Justification by Faith?

[Elzee]

christaddict:

The guy also talked about Romans 10 where it’s written “when we confess by faith we are saved and justified”.

I read an article by Tim Staples once on this verse and it’s the best thing I’ve ever read. In Greek, the word used for ‘confess’ denotes an on-going action. It is not a ‘one-time’ confession. It is an on-going confession of faith during your life-time.

I made up this comparison to help explain it to an evangelical friend of mine:

Romans 10:9: If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
My comparison: If you sing in the choir you will be given a choir robe.

The obvious understanding of the second passage is as long as you sing in the choir you will be able to wear a robe. Not, if you sing in the choir once, you’ll be given a robe to wear forever!

It’s a pretty simplistic example but has helped me many times. They may not agree with the analogy, but I promise you it will make them think - which is what you want them to do.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

My comparison: If you sing in the choir you will be given a choir robe.

Elzee! That’s really great. :clapping:

May we all steal it?
VC

 

[Elzee]

Verbum Caro:

Elzee! That’s really great. :clapping:

May we all steal it?
VC

I’d be honored! I’m always asking for help on these forums so I would love to think I’ve offered something of value to you guys for a change! Thank you!

 

[wpr]

RedBandito,

I very much liked your explanation. To a fault at times I tend to be legalistic. At the same time, the Sungenis book is seeking to speak to “Sola Fide” Christians, who, as you said do think in legalistic terms although I don’t think they would say that. I think it accomplishes that.

The irony is that I was strengthened by Sungenis’ method such that your explanation shined brighter for me.

 

[Redbandito]

wpr:

RedBandito,

I very much liked your explanation. To a fault at times I tend to be legalistic. At the same time, the Sungenis book is seeking to speak to “Sola Fide” Christians, who, as you said do think in legalistic terms although I don’t think they would say that. I think it accomplishes that.

The irony is that I was strengthened by Sungenis’ method such that your explanation shined brighter for me.

I can’t claim it as my own. I recommend the chapter on Justification in Hahn’s Catholic for a Reason. It explains justification as divine sonship. It is nowhere near as thorough as Not by Faith Alone, but it summarizes better in one chapter what it took Sungenis 700 pages to do. I, personally, loved Sungenis’ book. It was a wealth of information. What it continues to do is debate on Protestant “turf”. As Catholics, we need to take the debate out of the courtroom and into the livingroom. My best friend is an ex-Church of Christ, ex-Baptist Evangelical, and is now trying to work out his coming into the Church. Besides contraception and authority, he states that this was the sole biggest reason for his love for the Church. He stated that his understanding of divine sonship transformed his whole understanding of God and salvation. We, as Catholics, need to get back to this approach. It will end all the controversy over the faith and works and assurance of salvation arguments. In fact, another Baptist buddy of mine that I have been debating for several years based on Sungenis’ book seemed hopeless until we talked about divine sonship. He now has rejected an absolute assurance of salvation and sola fide. God bless the Church.

 

[javelin]

wpr and Redbandito,

Perhaps a bit belated, but welcome to the forums!

Both of your contributions to this discussion have been very well put, and a blessing to us all. Please continue to hang around and share your faith with us! I know that I could stand to learn from your insight and charity.

Peace,
javelin

 

[javelin]

jpete79,

I am glad to see you have returned to the forums. I hope your time here brings you many blessings.

One time several years ago, after talking with my brother (an evalgelical) about faith alone, I decided, even though it was quite late, to look up some things in Matthew that were on the tip of my tongue, but not forthcoming. What ended up happening was I read through the entire gospel with “faith alone” and “once saved always saved” (OSAS) on my mind, and what I found was a list even longer that what wpr offered earlier (at least it seemed that long ) of passages that seemed to directly refute those doctrines.

One of my favorites is the parable of the prodigal son. As has been mentioned, we are the son, and are able (because God allows it) to take our inheritance into our own hands and turn from Him. But, Oh! the joy when we return!

