Justification by works and not by faith alone: James bluntly says it

[Darryl_B]

I’m sorry Darryl.
I don’t get it !

You mean sinning is like committing adultery?

GG

Your analogy was

If my husband and I have an argument, are we divorced?

The analogy is not correct. Having a spat often seems trivial. On the surface it would therefore appear the relationship has not been impacted. I believe it has been and must be reconciled.

Mortal sin is like committing adultery in a marriage. The relationship becomes one of separation. >>Faith-ful?<< Divorce is just a legal civil action where reconciliation is not sought after and never will be. Mortal sin is breaking a bond, a state of separation of souls. Reconciliation is absolutely necessary to restore the relationship.

Venial sins also injures the relationship. The relationship becomes less effectual, the unity is affected.

Being in a state of grace is something that can be lost.

THIS is a big difference between Catholicism and Protestantism.
WHAT is it that makes you not be in a state of grace?

I hope this answers your question, and that the way I explain it is faithful to Catholic teaching.

 

[GodsGrace154]

Your analogy was

The analogy is not correct. Having a spat often seems trivial. On the surface it would therefore appear the relationship has not been impacted. I believe it has been and must be reconciled.

Mortal sin is like committing adultery in a marriage. The relationship becomes one of separation. >>Faith-ful?<< Divorce is just a legal civil action where reconciliation is not sought after and never will be. Mortal sin is breaking a bond, a state of separation of souls. Reconciliation is absolutely necessary to restore the relationship.

Venial sins also injures the relationship. The relationship becomes less effectual, the unity is affected.

I hope this answers your question, and that the way I explain it is faithful to Catholic teaching.

Okay, I see. You’re right. Even having a spat will affect a relationship - but one does reconcile.

This would be sin. Any sin. Venial or Mortal. As you must know, gradation of sin does not exist in Protestant doctrine. Sin is sin. Missing the Mark. Failing in some way to please God or to follow His rules, commandments, moral teachings, etc.

So here’s what would cause a divorce:

A conscious decision to abandon God. To leave His loving care, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. For example; 2 Peter 2:20-22

Sin will affect one’s spiritual life, but he will still be guarded and protected by the Lord’s sacrifice and confession must be made.

I think this is a big difference.

GG

 

[guanophore]

Okay, I see.  You're right.  Even having a spat will affect a relationship - but one does reconcile.

This would be sin. Any sin. Venial or Mortal. As you must know, gradation of sin does not exist in Protestant doctrine. Sin is sin. Missing the Mark. Failing in some way to please God or to follow His rules, commandments, moral teachings, etc.

How do you reconcile this with Scripture, which says the opposite?

Sin will affect one’s spiritual life, but he will still be guarded and protected by the Lord’s sacrifice and confession must be made. GG

And if no confession is made?

 

[GodsGrace154]

How do you reconcile this with Scripture, which says the opposite?

And if no confession is made?

Where does it say the opposite?

1 John 1:7-9
1 John 2:1
Romans 3:23
1 Corinthians 15:57
Romans 8.1

If no confession is made: God knows the heart, He knows if you’re sorry or not (in case of death for instance). However, we should confess our sins.

GG

 

[JonNC]

Okay, I see. You’re right. Even having a spat will affect a relationship - but one does reconcile.

This would be sin. Any sin. Venial or Mortal. As you must know, gradation of sin does not exist in** Protestant doctrine**. Sin is sin. Missing the Mark. Failing in some way to please God or to follow His rules, commandments, moral teachings, etc.

So here’s what would cause a divorce:

A conscious decision to abandon God. To leave His loving care, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. For example; 2 Peter 2:20-22

Sin will affect one’s spiritual life, but he will still be guarded and protected by the Lord’s sacrifice and confession must be made.

I think this is a big difference.

GG

GG,
You may have mentioned it before, but what faith tradition are you a member of? It always makes me nervous when I hear the term “protestant doctrine”, mainly because protestant itself in neither a doctrine nor a faith tradition.

Jon

 

[LatinRight]

Of course we are, and He will not lose any the Father has given Him, and no one can snatch us from His hand. But we can JUMP OUT.

Blessings Guanophore,

You have stated: We can JUMP OUT from the hands of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The following Catholic teaching clearly shows you the results, what would happen if someone would JUMP OUT.

