from His hands and why Romans 8 is my favorite Chapter about how nothing will ever separate us from the Father’s Love. Through my life, I should have been separated but He continually brought me back. His Spirit has been working and will continue to work within me.

God Bless,
Jim

 

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

This is like Sproul’s “fallible cannon of infallible books”, it means nothing. You have not said anything new here. You are merely playing on words here. IF, you cannot be certain that OSAS exists, then there is at least a theoretical possibility that you could be wrong. If that is the case, to be logically consistent, you must also submit that there is a possibility that you can lose your salvation. If there is a possibility, then that is not an absolute assurance. Not being able to have an absolute assurance flies in the face of OSAS.

Well, there is a slight diiference between being assured of one’s salvation and never being able to lose one’s salvation. The first is being in Christ, if I die tonight will I go heaven, and the second is whether that will always be the case and can that ever change. It seems to me that they might be two seperate issues.

Being absolutely certain that one is right. That seems like a bit much. There is a theoretical possibility that I am not reallt writing this e-mail, and it’s all a dream. I can say that it’s possible, but not probable and I don’t believe that it is true. And therefore, I live as if what I believe to be reality is indeed reality.
Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

Not true. That is just begging the question. You have not established that falling from a state of grace means the Holy Spirit no longer dwells in you. You must first establish this before you use it as a foundation for your argument.

I reject that the “Spirit would have to leave us”. Therefore, there is no need to be “reborn again” in repentance.

So, Redbandito, what do you mean by falling from grace?

 

[desire_the_end]

Jim, Amen.

But here’s a question to wpm, redbandito, kendy, and yourself:
You’ve quoted passages both for, and against OSAS, yet all I’m hearing is, “choose one or the other.” Certainly, it can be both!

The phrase “once saved always saved” has implications of its own. It’s a tautology, if I’m not mistaken. It is logical and quite Biblical. After all, if you’re saved, what more evidence do you need to come to knowledge of your salvation? You’re saved!

However many Protestants use this as a slogan for some sort of doctrine (for lack of a more appropriate word) that says “once you accept Jesus into your heart” (whatever that means) “…you are saved!” But if this is true at all (no matter what extra terminology or doctrinal physiology you add to this OSAS business), then we must concede that being “born again” or “submitting in obedience to our Lord God” is an act of free will.

It seems to me that we forget that the Holy Spirit was given to us due to our Holy Brother Jesus’ assumption to heaven. And if an act of free will actualizes the Holy Spirit to dwell within us, surely we can make it leave, though with much difficulty, with that same will power.

In Grace,
Tony

P.S. I’d like to echo my previous post: this thread/topic is scrumtulescent.

 

[Kendy]

jpete79:

Kendy:

Would you say that Christianity is logical? Out of curiousity. If it is logical why is most of the world against it? Doesn’t Paul say it is illogical when he says the cross is foolishness to the world?

What are your opinions as a fellow Protestant Christian?

Thanks
Jim

Well, I am afraid we may have to engage in the painful task of defining logic before we can tackle this question fairly. It is possible that we do not mean the same thing.

But I am inclined to believe that the laws of logic, the one we use to make scientific inferences are part of God’s creative order, and therefore, are not contradictory to faith. I think it’s ok to at least consider using these tools when we talk about faith, unless they prove to be inadequate. This is one of the struggles I have had with the evangelical debate about gender. The complementarian side often accuses the egalitarian of relying on logic rather than faith, which implies that biblical teachings should be illogical.

On the other hand, I think God does use the foolish things, or things that are counterintuitive to human nature. For example, if someone slaps you, it is human nature to to strike back, but Jesus calls us to turn the other cheek. Turning the other cheek is not illogical. Rather it invites the other person to consider a different view of the world, it offers them grace, which can both shame them and lead them to repentence. It is not an invitation to be abused but rather an opportunity to deal with the situation in your own terms, from an ethic of love. The ethic of love is not illogical. However, it is also not carnal.