It is important that the gospels are searched for this, because they can appear so contradictory to how many people interpret Paul’s epistles, that some believe that Paul did not even teach true Christianity as described by Jesus, but a different belief system entirely. The Catholic Church, of course, does not believe this! Rather, we have a slightly different understanding of Paul that fits Jesus’ teaching perfectly.

Give yourself a blessing and immerse yourself in the gospels this week looking for what they are saying about sola fide and OSAS. I will pray that God reveals much to you.

Peace,
javelin

 

[wpr]

Jpete79 and Javelin,

A great Deacon gave me some advice that I will never forget. For each our journey to the faith is different. We do not convert, only the Spirit converts. So contrary to my type A (big time driver) personality!

Javelin, you put it so nicely. We should immerse ourselves in the Scriptures! Jpete79 and I surely should do so.

As a person of Lutheran upbringing, I read the “Documents of the Lutheran Church MO Synod” and the Catholic Catechism. At the same time, I read the Gospels, Romans, and 1,2 Corinthians. Catholic doctrine leapt off the pages of Scripture at me. I simply did not find Sola Fide or Sola Scriptura or anything about an “invisible Church on earth”.

I continued with the “Faith of the Early Fathers”. Yet again, I saw the Catholic Church. Especially the Eucharist! Baptist’s, (may God bles them) may not see John 6 as meaning the true presence, but St Ignatius of Antioch sure did! (Letter to the Smyrnaeans (AD 110).

Thank you for your kind words. I’m glad to be a part of this discussion.

 

[Redbandito]

javelin:

wpr and Redbandito,

Perhaps a bit belated, but welcome to the forums!

Both of your contributions to this discussion have been very well put, and a blessing to us all. Please continue to hang around and share your faith with us! I know that I could stand to learn from your insight and charity.

Peace,
javelin

Thank you for your kind words. It’s never to late too late to be hospitable. I too, have enjoyed the many threads on this website. What a great resource! Anyway, look forward to more discussions with you. God’s blessings!

Josh

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

christaddict:

Well, here is the story. I had a debate yesterday after I was returning after mass. Two “evengelical”(protestant) guys walked alongside to “discuss” something about who goes to heaven or to hell. Down the line, I rejected to believe that faith alone saves us.

If one interprets it in such a way as to draw the conclusion that we need only sit on on our fundaments and be wholly inactive - it is false​

If one interprets it in such a way as to draw the conclusion that we are free to “sin on more”; or even, that we should sin as much as possible, so that God may have the opportunity to forgive us our sins - that is to make God an encourager of sin, and to overthrow the revelation of God in the Bible & Christ from its very foundations

If one interprets it to mean that faith is to be the motive power of our whole relation with God, it’s so obvious that one should apologise to others thinking they have not grasped it. After all - look at Hebrews 11.6. the logic of that is, that by faith we lay hold on everything else in the Christian’s relation with Christ. IOW - faith is alone, because it contains everything else - a bit as a door is “alone” the entrace to a house, because it gives us access to everything in it; while those who smash the windows & break in, are thiefs and robbers. If we are to come to Christ, it muse be by His ways, no others. Obviously, life in in Christ is far better than any house, far richer, far more living.

Equally, one cannot judge the faith of others: God alone can do that, for our hearts, mouths, & minds often fail to be perfectly agreed. ##

Well, that says that since we already have the right to go to heaven,

The Holy Spirit in us is our pledge that we are heirs with Christ - but the language of rights is better avoided, as this all comes from grace.​

and it doesn’t matter if we sin.

Is that second part your conclusion from their words, or what they said ? In one sense, that would be true, in that our sins cannot preval against God’s Will to save us - but taken to the letter, it’s not true, as sin = Deicide, in principle; it is enmity to God - we can hardly say we love God, if we are re-crucifying Him by our sinning. Murdering someone is not usually regarded as consistent with loving them.​

I rejected that straithaway. For I read in St. Paul’s letter to corinthians that if go on committing sin there is no sacrifice of salvation. (I guess I am close to that verse)

I’ve raised many questions such as “It is said that Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead. Whom and Why does he judge?” He says that it’s for the unbelievers. Later, I thought so why is there judgement, they can be damned to hell straightaway.

