Justification by Faith?

[Kendy]

Ok gang,

I started a new thread called regeneration/Born Again. Hopefully we can take the conversation there since it keeps coming up. I am personally pretty satisfied with the work we have done on justification faith/works, but I think to move further… maybe deal with OSAS, we need to talk about being born again. Hope you agree and hope you will join me.

Kendy

 

[wpr]

**QUOTE=jpete79]Hey Red:

Also, I’ll show you how I interpret to show you that I don’t read with any type of goggles but I use the text literally.**

Hello Jpete,

I enjoyed your interpretation. Taking the prodigal son and making him “sinners” in general, I believe is the Gospel message ringing true to us today.

We should be mindfull that Christ, at the time he spoke the parable, was speaking only to Jews. He sent the Apostles out in Mt 10:5~6. The Caananite woman Mt 15:21~28. The Samaritan woman at the well John 4. There are others. From Acts, even after Pentecost, we understand the Apostles still did not understand that they were to give the Gospel message to Gentiles until Peter’s dream and the Baptism of the Centurian.

The point? Knowing the context does help us interpret other Scriptures more pointedly. Christ taught in parables to the Jews because the Jews did not understand the “mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven” (Mt 13:10~15). Parables were intended to open these mysteries to them. So it is wise to keep in mind primarily “what did the parable mean to the Jews at the time”. (not to the exclusion of meaning to us however)

For you to consider…
Paul (and James) use Abraham as an example of the faith that God requires of us. In a nut shell, Paul (and James) teach us that Abraham trusted in God so completely that he served him rightiously (Paul says he was justified in Rms). His faith endured even to obey God and sacrifice his son Isaac.

The point (or rather the Apostle Paul’s point)? All works of the Law if done with a mind to obligate God are worthless in His sight. Rather our works are to be done with faith like Abraham’s! A faith that puts our trust in God. We who beleive are of the Spirit (me and you, I pray, my brother). We put away the flesh. Romans is rich!

Consider Abraham; God did not irrevocably justify him becuase he had faith back in Genesis 12. How can this be if God continued to test him even to the point of asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac so many years later? Why would Paul use Abraham as his example of faith if he taught OSAS when he knew the Jews know the story? OSAS is contrary to the story of Abraham.

I still maintain (with charity) that you do read Scripture with a OSAS lens (goggles). You have to in order to ignore the clear Scripture that tells you one can fall from grace.

For example Romans 8:37~39 does not tell you “OSAS”. It is telling you that no outside force can separate you from God. It says nothing that prevents you from separating yourself from God through mortal sin or rejection of faith in the Gospel.

Jpete, faith alone cannot save you. But what do I mean by “faith alone”? I mean exactly what the Reformers suggested and what todays Evangelical Pastors teach. The belief that God instantly imputes irrevocable justification on any person who professes that Christ is his saviour. This is not biblical!

This obediance to the “Lordship of Christ” (I see the buzz word) seems to answer the obvious Catholic objection that a Christain cannot continue in a life of profligate debauchery (to exaggerate). However, this “obediance to the Lordship” is only a patch for that one obvious objection. It does not answer the Scripture that one can fall from Grace.

Furthermore, OSAS is still counter to the clear bibilical teaching that one will stand before God and be judged by what he/she has done in terms of salvation, NOT simply to only determine the believers place in Heaven as OSAS and “obediance to the Lordship of Christ” theology demands.

Patch after patch is necessary to support “Faith alone” and it’s direct partner “OSAS”. As I said. You have to twist the Scripture like a pretzel to make it work.

Jpete, all in all, as a Catholic Christian, I am at peace with God. I do not need to lead my life from day to day wondering if I will be saved. However, I do not need OSAS to be confident. I do need to be ever mindfull of Christ’s calling in everything I do. I fail often, yet I am taught to be mindfull, repentant, and discern my failings. Thank God for his grace!

Why do I write these messages? Certainly not to antagonize you. Although I feel I owe you an apology for calling one of your Scriptural references weak. I believe as Christians we need to strive to be of one mind. The Apostles teach us this as Christ taught them. Paul’s words ring in my ear everytime I read them. Rm 16:17, 1 Cor 1:10~17, 1 Cor 10:14~17.

 

[jpete79]

Hey Guys:

Happy New Year!!!

I’m sorry I haven’t been around, I’ve been busy and didn’t have internet access too often.

How’s everyone doing?

