Justification by Faith?

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Hi Kendy! Your church and your pastor sound like a neat place where you’ve grown in your faith. My point was because jpete wrote “This parable is talking about the original reunion between us and God.”, and it seemed to me that he thought the parable supported OSAS. Maybe I missed his point.:o I don’t see any proof about OSAS in this parable that the son couldn’t walk away again, (although having once lived with pigs he probably wouldn’t want to.) And yes, a rebellious son is still a son; but when he was rebellious, he walked away from his father and his father let him.

Anyway, I was responding to something you wrote when I saw your post on my pre-view screen. It hard having multiple conversations on the same thread.
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Kendy:
So, it’s ok to go to Mass because you should. I just don’t think it’s ok to go to mass to earn your salvation.
I don’t go to Mass to “earn” my salavation. That’s not Catholic teaching. But we sometimes go to Mass so our salvation won’t be lost.

No, your mom won’t disown you for not calling, especially if you have a good reason. I think the example of calling is more like prayer. What if she were throwing a very special banquet, and you refused to go because you prefered to sleep in that Sunday? Might that harm your relationship with her and require an apology from you?
 
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gardenswithkids:
Hi Kendy! Your church and your pastor sound like a neat place where you’ve grown in your faith. My point was because jpete wrote “This parable is talking about the original reunion between us and God.”, and it seemed to me that he thought the parable supported OSAS. Maybe I missed his point.:o I don’t see any proof about OSAS in this parable that the son couldn’t walk away again, (although having once lived with pigs he probably wouldn’t want to.) And yes, a rebellious son is still a son; but when he was rebellious, he walked away from his father and his father let him.

Anyway, I was responding to something you wrote when I saw your post on my pre-view screen. It hard having multiple conversations on the same thread.I don’t go to Mass to “earn” my salavation. That’s not Catholic teaching. But we sometimes go to Mass so our salvation won’t be lost.

No, your mom won’t disown you for not calling, especially if you have a good reason. I think the example of calling is more like prayer. What if she were throwing a very special banquet, and you refused to go because you prefered to sleep in that Sunday? Might that harm your relationship with her and require an apology from you?
I think an apology would be in order to mend the wound in the relationship, but not to reestablish it, which I realize is not what you are saying. So, we agree! Let’s go tell the masses 👍
 
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jpete79:
Next we look at the two sons. First, we see one who asked for his share of the estate only to squander it later. This is representative of sinners of the world. Christ is talking to sinners who have walked away with the father’s inheritance and squandered it. This is the first group he is talking to. Just as God created us and gave us certain grace, we have walked away disobedient squandering everything he gave us.

Verse 17 is the key part of this because it shows the transformation of the younger son. He realizes that he has sinned against his father and heaven. He realizes that he is no longer worthy to be called his father’s child. Again this is pointed towards the sinners telling them that repentence is needed for the reunion between father and son, between God and us.

After this we see Christ tell of the father celebrating his reunion with his son. They have a feast, they drape him with robes, they kill the best calves for food; why? Because his son was lost and now is found.

Remember at this point, sinners and tax-collectors were still learning about Christ (the crowd he is talking to). This parable is talking about the original reunion between us and God. Our original inheritance which was squandered in the Garden of Eden. Christ is saying if we repent, God will welcome us back and celebrate us. We were dead to sin but we can be reborn through repentence because Christ knew he would be dying so that our inheritance can be regained.

Now we come to the older brother. He is bitter and angry and refused to go in to the banquet in celebration of his younger brother. The older brother is representative of the second group Christ was talking to which is the Pharisees. They don’t understand the concept of grace because to them life was about laws and obeying orders. Finally we see again why there is celebration for the lost son. Because he was dead and is now found.
JPete, I appreciate the effort. And while I agree that you did use a lot of Scripture to prove your point (albeit, it is impossible to do this apart from a lens, because we all approach Scripture with a lens), it does not take a canonical approach to this Scripture. JPete, when you understand that justification equals divine sonship, as Jesus and Paul did, then you understand that your explanation is simply not plausible.