The guy also talked about Romans 10 where it’s written “when we confess by faith we are saved and justified”.

When I returned back home to read more to defend that. I’ve found the gospels where Christ clearly talks about who is saved and who is not. That everyone who says “Lord Lord” will not enter the kingdom of heaven but who does the will of the Father. Another is an answer to rich young man’s question where Christ says to obey the commandments and later to give the wealth to the poor. Here we see that the works of righteousness that makes us eligible for eternal life.

I find that thing is so wrong and has inclination to sin, but it is said that we are accountable for every word that we speak, we are accountable for the even the gift of talents. It’s there in the gospels!

It’s a kind of debate on justification, salvation, eligibility for heaven.

Any more explanation to back this up?

 

[christaddict]

Gottle of Geer:

Is that second part your conclusion from their words, or what they said ?##​

Well, I asked them 'If a “believer” commits suicide, is he going to heaven or hell?" after listening patiently, to his words and scripture quotes. I asked him(pastor) again “So, he will go to heaven?” … he nodded meaning yes but that silence said a lot … I wish I could grab over from there, but I just kept them in my heart.

…

/

 

[christaddict]

Gottle of Geer:

If one interprets it in such a way as to draw the conclusion that we are free to “sin on more”; or even, that we should sin as much as possible, so that God may have the opportunity to forgive us our sins - that is to make God an encourager of sin, and to overthrow the revelation of God in the Bible & Christ from its very foundations

So True!

“Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly… No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.”
Martin Luther, letter to Melanchthon, August 1, 1521

 

[christaddict]

Gottle of Geer:

Is that second part your conclusion from their words, or what they said ? In one sense, that would be true, in that our sins cannot preval against God’s Will to save us - but taken to the letter, it’s not true, as sin = Deicide, in principle; it is enmity to God - we can hardly say we love God, if we are re-crucifying Him by our sinning. Murdering someone is not usually regarded as consistent with loving them.​

Time and time again we see people see just the physicality of an issue … christianity is all about the spiritual stuff … this life is all about preparing yourself for Home, the heaven … and we see numerous instances in the gospels were Jesus talks about the importance of spiritual things … now coming to the point …considering the physical issues … when Jesus said one has to be born-again to enter the kingdom of Heaven, the teacher saw and wondered how that is possible to be born again … he was seeing the physical not the spiritual aspect of it.

When I said crucifixion/ murder that really doesn’t mean physically … Do NOT Murder … is the commandment … but is it just the physical murder of the body which is mentioned?

 

[christaddict]

For God so loved the world that he gave 7 his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
John 3: 16



What distinguishes us from them?

Think about that … there is more to the word ‘BELIEVE’

 

[wpr]

If one interprets it to mean that faith is to be the motive power of our whole relation with God, it’s so obvious that one should apologise to others thinking they have not grasped it. After all - look at Hebrews 11.6. the logic of that is, that by faith we lay hold on everything else in the Christian’s relation with Christ. IOW - faith is alone, because it contains everything else - a bit as a door is “alone” the entrace to a house, because it gives us access to everything in it; while those who smash the windows & break in, are thiefs and robbers. If we are to come to Christ, it muse be by His ways, no others. Obviously, life in in Christ is far better than any house, far richer, far more living.

Gottle of Jeer

Forgive me, I’m new, so I’m not entirely sure where you stand.

Your “house/door” analogy almost works. That faith requires us to live as Christ calls us to live is Catholic (“faith is alone, because it contains everything else”). That such a life necessarily follows from an initial act of faith is another matter all together.

Your all encompassing definition of faith requires modifying the “faith alone” and “once saved always saved” salvation theory to require that the initial act of faith be shown conciously or subconciously by one’s life. You said “faith alone” includes everything else and “life in Christ is far better than any house.” What else is life in Christ than following his calling? This is a slippery slope to Catholicism. Please do study that angle! You may arrive in Rome.

In my view, even those who live in your metaphorical house indeed need to mind the rules. Otherwise, Christ will, metaphorically, show them the door out on judgement day.