Red:

First, I’ll address the inheritance that was lost. In the first 2 Chapters of the Bible we see God creating everything. We see Adam and Eve in the Garden which is Paradise. In the last 2 Chapters we see God make everything new. (Whether Canon was established or not earlier doesn’t interfere with the awesome divine providence of the symmetry of the Bible). What is the inheritance that was squandered? Well, if we put ourselves back into Christ’s day, we realize he uses parables to speak so simple minds can comprehend. What is a more complex topic than eternity? The inheritance that was squandered was the right to walk with God and to live in Paradise.

I want to explain something I said earlier though. I don’t have much time today on this site but I realized something. I said I was certain that if I were to pass today that I would enter God’s realm. I still say that. Now, I believe you said earlier there is a difference between assurance of Salvation and once saved always saved but to me there isn’t because I try to live every moment as if Christ was returning today. I admit I screw up from time to time royally but because I live everyday by the moment, I can be assured of Salvation. Does that make sense? But I am going to try to take away the lens of OSAS (not because I don’t believe in it, obviously I do but to try an experiment). I want to see how I handle an addictive sin in my life if that viewpoint is no longer there. I have tried and tried to get rid of the sin and repent but it is really hard, I just want to see how this view helps me handle my sinful nature. Just as an experiment though!!!

WPR:

God Bless you this New Year. As far as faith alone, I think that Luther may have believed this (obviously) but when it comes to just faith and acceptance it is very complex. It depends on what faith means. Does it mean faithful submission and obedience to the Lord? Turning your life over to him? Or does it mean just saying I love Christ? Your deeds are the fruit to your faith but not the merit to gain Salvation. I don’t believe the deeds spontaneously combust but I believe that after acceptance the Spirit guides and convicts us to do what is right and wrong (or at least gives us a knowledge of that in light of Heaven–we choose which to do after).

I also thank you for your apology, I hope one day I can show the same humility in my mistakes when I offend another.

I don’t think I am that far off your viewpoints. I think my semantics are an issue. I should just say once saved… Mainly I should say that because again I try to live as if today will be my last and therefore I can’t lose light of eternity. It’s on my mind day after day and that is why I don’t think I will ever lose my Salvation (maybe I see things differently from others and that is why). I do believe that in my case and my life God has clearly stamped me and assisted me along my pathway. I believe that after I accepted Him that even though I could do wrong my heart was changed for eternity. Could I just be seeing how He worked in my life and applying it to everyone? Possibly. But either way I am in awe of the divine providence of my Lord.

Again everyone God Bless.

 

[wpr]

I don’t think I am that far off your viewpoints. I think my semantics are an issue. I should just say once saved… Mainly I should say that because again I try to live as if today will be my last and therefore I can’t lose light of eternity. It’s on my mind day after day and that is why I don’t think I will ever lose my Salvation (maybe I see things differently from others and that is why). I do believe that in my case and my life God has clearly stamped me and assisted me along my pathway. I believe that after I accepted Him that even though I could do wrong my heart was changed for eternity. Could I just be seeing how He worked in my life and applying it to everyone? Possibly. But either way I am in awe of the divine providence of my Lord.

Hello Jpete,

As I understand your view of OSAS explained above, I think we are not far from agreement.

I beleive it is helpfull to understand the definition as Calvin and other prominent Reformers (even most Evangelical Theologins to this day) understand and teach the concept. This may reveal my sincere objection. (one that you may actually share)

The issue is forensic imputed irrevocable justification. That means, as a one time event, God declares the sinner “just” and he/she is therefore “saved” (past tense). Works are totally divorced from salvation and are said to be only the fruit of “true faith” or some other concept is introduced like “obediance to the Lordship of Christ”. Thus it is said “once you are saved you cannot fall”. Is this really true?

The view begs several questions.

1. What if someone professing faith and indeed does show it’s fruit in their life but eventually rejects the Gospel (for example becomes Buddhist or Muslim). The Protestant reply is that that person never truely “beleived” and thus never recieved the imputed justification.
2. What if someone commits horrible crimes and is not repentant? As an example, I hold that your Evangelical Pastor would agree a person who professed “faith”, but later committed murder AND was not repentant, would also be like the person who switched to Islam (was never a true beleiver). Thus did not receive imputed rightiousness.
3. What if someone does not show the “fruit” of faith and does not live a life “loving one’s neighbor”. Well, again, the person is said to never have truely “beleived” and thus salvation was not imputed upon them by God (past tense).
4. Is justification by forensic imputation biblical? (I say no)

So all this begs the question, and my objection. How does anyone who believes in OSAS know that they will not be retroactively said to be “un-imputed” anymore than a Catholic believes he/she may fall from grace? It’s a comparitive question, so if you care to reply, please keep in mind I want to know how you are more sure than me of your salvation.