For starters, we only become “sons” AFTER our initial justification. We become sons through becoming “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Pet 1:4). Through becoming partakers of the divine nature, we are “adopted” (Rom 8, Gal 4). This is not speculation. This is Biblical fact. Thus, when Jesus is talking about two sons, IF He is indeed paralleling it to His Father in Heaven, then we MUST be talking about two people that are already justified.

C.S. Lewis talks about this in Mere Christianity when he makes the distinction between being created and begotten. When one is begotten, he shares the same nature as his begetter. When one is created, he does not. In the same way I could not adopt my dog as my son, because we do not share natures, neither could God adopt us without sharing his nature. Thus, it is metaphysically impossible and thus a legal fiction, to state that the two “sons” are anything other than already justified. That was a valiant effort, but poor exegesis.

Now follow me. Since these two must already be justified to be called his sons in the parable, this MUST reflect that one can squander their inheritance. Paul deals with this in Galatians 4. He states, “7So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.” So, we become “heirs” or gain our “inheritance” through becoming a son. It makes no sense for you to assert that someone who is not justified has squandered his inheritance. No slave has an inheritance to squander. He ONLY gains this inheritance through becoming a son. This is the only way of interpreting this parable in being true to the text.

Finally, what you say about the brother is also flawed. Again, the brother was called a “son”. Then comes the part that you conveniently left out. It states, **“31” ‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. **32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ " Thus, the father makes it very clear that HIS SON, SHARES IN EVERYTHING of his. It would be improper to make the comparison to the older son and the pharisees and leave it at that, because the pharisees are not “sons”, and they do not share “everything” with the Father. Now, you did a good job coming up with a plausible explanation. However, to be honest to the WHOLE of the text, you are going to have to revisit that explanation.
 
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Kendy:
Now, I always interpreted that story as jews (stayed at home) and gentiles (prodigal son).

But still I am not sure that it proves or disproves OSAS. When the prodigal son was out squandering his father wealth, he was still a son. He didn’t have to become a son again. But now, he was no longer a rebellious son. A rebellious son is still a son.

Kendy
Kendy, you’re missing the point of the parable. What is the “inheritance” that the son squandered?
 
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Kendy:
So, it’s ok to go to Mass because you should. I just don’t think it’s ok to go to mass to earn your salvation.

Kendy
But we don’t go to Mass to “earn” our salvation. The idea that we can “earn” our salvation by doing whatever (fill in the blank) is a heresy called Pelagianism, which was condemned in the early centuries of the Church.

We go to Mass because worshipping the God that made us is integral to being truly human. We go because God commands us to. We go to participate in the eternal sacrifice of Christ by receiving the Eucharist. If it were unimportant or optional, it wouldn’t be high up on the list of commandments.
At the Catholic Mass, a miracle occurs. Heaven touches earth, and we are brought to the foot of the Cross—and we consume the flesh of our God as he wished us to do, just as the Jews were to eat the Passover lamb. If we think, “Oh, I think I’ll sleep in today”, it is a clear symptom of a serious spiritual illness and an indication of a profound ignorance of just what goes on at Mass. And yes, this illness can be fatal. Since the cure for this ignorance and spiritual sickness is found at Mass, it becomes important to go even if we’d rather sleep in. Obedience is VERY important—just ask Adam and Eve! When you think about it, just what’s the big deal about eating from the Tree? I mean, it’s just fruit, right, and God isn’t going to sever a relationship over fruit…would He?
I don’t mess with God’s commandments, or define “command” in a way that better suits my lifestyle. (By the way, I’m NOT pointing this at you personally, Kendy–I’m not trying to be confrontational but am speaking in a general way.)
 
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Kendy:
I think an apology would be in order to mend the wound in the relationship, but not to reestablish it, which I realize is not what you are saying. So, we agree! Let’s go tell the masses 👍
Seems like those two are one and the same. We don’t have to “re-establish” the relationship in the sense that we have to start from scratch necessarily. However, without mending the wound in our relationship, it is quite possible that you are your mother will stop participating in that relationship. If a long enough time goes by, before you apologize and start talking again, you will have to work to get it back to where it used to be. Even your analogy has some fatal flaws.
 