If you counter by saying “they never lived in the house” they were the thieves and robbers since they did not have faith in first place; you may be in trouble. That concept has to be a frightening for a beleiver in Faith Alone. Forget about yourself for a moment, think of your brothers. Should they not spend their lives wondering if thier faith was adequately shown by their lives?

As for me, I put my faith in God and thus His Church to guide me to salvation. I am far from alone in the matter.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

christaddict:

Well, I asked them 'If a “believer” commits suicide, is he going to heaven or hell?" after listening patiently, to his words and scripture quotes. I asked him(pastor) again “So, he will go to heaven?” … he nodded meaning yes but that silence said a lot … I wish I could grab over from there, but I just kept them in my heart.

…

/

Thanks - I don’t see how you came to your conclusion.​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

wpr:

Gottle of Geer:

If one interprets it to mean that faith is to be the motive power of our whole relation with God, it’s so obvious that one should apologise to others thinking they have not grasped it. After all - look at Hebrews 11.6. the logic of that is, that by faith we lay hold on everything else in the Christian’s relation with Christ. IOW - faith is alone, because it contains everything else - a bit as a door is “alone” the entrace to a house, because it gives us access to everything in it; while those who smash the windows & break in, are thiefs and robbers. If we are to come to Christ, it muse be by His ways, no others. Obviously, life in in Christ is far better than any house, far richer, far more living.

Gottle of Jeer

Forgive me, I’m new, so I’m not entirely sure where you stand.

Your “house/door” analogy almost works. That faith requires us to live as Christ calls us to live is Catholic (“faith is alone, because it contains everything else”). That such a life necessarily follows from an initial act of faith is another matter all together.

I said nothing about necessity - that such a life follows, is itself due wholly, every instant of it, to God’s grace​

Your all encompassing definition of faith requires modifying the “faith alone” and “once saved always saved” salvation theory to require that the initial act of faith be shown conciously or subconciously by one’s life. You said “faith alone” includes everything else and “life in Christ is far better than any house.” What else is life in Christ than following his calling? This is a slippery slope to Catholicism. Please do study that angle! You may arrive in Rome.

I’m RC already, but thanks - AFAICS, a great deal of what the Reformers taught is perfectly compatible with Catholicism: attention seems to be given to what is not, ot to what is expressed in a way that sounds unCatholic.​

FWIW, I don’t think there is anything unusual in this “all-encompassing” definition - see fivesolas.com/5solas.htm#Fide - see the whole page. ##

In my view, even those who live in your metaphorical house indeed need to mind the rules. Otherwise, Christ will, metaphorically, show them the door out on judgement day.

IMO one should emphasise obedience: ISTM that obedience to rules - if one stops at rules, and goes no deeper - degenerates into just the kind of legalism that Jesus rebuked. Obedience, OTOH, far from being abolished by grace, becomes even more necessary - a nice paradox. Jesus was supremely free & supremely obedient - He was motivated by Love: He is our Model. But He was not a rule-follower when rules got in the way of obedience & love. The spirit of obedience is more important than rules - and even obedience needs purifying: if it takes us away from Christ, somehing is wrong.​

Ultimately (ISTM) one cannot distinguish between perfect freedom & perfect obedience: they are identical. They look different to us, because we are fallen, sinful, self-willed, limited by our creatureliness, & because we have to use concepts and reason: if we were angels, we would see clearly, sinlessly, & by intuition: but we aren’t. ##

If you counter by saying “they never lived in the house” they were the thieves and robbers since they did not have faith in first place; you may be in trouble. That concept has to be a frightening for a beleiver in Faith Alone. Forget about yourself for a moment, think of your brothers. Should they not spend their lives wondering if thier faith was adequately shown by their lives?

We should spend our lives looking to Christ - by Him, we become able to see all else, neighbour included. Without Christ, nothing is of the least value: so it would be ridiculous for us to think of our salvation in isolation from Him. We cannot be saved without love - if we love Christ, then we cannot be lost - if our love is real, it will be an obedient love.​

So the concept loses its sting - because all love of God & neighbour is wholly a grace: and where there is grace, there is no room for judging others (that is to play at being Christ). We can judge others only if we claim to be more righteous than others: since righteousness is worthless if it is not derived from Christ’s grace, we are incompetent to do so - sinfulness levels us all; & so, in a different way, does grace ##

As for me, I put my faith in God and thus His Church to guide me to salvation. I am far from alone in the matter.