So, how is it that OSAS theology is reassuring compared to Catholic teaching? Basically, it is not. I stumble and fumble because I am not a great apologist, but this is the firm conclusion I made in my journey to the Catholic Church. Furthermore, Catholic teaching does not have to ignore those 60 Scriptural passages or explain them by pretzelology. We can just take them at face value.

So why should you come home to the Catholic Church? Frankly, I do not know the answer. How can I? I would ask you to pray and ask for the Spirit to guide you.

For me, reading the Scriptures and the Catholic Catechism and comparing the teachings of the Lutheran Church to that of the Catholic Church was revealing. Honestly, I found the Catholic teaching more intellectual and balanced. (especially predestination and free will)

Further, I read the writings of the Early Church Fathers (available in a 3 volume set on Catholic Answers and a great tool for any Christian, Catholic or otherwise). I saw Catholic teaching in those writings. I saw that the true presence of Christ in the Lord’s Supper was believed by early Christians. I read about Apostolic Succession in action by men who walked with the Apostles. I read vigorous defenses of the divine and human nature of Christ, a doctrine we both hold as true.

So, if you are willing, let’s dialogue more on any issue. I admire your zeal for Christ (how can I not). I’m jealous in a sense that I want all who profess such sincere belief to be of one loaf.

 

[jpete79]

wpr:

Hello Jpete,

As I understand your view of OSAS explained above, I think we are not far from agreement.

I beleive it is helpfull to understand the definition as Calvin and other prominent Reformers (even most Evangelical Theologins to this day) understand and teach the concept. This may reveal my sincere objection. (one that you may actually share)

The issue is forensic imputed irrevocable justification. That means, as a one time event, God declares the sinner “just” and he/she is therefore “saved” (past tense). Works are totally divorced from salvation and are said to be only the fruit of “true faith” or some other concept is introduced like “obediance to the Lordship of Christ”. Thus it is said “once you are saved you cannot fall”. Is this really true?

The view begs several questions.

1. What if someone professing faith and indeed does show it’s fruit in their life but eventually rejects the Gospel (for example becomes Buddhist or Muslim). The Protestant reply is that that person never truely “beleived” and thus never recieved the imputed justification.
2. What if someone commits horrible crimes and is not repentant? As an example, I hold that your Evangelical Pastor would agree a person who professed “faith”, but later committed murder AND was not repentant, would also be like the person who switched to Islam (was never a true beleiver). Thus did not receive imputed rightiousness.
3. What if someone does not show the “fruit” of faith and does not live a life “loving one’s neighbor”. Well, again, the person is said to never have truely “beleived” and thus salvation was not imputed upon them by God (past tense).
4. Is justification by forensic imputation biblical? (I say no)

So all this begs the question, and my objection. How does anyone who believes in OSAS know that they will not be retroactively said to be “un-imputed” anymore than a Catholic believes he/she may fall from grace? It’s a comparitive question, so if you care to reply, please keep in mind I want to know how you are more sure than me of your salvation.

So, how is it that OSAS theology is reassuring compared to Catholic teaching? Basically, it is not. I stumble and fumble because I am not a great apologist, but this is the firm conclusion I made in my journey to the Catholic Church. Furthermore, Catholic teaching does not have to ignore those 60 Scriptural passages or explain them by pretzelology. We can just take them at face value.

So why should you come home to the Catholic Church? Frankly, I do not know the answer. How can I? I would ask you to pray and ask for the Spirit to guide you.

For me, reading the Scriptures and the Catholic Catechism and comparing the teachings of the Lutheran Church to that of the Catholic Church was revealing. Honestly, I found the Catholic teaching more intellectual and balanced. (especially predestination and free will)

Further, I read the writings of the Early Church Fathers (available in a 3 volume set on Catholic Answers and a great tool for any Christian, Catholic or otherwise). I saw Catholic teaching in those writings. I saw that the true presence of Christ in the Lord’s Supper was believed by early Christians. I read about Apostolic Succession in action by men who walked with the Apostles. I read vigorous defenses of the divine and human nature of Christ, a doctrine we both hold as true.