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gardenswithkids:
Thank you jpete for explaining your view of the Prodigal son. I do have a serious question. (My question posted above was also serious, but in a fun-loving, playful kind of way.)

You say the first group represents the sinners of the world whose inheritance was squandered in the garden of Eden. Yet if the inheritance was squandered in Eden, why aren’t the pharisees included with those sinners whose original inheritance was squandered in Eden since everyone’s “inheritance” was lost in the Fall?
Hey,

In response to the first question…LOL. I think that was one of the wittiest responses I’ve heard in a long time.

In all seriousness since it did have a somewhat serious ring to it; I do want to say that I am not sitting here completely oblivious to what is said (on occassion I cannot get to all the quotes and passages on this board) but I try to research and weight what everyone says. I am NOT sitting here thinking I am without improvement. I may sound stubborn and blunt at times but its mainly due to my personality not my being unopen as I research everything asked.

Why can I be comfortable about Salvation? Because I’m a sinner and the only comfort in my life is the cross of Jesus Christ. I make so many errors and mistakes and sin day by day. Before Christ I was a terrible sinner. I was blessed with great circumstances, a great family, a great home, a great school and neighborhood. God gave me intelligence in where I didn’t use it due to laziness. God blessed me with decent jobs and I used the money and drugs and alcohol and partying. God blessed me with family that I would not honor. I squandered my inheritance and was broken just like the first son of that story. It required repentence to come to God who was anxiously awaiting my return. I can be comfortable because I know without God I am and have nothing. All good things come from Him. My comfort comes in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ who is the lamb of God taking away the sins of the world.

Now on the second question. The second son was there and with God but the second son was missing something. He did not comprehend the idea of grace. Now I can’t say for certain on this because the father does say that all he shares with his son is his but I would gather that he shows that without grace one can’t be compassionate and have love. No matter how many rules are followed. The son notice was NOT included in the celebration because he was bitter and resentful. The inheritance was his but he chose to walk away from the feast and banquet. Could this be an analogy for people choosing to walk away from Heaven as we are told there will be feasts and banquets? I don’t know exactly and I humbly leave it at His throne for the Spirit to guide me in understanding.

Garden, I never said this had to do with OSAS. I was asked for an exegesis from Scripture. It was Red that said that it showed we can squander from God.

Speaking of which,

Red; a parable is a story. It is meant so that people could comprehend some of God’s tougher stories. The words are not to be taken 100% literally. Christ talks about his sheep, yet we are not sheep but men. Christ talks about the Kingdom of Heaven as a pearl; surely we cannot think that is but a fingernail in size. In the same way we shouldn’t say that the sons mean the people who came to Christ already, especially considering the group he was talking to (sinners and tax-collectors). Why would he tell them this story if they never came to their reunion with God in the first place?

Also, I took my approach to Scripture only to translate this passage. I was told many times on this board that I cannot properly interpret Scripture without a Magisterium which is why there are many Protestant denominations. Since, translated it using my approach, I would like to see your view supported by your Traditions. Can you show me someone in the Magisterium translating it in the way that you say?
 
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jpete79:
Now on the second question. The second son was there and with God but the second son was missing something. He did not comprehend the idea of grace. Now I can’t say for certain on this because the father does say that all he shares with his son is his but I would gather that he shows that without grace one can’t be compassionate and have love. No matter how many rules are followed. The son notice was NOT included in the celebration because he was bitter and resentful. The inheritance was his but he chose to walk away from the feast and banquet. Could this be an analogy for people choosing to walk away from Heaven as we are told there will be feasts and banquets? I don’t know exactly and I humbly leave it at His throne for the Spirit to guide me in understanding.

Garden, I never said this had to do with OSAS. I was asked for an exegesis from Scripture. It was Red that said that it showed we can squander from God.