I believe Guonophore when you will see what that JUMP would cause, you will reconsider your above statement.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

"Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.

Furthermore, the very nature of omniscience demands that not only the abstract number

of the elect, but also the individuals with their names and their entire career on earth,

should be present before the Divine mind from all eternity." End quote Emphasize added.

AskACatholic.com

What is Catholic view on predestination?

This is an often confusing and difficult subject to address.

The bottom line is that the Catholic Church does teach that the ELECT ARE PREDESTINED, while concomitantly, free will is respected so that God is not involved with coercion.

The best way to explain this is that God has foreknowledge of ALL those that would RESPOND to his gift of self.

While He wills all to be saved (cf. 1 Timothy 2:3), NOT ALL accept Him (also, John 1:11-12).

In addition to this foreknowledge, God also has provided **ALL THE GRACE NECESSARY **for those to be saved.

In this way, He has DETERMINED their salvation: by INSURING it.

So, in the end, God not only knows who will be saved, He “saw to it” that they were saved, and respected the free will of those who were not. End quote. Emphasize added.

**PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006

Your Excellency:

For quite some time, a considerable number of Bishops, Judicial Vicars and others working in the field of canon law have been posing to this Pontifical Council questions and requests for clarification concerning the so-called actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica mentioned in canons 1086, § 1, 1117 and 1124 of the Code of Canon Law. …

(Paragraph 7 sums up the other six paragraphs.)

**7. It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**.

Faithfully yours in the Lord,

Julián Card. Herranz President

Bruno Bertagna Secretary

This notification was approved by the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI, who directed that it be transmitted to all Presidents of Episcopal Conferences. End quote. Emphasize and in the bracket is added.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

The message in paragraph 7 is very clear.

Baptism into the Body of Christ is a PERMANET BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact of DEFECTION and COULD NOT be lost, because God only baptize His elect predestined to heaven into the Body of Christ.

If would be lost even one Christian given to Christ, that would destroy God’s omniscience.

So, we even could say, “Once in the Body of Christ Always in the Body of Christ.”

God does not baptize the reprobates into the Body of Christ whose names, for their rejection of God and His grace, taken out from the Book of Life when it is completed before the foundation of the world.

After completion, the Book of Life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

**IN HARMONY **WITTH THE ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA, THE SRIPTURE ALSO STATES

Rom.8:29-30; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For those whom He foreknew He also PREDESTINED … And those whom He predestined He also CALLED;

Eph.2:8;
“For by grace you have been saved … it is the GIFT of God.”

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.”

The above quotes are conclusive proof that no one will JUMP OUT from the hands of Christ.

I’m not proud of it, but I have to admit:
In the past I have used many Bible verses for attempt to prove, by using our free will we can JUMP OUT from the hands of Christ.

At that time I didn’t know:
The very nature of omniscience demands that, our names, our career on earth includes our free will is present before the Divine mind from all eternity.”

God don’t have to wait until we have the will to JUMP, our will is present before the Divine mind from all eternity and He has COMPLETED the Book of Life and He has MADE His predestination ACCORDINLY before the foundation of the world.

The Book of Life alone is a conclusive proof that no one will JUMP OUT from the hands of Christ.

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

“God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the

beautiful figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a

list which contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO

ERASURES.” End quote Emphasize added.

You see Guanophore, even if one Christian would JUMP OUT from the hands of Christ in all Christian history, that would destroy God’s omniscience.

We can be sure that will never happen!

I believe the following warning completes the post.

AN IMPORTANT WARNING FOR ALL OF US! – 1 Cor.11:27;

God doesn’t want that the reprobates whose names have been taken out from the Book of life before the foundation of the world to participate in the Eucharist.

We all should know our standing before we partake in the Eucharist!

So, in 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND:

2 Cor.13:5-6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. TEST YOURSELVES.

Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

I hope **YOU WILL FIND OUT **that we have not failed. End quote. Emphasize added.

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Where does it say the opposite?

1 John 1:7-9
1 John 2:1
Romans 3:23
1 Corinthians 15:57
Romans 8.1

If no confession is made: God knows the heart, He knows if you’re sorry or not (in case of death for instance). However, we should confess our sins.