So, if you are willing, let’s dialogue more on any issue. I admire your zeal for Christ (how can I not). I’m jealous in a sense that I want all who profess such sincere belief to be of one loaf.

WPR:

My belief comes from the sealing of the Spirit. We are sealed until the day of redemption.

I have said this before and I’ll say it again. The problem with debating once saved always saved is that only God can search and know our hearts. Only God knew what Judas’ heart was like (when he decided to walk alongside Christ) and only God knew what Peter’s heart was like (when he decided to deny Christ).

Unfortunately the idea of once saved always saved (both viewpoints of it) relies on something that caused the first sin. It relies on people playing God. That was the trick the serpent played in the Garden. See we by playing with this notion look at people in the past and say if a Christian became a Muslim or if a Christian became a Jew. This is us playing God with people that have done that and we cannot judge but wait to see who’s in Heaven when we get there.

Can I ask you a question totally off topic…what is your view on Missions and invincible ignorance?

 

[wpr]

Can I ask you a question totally off topic…what is your view on Missions and invincible ignorance?

Honestly, I think you completely missed my point about OSAS. It’s not about Catholics or Protestants judging people here on earth. It has no use in theology if you tell me you cannot prove OSAS until we die. It rather proves my point.

Even so, your Protestant brothers Sandusky and Bene plead otherwise. They look to the Scriptures to prove their position and they are sticking to their guns (so to speak).

In my view faith alone w/ OSAS requires that you take the whole issue of predestination and lack of free will to an extreme. The Regeneration Thread is revealing. Your case is being pleaded by Bene and Sandusky on that thread. Thier back door is defining “believers” as the predestined elect of God.

I just wonder how you know right now you among the elect of God? If you tell me you cannot know until you die, then why are you sure and not just confident (as I am)?

You asked me once whether I would like it better if I beleived my salvation was secured (somethin like that). I understood you beleived your salvation is secureand is irrevocable by God. That’s what OSAS is! I think that is a false sense of security.

Try reading Dave’s explanation Post 197 on the Regeneration Thread started by Kendy. That thread has become a lively deep debate on this issue.

As for invincable ignorance. I do not presume to know to who God may chose to show His mercy. (This ironically includes those who may beleive they have imputed irrevocable salvation “OSAS”) However, I do prefer the front door to Heaven opened by our Saviour. Does that suffice?

 

[gardenswithkids]

jpete79:

First, I’ll address the inheritance that was lost. In the first 2 Chapters of the Bible we see God creating everything. We see Adam and Eve in the Garden which is Paradise. In the last 2 Chapters we see God make everything new. …What is the inheritance that was squandered? Well, if we put ourselves back into Christ’s day, we realize he uses parables to speak so simple minds can comprehend. What is a more complex topic than eternity? The inheritance that was squandered was the right to walk with God and to live in Paradise

I thought that was what you were saying earler, and that’s why I asked about the older brother, (whom you said represented the pharisees.) Didn’t they also loose the right to walk with God and live in paradise? How does that reconcile to your interpretation?

jpete79:

But I am going to try to take away the lens of OSAS (not because I don’t believe in it, obviously I do but to try an experiment). I want to see how I handle an addictive sin in my life if that viewpoint is no longer there. I have tried and tried to get rid of the sin and repent but it is really hard, I just want to see how this view helps me handle my sinful nature. Just as an experiment though!!!

Well let us know how this experiment goes. Remember when Jesus saves us from our sin, sometimes that means the sins we’ve already committed, and sometimes He saves us from commiting the sin in the first place. I pray He gives you the grace to overcome whatever you struggle with.

God bless you. And Happy New Year.

 

[x4us]

As St. Paul so clearly said in I Corinthians 13, There abides three things, faith hope and love and the greatest of these is . . . . . faith?! No - the greatest of these is love - so there must be something greater than faith - and if there is something greater than faith, then we simply can’t be justified by faith alone.

 

[christaddict]

Kendy:

Hehe…Love ya too.

Merry Christmas.

Hey kendy, I’m back here!!!

And, I see a very impressive line of thought over here, and also your ‘Regeneration’ thread.

During the holidays, I had a good spiritual retreat, spent good time in silent prayer in prepartion for the year. And, my theme for this year is ‘Shield of Faith’, which is intense learning and understanding of the Catholic faith.

And, this forum doesn’t put me down. I’m getting a great deal from all you folks. Greetings to everyone.