 

[desire_the_end]

I think this is the clearest and most wonderful conversation I’ve ever read on the topic. You’ve been blessed with terribly sharp minds, and humble hearts.

Blessings,
Tony

 

[wpr]

Hello Gottle of Jeer

I replied in bold below. I think this is a bit off topic.

## I said nothing about necessity - that such a life follows, is itself due wholly, every instant of it, to God’s grace ##

Yes, it is only by God’s grace that anything we offer Him is worthy.

**Yet, we still make decisions. To illustrate the point. I do not believe a life that acts on Christ’s calling will spontaneously combust from faith. If it is supposed to, I’m in big trouble.

I have to work at it. Submit, reflect, and rethink what I do day to day. Do what does not come naturally to me. I speak only of myself. **

I’m RC already, but thanks - AFAICS, a great deal of what the Reformers taught is perfectly compatible with Catholicism: attention seems to be given to what is not, ot to what is expressed in a way that sounds unCatholic.​

I wondered, that’s why I asked your forgiveness and said “I’m not sure where you stand” in my first post. Faith in the sense Paul taught and James taught you are quite right. Faith like that of Abraham! That’s what popped in to my puny brain when I read your description

FWIW, I don’t think there is anything unusual in this “all-encompassing” definition - see fivesolas.com/5solas.htm#Fide - see the whole page. ##

**I agree, not if you keep Paul and James in mind. I don’t think your description is what Luther had on his mind. Shall I illustrate? **

IMO one should emphasise obedience: ISTM that obedience to rules - if one stops at rules, and goes no deeper - degenerates into just the kind of legalism that Jesus rebuked. Obedience, OTOH, far from being abolished by grace, becomes even more necessary - a nice paradox. Jesus was supremely free & supremely obedient - He was motivated by Love: He is our Model. But He was not a rule-follower when rules got in the way of obedience & love. The spirit of obedience is more important than rules - and even obedience needs purifying: if it takes us away from Christ, somehing is wrong.​

**Yes, yes, I hesitated to use the word “rule”. It was not a well placed word. I thought the quip just a clever way to make a quick point. Basically that with faith/acceptance of Christ comes a responsibility to act. Poor choice of words, my bad.

I beg your charity I absolutely did not mean that in any way shape or form we may obligate God through our works in following His calling. I did read Romans (about 5 times now and I still don 't understand it completely)**

Ultimately (ISTM) one cannot distinguish between perfect freedom & perfect obedience: they are identical. They look different to us, because we are fallen, sinful, self-willed, limited by our creatureliness, & because we have to use concepts and reason: if we were angels, we would see clearly, sinlessly, & by intuition: but we aren’t. ##

I’ll be honest, you lost me here. I’m just a mere mechanical engineer. Sometimes you have to hit us over the head. By the way, I’m definitely no angel.

We should spend our lives looking to Christ - by Him, we become able to see all else, neighbour included. Without Christ, nothing is of the least value: so it would be ridiculous for us to think of our salvation in isolation from Him. We cannot be saved without love - if we love Christ, then we cannot be lost - if our love is real, it will be an obedient love.​

Amen again. I pray that God keeps me in the palm of His hand.

**But are you saying this is equivalent to what our good OSAS brothers believe? I’m not trying to pick a fight here, I’m just trying to understand your point and relate it to the "Faith Alone Thread? **

So the concept loses its sting - because all love of God & neighbour is wholly a grace: and where there is grace, there is no room for judging others (that is to play at being Christ). We can judge others only if we claim to be more righteous than others: since righteousness is worthless if it is not derived from Christ’s grace, we are incompetent to do so - sinfulness levels us all; & so, in a different way, does grace ##

 

[Athanasius18]

i think that we are not that far off in our views from protestants. i think this article really cleared things up:

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=18021