Frankly, I need to think about this a lot more.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

That’s the thing, salvation is the end result of our justification and sanctification. I am saved, when I have perservered til the end. At the end of my life, I will be judged. If God deems that I have not been obedient, I will spend eternity separated from Him. You are right that the Holy Spirit could no longer reside in me at this point. However, there is nothing to say that He couldn’t while I am still alive and capable of repentance.

So does the Holy Spirit then dwell in everybody?

Also, this creates a picture in my mind in which God pulls out a record book and weight the good against the bad. I imagine that that is not what you mean so I would like you to elaborate.

Earlier, I offered my own story of facing God, and essentially said, when I am judged, I will say, I plead the cross. What would you say?

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

jpete79:

I’ll tell you a story and its a long one and I hope you’ll read it.

I was born and raised in the Catholic Church. I received all the Sacraments straight through Confirmation but in the time that I was going through this my mother converted to Protestantism. It was this conversion that kept my family together as my parents were on the verge of divorce.

Now, after 8th Grade when I was Confirmed, my best friend invited me to his local Church’s Youth Group. I began to go and to believe in this man named Jesus Christ. See that was the difference to start. It was that Jesus Christ was a real man and is a real man today that we need to trust. It was about a year or two later that I said, I wanted Him as Savior.

Even though I said that Christ was Savior, I did not totally get rid of my worldly ways. This was when I was about 18 now and I continually strived for popularity. I was involved with heavy drinking, partying, etc in high-school.

After I left for college my strivings continued. I began to ignore classes altogether and smoke and drink with my fraternity brothers. I failed out and came home where my drug habit became worse while working in a bar/restaurant.

Now one may say that through this I lost my Salvation but I don’t believe that to be true. I’ll tell you why.

Even though, I continued on in worldly ways, I began realizing that worldly ways weren’t for me. That is not what was meant for me. Little by little I took things out of my life, first I started with heavy drugs, then smoking, then alcohol. It took many years for these things to be purged from me but little by little I was rid of them.

This happened about 4 years ago where I was rid of many of my habits. Were they disobedient to God? Yes! Does it mean that I wasn’t saved? No! Because through it all the Spirit was helping rid me of those problems.

After 9/11 and after a friend committed suicide, I began to take my faith even one more step as I began to realize that it wasn’t about me. Yes, God wanted a relationship with me but He also wanted a relationship with others. Because of that realization (especially after seeing tragedy more than once), I took the next step to head into Missions in Muslim Nations.

Long story short, when I was 16 I said yes to the need for a Savior. When I was 22 I was broken to the point where I wanted others to see this need as well. However, the seed was planted at 16 and God never let go.

That’s why John 10 is my favorite Chapter about Christ never letting anything pluck us from His hands and why Romans 8 is my favorite Chapter about how nothing will ever separate us from the Father’s Love. Through my life, I should have been separated but He continually brought me back. His Spirit has been working and will continue to work within me.

God Bless,
Jim

Jim,

I don’t think it’s cute for you to steal my story. (J/K)

 

[Kendy]

desire the end:

Jim, Amen.

But here’s a question to wpm, redbandito, kendy, and yourself:
You’ve quoted passages both for, and against OSAS, yet all I’m hearing is, “choose one or the other.” Certainly, it can be both!

The phrase “once saved always saved” has implications of its own. It’s a tautology, if I’m not mistaken. It is logical and quite Biblical. After all, if you’re saved, what more evidence do you need to come to knowledge of your salvation? You’re saved!

However many Protestants use this as a slogan for some sort of doctrine (for lack of a more appropriate word) that says “once you accept Jesus into your heart” (whatever that means) “…you are saved!” But if this is true at all (no matter what extra terminology or doctrinal physiology you add to this OSAS business), then we must concede that being “born again” or “submitting in obedience to our Lord God” is an act of free will.

It seems to me that we forget that the Holy Spirit was given to us due to our Holy Brother Jesus’ assumption to heaven. And if an act of free will actualizes the Holy Spirit to dwell within us, surely we can make it leave, though with much difficulty, with that same will power.

In Grace,
Tony

P.S. I’d like to echo my previous post: this thread/topic is scrumtulescent.

So, if we can make it leave, and your logic here is quite solid, it would follow in order to go to heaven, we would have to reborn again?

Kendy