 

[jpete79]

wpr:
Honestly, I think you completely missed my point about OSAS. It’s not about Catholics or Protestants judging people here on earth. It has no use in theology if you tell me you cannot prove OSAS until we die. It rather proves my point.

Even so, your Protestant brothers Sandusky and Bene plead otherwise. They look to the Scriptures to prove their position and they are sticking to their guns (so to speak).

In my view faith alone w/ OSAS requires that you take the whole issue of predestination and lack of free will to an extreme. The Regeneration Thread is revealing. Your case is being pleaded by Bene and Sandusky on that thread. Thier back door is defining “believers” as the predestined elect of God.

I just wonder how you know right now you among the elect of God? If you tell me you cannot know until you die, then why are you sure and not just confident (as I am)?

You asked me once whether I would like it better if I beleived my salvation was secured (somethin like that). I understood you beleived your salvation is secureand is irrevocable by God. That’s what OSAS is! I think that is a false sense of security.

Try reading Dave’s explanation Post 197 on the Regeneration Thread started by Kendy. That thread has become a lively deep debate on this issue.

As for invincable ignorance. I do not presume to know to who God may chose to show His mercy. (This ironically includes those who may beleive they have imputed irrevocable salvation “OSAS”) However, I do prefer the front door to Heaven opened by our Saviour. Does that suffice?

Hey WPR:

I may have missed your point but I think you also missed mine. I said this earlier to Kendy and you may or may not agree.

Whether confident or “sure” of Salvation the issue isn’t that we have the belief. I can’t be sure of this but I don’t think when we are before the throne of judgment that Christ is going to go through our theology belief by belief. He will say what did you do…

Whether I believe that Salvation is irrevocable, I really don’t think will matter to Him, unless I say, “since I am saved, I don’t have to do a darned thing from here on out.” From the other side of the story, how can you present the word of God and work towards Missions if we can never even be sure of our own Salvation?

I believe in OSAS but I don’t give myself a free-pass from Christ’s commands because of it. I am not saying well I am assured of my Salvation so I can live in my little bubble doing whatever I want. I say well I am sure of my Salvation and I want others to know Christ as well so they may one day receive that gift.

From the other side of the story you say you are confident. If you are that’s great but its not just the confidence it’s the actions that abound from that confidence in building up the community of God through Missions, Evangelism, etc.

Again I don’t think we are going to be asked, “did you believe in once saved always saved?” Instead we will be asked, “what did you do for the least of these.” What we believe can be right or wrong as can what stems from either belief.

 

[jpete79]

x4us:

As St. Paul so clearly said in I Corinthians 13, There abides three things, faith hope and love and the greatest of these is . . . . . faith?! No - the greatest of these is love - so there must be something greater than faith - and if there is something greater than faith, then we simply can’t be justified by faith alone.

I like that. How about by love alone

 

[Redbandito]

jpete79:

I like that. How about by love alone

LOL! Good stuff Jim!

 

[Kendy]

Welcome back

Kendy

christaddict:

Hey kendy, I’m back here!!!

And, I see a very impressive line of thought over here, and also your ‘Regeneration’ thread.

During the holidays, I had a good spiritual retreat, spent good time in silent prayer in prepartion for the year. And, my theme for this year is ‘Shield of Faith’, which is intense learning and understanding of the Catholic faith.

And, this forum doesn’t put me down. I’m getting a great deal from all you folks. Greetings to everyone.

 

[wpr]

I may have missed your point but I think you also missed mine. I said this earlier to Kendy and you may or may not agree.

It’s quite possible I missed your point. I do think we agree on many points, so all is not lost.

Whether confident or “sure” of Salvation the issue isn’t that we have the belief. I can’t be sure of this but I don’t think when we are before the throne of judgment that Christ is going to go through our theology belief by belief. He will say what did you do…

I hear what you are saying and I don’t totally disagree. However, I fear more will be lost due to a false sense of security

Whether I believe that Salvation is irrevocable, I really don’t think will matter to Him, unless I say, “since I am saved, I don’t have to do a darned thing from here on out.” From the other side of the story, how can you present the word of God and work towards Missions if we can never even be sure of our own Salvation?

The Gospel was taught for 1500 years before anyone had ever proposed OSAS theology (remember, OSAS is one time forensic imputed rightiousness).