Speaking of which,

Red; a parable is a story. It is meant so that people could comprehend some of God’s tougher stories. The words are not to be taken 100% literally. Christ talks about his sheep, yet we are not sheep but men. Christ talks about the Kingdom of Heaven as a pearl; surely we cannot think that is but a fingernail in size. In the same way we shouldn’t say that the sons mean the people who came to Christ already, especially considering the group he was talking to (sinners and tax-collectors). Why would he tell them this story if they never came to their reunion with God in the first place?

Also, I took my approach to Scripture only to translate this passage. I was told many times on this board that I cannot properly interpret Scripture without a Magisterium which is why there are many Protestant denominations. Since, translated it using my approach, I would like to see your view supported by your Traditions. Can you show me someone in the Magisterium translating it in the way that you say?
Thank you. I know exactly what a parable is. I am not quite sure you are making the connection that I attempted to portray. I find it interesting that you are willing to say that the “Father” in the parable is literally “God the Father”, but you balk when I state that the “sons” are supposed to represent the literal sons of God, meaning they have already been justified (this is the Biblical defition of son). Doesn’t seem like you are being too consistent there, Jpete.

Try reading the CCC on justification, or read the documents from the Council of Trent. Maybe it will clarify this a little more for you.

Finally, either way you slice it, one of the sons walked away from the Father. The first walked away, squandered his inheritance, and then repented. He took his place at the banquet. The other was with the Father all along, shared in everything he owned, and walked away in the end, missing the banquet. Again, either way you look at it, someone is forsaking either their inheritance or the “banquet”. This doesn’t support your position at all.
 
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Redbandito:
Thank you. I know exactly what a parable is. I am not quite sure you are making the connection that I attempted to portray. I find it interesting that you are willing to say that the “Father” in the parable is literally “God the Father”, but you balk when I state that the “sons” are supposed to represent the literal sons of God, meaning they have already been justified (this is the Biblical defition of son). Doesn’t seem like you are being too consistent there, Jpete.

Try reading the CCC on justification, or read the documents from the Council of Trent. Maybe it will clarify this a little more for you.

Finally, either way you slice it, one of the sons walked away from the Father. The first walked away, squandered his inheritance, and then repented. He took his place at the banquet. The other was with the Father all along, shared in everything he owned, and walked away in the end, missing the banquet. Again, either way you look at it, someone is forsaking either their inheritance or the “banquet”. This doesn’t support your position at all.
It fully supports my position because my position is this passage doesn’t have to do with OSAS.

The prodigal son loses his inheritance (which we lost in the Garden) and gains the banquet. The older son thinks he has the inheritance because of obedience (just like the religious zealots of Christ’s day who continually ridiculed him for hanging around the sinners, prostitutes, tax-collectors etc) but misses out on the banquet later. Why does he miss out? Because he doesn’t love and he doesn’t ask for repentence.

Now, in all fairness I answered your question as a Protestant using Scripture only. Whether you agree with my assessment or not. I am asking you, where did you get your interpretation from. Is it not Catholic belief that you cannot interpret the Scripture for yourself? Isn’t that the sole reason for many denominations of Protestantism? If that’s the case your interpretation by your own religion MUST be backed up by an official or a member of the Magisterium or it isn’t valid for the same reason that Protestantism isn’t valid (because of self-interpretation).

Please reply to this.
 
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jpete79:
I am asking you, where did you get your interpretation from. Is it not Catholic belief that you cannot interpret the Scripture for yourself? Isn’t that the sole reason for many denominations of Protestantism? If that’s the case your interpretation by your own religion MUST be backed up by an official or a member of the Magisterium or it isn’t valid for the same reason that Protestantism isn’t valid (because of self-interpretation).

Please reply to this.
No, that’s not the position. The Catholic Church does not teach that every verse in Scripture must be first interpreted before we can understand it. The Church teaches that we must read the Scripture through the lens of the Church. Meaning, I understand that the Church teaches salvation by grace through faith working through love. I understand that the Church rejects an abolute Assurance of Salvation but would permit a moral certainty. I understand that the Church rejects OSAS. I understand the Church’s stance of justification and sanctification. Thus, I can understand ALL verses in Scripture through this lens. That does not mean that Benedict XVI must first read Luke 15 to give me his understanding of it, before I can comment. So, no, your request is not valid.
 
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jpete79:
Is it not Catholic belief that you cannot interpret the Scripture for yourself? Isn’t that the sole reason for many denominations of Protestantism? If that’s the case your interpretation by your own religion MUST be backed up by an official or a member of the Magisterium or it isn’t valid for the same reason that Protestantism isn’t valid (because of self-interpretation).The Holy Spirit is the interpreter of scripture. If we have the Holy Spirit’s help, we will interpret scripture correctly, with or without an official member of the Magesterium. The reason for many denominations is that not every interpretation is from the Holy Spirit. I strongly suggest you read what the Catechism says from 109-119 in the section titled, “The Holy Spirit, Interpreter of Scripture”. Here’s a sample of what you can find **111 **But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. “Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written.”
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jpete79:
Why can I be comfortable about Salvation? Because I’m a sinner and the only comfort in my life is the cross of Jesus Christ. I make so many errors and mistakes and sin day by day. Before Christ I was a terrible sinner. I was blessed with great circumstances, a great family, a great home, a great school and neighborhood. God gave me intelligence in where I didn’t use it due to laziness. God blessed me with decent jobs and I used the money and drugs and alcohol and partying. God blessed me with family that I would not honor. I squandered my inheritance and was broken just like the first son of that story. It required repentence to come to God who was anxiously awaiting my return. I can be comfortable because I know without God I am and have nothing. All good things come from Him. My comfort comes in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ who is the lamb of God taking away the sins of the world.

Yes, you do seem to have your own story as a prodigal son. The Father seems to have placed a ring and your finger and a robe over you. Now why don’t you come all the way into His home for the feast He prepared for you? As you know, Jesus Christ “is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, happy are we who are called to His supper.” Do you remember the responce? “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.”
 
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Redbandito:
Kendy, you’re missing the point of the parable. What is the “inheritance” that the son squandered?
Oh, I probably do.I don’t know how I arrived at that interpretation,but that’s just the way I have always read it.

Kendy
 
But we don’t go to Mass to “earn” our salvation. The idea that we can “earn” our salvation by doing whatever (fill in the blank) is a heresy called Pelagianism, which was condemned in the early centuries of the Church.

Maybe that’s not what you mean, but when catholics say faith + works = salvation, that’s what protestants think you mean,which creates all kinds of confusion, and well, you the story.

Kendy
 
Kendy said:
But we don’t go to Mass to “earn” our salvation. The idea that we can “earn” our salvation by doing whatever (fill in the blank) is a heresy called Pelagianism, which was condemned in the early centuries of the Church.

Maybe that’s not what you mean, but when catholics say faith + works = salvation, that’s what protestants think you mean,which creates all kinds of confusion, and well, you the story.

Kendy

To be honest, I don’t think the confusion is an honest one. If Catholics went around saying “works=salvation”, then I would understand. But that’s not what is being said in the formula you just gave. I think it suits some Protestants to maintain that that is what we believe (in spite of all evidence to the contrary), because it gives them a stick to hit the Church with and justify their separation. Note: I’m not saying ALL Protestants—I am referring to those who stubbornly go on pretending that’s what Catholics believe despite loads of explanations to the contrary.
 
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Sherlock:
To be honest, I don’t think the confusion is an honest one. If Catholics went around saying “works=salvation”, then I would understand. But that’s not what is being said in the formula you just gave. I think it suits some Protestants to maintain that that is what we believe (in spite of all evidence to the contrary), because it gives them a stick to hit the Church with and justify their separation. Note: I’m not saying ALL Protestants—I am referring to those who stubbornly go on pretending that’s what Catholics believe despite loads of explanations to the contrary.
Ok,I know I got on your case before but you don’t have to couch “a nothing personal” with every post to me, I am not going to fall apart.I promise :).

Now, I don’t think it serves any use to tell people who don’t understand your position that they are being nefarious in that misunderstanding. You have to imagine that people would have to pretty silly and devious to go around pretending something that they know is not true for the sake of causing strive. I was raised catholic and I was under the impression that that was the church’s position.