I believe in OSAS but I don’t give myself a free-pass from Christ’s commands because of it. I am not saying well I am assured of my Salvation so I can live in my little bubble doing whatever I want. I say well I am sure of my Salvation and I want others to know Christ as well so they may one day receive that gift.

You don’t give yourself a free pass, but others will. How can you tell others their salvation is irrevocable? Are you God? Note, I did not say God’s promise is irrevocable. How can you teach OSAS to others when you have no way of knowing their heart?

Will you also tell them if they eventually reject Christ that you will consider that they “never truely beleived”?

Why not start with the truth? That is, if you accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour and live your life as he called us to live as best we can as repentant sinners, then we can be confident that He will not withhold his mercy.

From the other side of the story you say you are confident. If you are that’s great but its not just the confidence it’s the actions that abound from that confidence in building up the community of God through Missions, Evangelism, etc.

Amen!

Again I don’t think we are going to be asked, “did you believe in once saved always saved?” Instead we will be asked, “what did you do for the least of these.” What we believe can be right or wrong as can what stems from either belief.

Amen again! I beleive we may be surprised by who we find in heaven.

 

[jpete79]

wpr:

It’s quite possible I missed your point. I do think we agree on many points, so all is not lost.

I hear what you are saying and I don’t totally disagree. However, I fear more will be lost due to a false sense of security

The Gospel was taught for 1500 years before anyone had ever proposed OSAS theology (remember, OSAS is one time forensic imputed rightiousness).

You don’t give yourself a free pass, but others will. How can you tell others their salvation is irrevocable? Are you God? Note, I did not say God’s promise is irrevocable. How can you teach OSAS to others when you have no way of knowing their heart?

Will you also tell them if they eventually reject Christ that you will consider that they “never truely beleived”?

Why not start with the truth? That is, if you accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour and live your life as he called us to live as best we can as repentant sinners, then we can be confident that He will not withhold his mercy.

Amen!

Amen again! I beleive we may be surprised by who we find in heaven.

WPR:

You actually hit the nail on the head. There are certain topics that I research on my own and I read authors on but I DON’T teach to others. I have my stem of beliefs due to what I’ve read and looked up, if others ask me questions I don’t refuse and I admit to occassionally being brash and chiming in when I shouldn’t (alright, I admit to doing that ALOT more than occassionally )

Some of the topics that I do this with are: OSAS, predestination (let’s not go there), end-times topics (let’s REALLY not go there), and a few others here and there.

The reason I do this is there is a centrality that gets missed when we argue all the points of theology with each other and that centrality is the Cross of Christ. We debate and argue points like those earlier topics when there are others out there who have yet to be introduced to our Lord and Savior in the ways we have. These aforementioned topics don’t build up but most of the times rip apart. I can tell you that many protestant denominations have split due to interpretations of Revelation alone.

What I am saying is that Christ instructed us with simple commands about spreading the Gospel through love. What matters is Christ, not what we see as being the whore or beast of Revelation (and be assured I don’t feel that it is the Catholic Church, for all I know it can come from one of our 10,000 denominations over here )

By trying to figure out the meaning of everything else, I think we lost the meaning of Christianity in many cases and that is the saving grace that is received because of the blood that Jesus Christ spilled on OUR behalf (Catholics and Protestants alike).

Well that’s all I got for now and if this sounds a little like ranting, sometimes I start typing and can’t stop.

God Bless,
Jim

 

[wpr]

[By trying to figure out the meaning of everything else, I think we lost the meaning of Christianity in many cases and that is the saving grace that is received because of the blood that Jesus Christ spilled on OUR behalf (Catholics and Protestants alike).

Well that’s all I got for now and if this sounds a little like ranting, sometimes I start typing and can’t stop.

God Bless,
Jim

I hear you. I don;t disagree. I do consider you a brother in Christ.

I guess I may have a little higher tolerance for debate. It does not bother me to mix it up a bit. I just have to practice at doing it charitably.

I have a desire for unity in the Gospel. I beleive we, as Chritians, do not do the good news service by bickering among each other. BUT, that does not mean we can or should water down the Truth.

One Body, One Baptism! Amen!
[/quote]

 

[pangit]

hi, just share too;

We are not SAVE BY FAITH AND BY WORKS but BY GRACE.

If we ACCEPT / BELIEVE IN CHRIST we must ACCEPT the WHOLE HIM/ CHRIST. he is the head while HIS BODY IS HIS CHURCH. if we believe the head and do not accept his body.

our Faith is nothing. not the whole christ is in you.