Yes, some people do want to stick it to the church, but only because they believe that the RCC teaches this. If it wasn’t for this, they would have no other reasons for sticking it to the church since for protestants this is the most important issue. Anyway, I spent the first sixteen years of my life in the church, including going to catholic elementary schools, and for the most part, I had no idea why I was doing the things I was being asked to do. Recently, I spoke to a bunch of catholic teenagers and I was surprised by how little they understood about the church. If people in the church don’t always understand what the church teaches, it should be no surprise that there are many outside of the church who don’t as well.

Kendy
 
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Kendy:
Oh, I probably do.I don’t know how I arrived at that interpretation,but that’s just the way I have always read it.

Kendy
No big deal. Anyway, I really was hoping you would answer this question. What is the inheritance?
 
Kendy said:
But we don’t go to Mass to “earn” our salvation. The idea that we can “earn” our salvation by doing whatever (fill in the blank) is a heresy called Pelagianism, which was condemned in the early centuries of the Church.

Maybe that’s not what you mean, but when catholics say faith + works = salvation, that’s what protestants think you mean,which creates all kinds of confusion, and well, you the story.

Kendy

So, maybe it’s on Protestants to actually seek to understand what Catholics mean when they say that, rather than just condemning them. The Reformers were certainly not as far away in understanding from the Church as modern day Evangelicals.
 
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Kendy:
Ok,I know I got on your case before but you don’t have to couch “a nothing personal” with every post to me, I am not going to fall apart.I promise :).

Now, I don’t think it serves any use to tell people who don’t understand your position that they are being nefarious in that misunderstanding. You have to imagine that people would have to pretty silly and devious to go around pretending something that they know is not true for the sake of causing strive. I was raised catholic and I was under the impression that that was the church’s position.

Yes, some people do want to stick it to the church, but only because they believe that the RCC teaches this. If it wasn’t for this, they would have no other reasons for sticking it to the church since for protestants this is the most important issue. Anyway, I spent the first sixteen years of my life in the church, including going to catholic elementary schools, and for the most part, I had no idea why I was doing the things I was being asked to do. Recently, I spoke to a bunch of catholic teenagers and I was surprised by how little they understood about the church. If people in the church don’t always understand what the church teaches, it should be no surprise that there are many outside of the church who don’t as well.

Kendy
True, but that goes both ways.
 
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Kendy:
If all people in the church don’t always understand what the church teaches, it should be no surprise that there are many outside of the church who don’t as well.
Too true. If people inside the Church knew what the Church teaches (and why), few would leave and many more would convert.

From reading your posts and jpete’s post, I definately get the impression that while you were both Catholic you misunderstood or were mislead about what the Church actually teaches. And sadly that is far too common.
 
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jpete79:
It fully supports my position because my position is this passage doesn’t have to do with OSAS.

The prodigal son loses his inheritance (which we lost in the Garden) and gains the banquet. The older son thinks he has the inheritance because of obedience (just like the religious zealots of Christ’s day who continually ridiculed him for hanging around the sinners, prostitutes, tax-collectors etc) but misses out on the banquet later. Why does he miss out? Because he doesn’t love and he doesn’t ask for repentence.
Okay JPete, upon pondering this explanation a little bit, I agree that this is a plausible valid interpretation of this parable. I did not understand completely what you were trying to get across in your first post, but this cleared up your position a little more. In Eden, Adam and Eve were in a state of sanctifying grace (i.e. God’s own divine nature and life). Thus, when they sinned, they did lose that.

I now have one last question for you. What is the inheritance of what he speaks? Adam and Eve did not have an “inheritance” as in Heaven (at least not yet). Thus, what inheritance did they lose? They lost sonship, but what inheritance did they lose with sonship? Clarify that for me, and I will at least be able to say that your exegesis is plausible (albeit I will still lean toward mine in light of the rest of the NT and what justification is). If you cannot make a good case for what the “inheritance” was that Adam and Eve lost, you must then concede that your understanding is not valid. Deal?
 
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