GG

How do you get past the fact that Christ instituted a specific method of confession for believers?

John 20: 19-23

Jesus Appears to the Disciples
19
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
20
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
21
[Jesus] said to them again “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23
Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

This is clearly the institution of an authoritative capacity. Why would Christ grant the apostles the power to forgive and retain sins if He did not intended that they use it?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

How do you get past the fact that Christ instituted a specific method of confession for believers?

John 20: 19-23

This is clearly the institution of an authoritative capacity. Why would Christ grant the apostles the power to forgive and retain sins if He did not intended that they use it?

 

[guanophore]

Where does it say the opposite?

1 John 1:7-9
1 John 2:1
Romans 3:23
1 Corinthians 15:57
Romans 8.1

If no confession is made: God knows the heart, He knows if you’re sorry or not (in case of death for instance). However, we should confess our sins.

GG

Are you saying that you really don’t know where in Scripture there are references to degrees of sin?

I am asking about someone who refuses to repent.

 

[guanophore]

You see Guanophore, even if one Christian would JUMP OUT from the hands of Christ in all Christian history, that would destroy God’s omniscience.

No, it does not.

I think maybe you mean omnipotence? Either way, God created us with the free will to reject Him. We can be in a state of grace, and fall from it.

 

[LatinRight]

No, it does not.

I think maybe you mean omnipotence? Either way, God created us with the free will to reject Him. We can be in a state of grace, and fall from it.

Blessings guanophore,

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote; “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.” End quote Emphasize added.

Guanophore, Do you believe the above quote?

**PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006

Quote: **7. It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**. End quote. Emphasize added.

Guanophore, Do you believe the above quote?

**IN HARMONY **WITTH THE ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA, THE SRIPTURE ALSO STATES

Rom.8:29-30; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For those whom He foreknew He also PREDESTINED … And those whom He predestined He also CALLED;

Eph.2:8;
“For by grace you have been saved … it is the GIFT of God.”

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.” End quote. Emphasize added.

Guanophore, Do you believe the above quote?

AskACatholic.com

Quote: “What is Catholic view on predestination?

This is an often confusing and difficult subject to address.

The bottom line is that the Catholic Church does teach that the ELECT ARE PREDESTINED, while concomitantly, free will is respected so that God is not involved with coercion.

The best way to explain this is that God has foreknowledge of ALL those that would RESPOND to his gift of self.

While He wills all to be saved (cf. 1 Timothy 2:3), NOT ALL accept Him (also, John 1:11-12).

In addition to this foreknowledge, God also has provided **ALL THE GRACE NECESSARY **for those to be saved.

In this way, He has DETERMINED their salvation: by INSURING it.

So, in the end, God not only knows who will be saved, He “saw to it” that they were saved, and respected the free will of those who were not.” End quote. Emphasize added.

Guanophore, Do you believe the above quote?

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[Darryl_B]

Blessings guanophore,

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote; “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.” End quote Emphasize added.

Guanophore, Do you believe the above quote?

**PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006

Quote: **7. It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**. End quote. Emphasize added.

Guanophore, Do you believe the above quote?

**IN HARMONY **WITTH THE ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA, THE SRIPTURE ALSO STATES

Rom.8:29-30; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For those whom He foreknew He also PREDESTINED … And those whom He predestined He also CALLED;

Eph.2:8;
“For by grace you have been saved … it is the GIFT of God.”

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.” End quote. Emphasize added.

Guanophore, Do you believe the above quote?

AskACatholic.com

Quote: “What is Catholic view on predestination?

This is an often confusing and difficult subject to address.

The bottom line is that the Catholic Church does teach that the ELECT ARE PREDESTINED, while concomitantly, free will is respected so that God is not involved with coercion.

The best way to explain this is that God has foreknowledge of ALL those that would RESPOND to his gift of self.

While He wills all to be saved (cf. 1 Timothy 2:3), NOT ALL accept Him (also, John 1:11-12).

In addition to this foreknowledge, God also has provided **ALL THE GRACE NECESSARY **for those to be saved.

In this way, He has DETERMINED their salvation: by INSURING it.

So, in the end, God not only knows who will be saved, He “saw to it” that they were saved, and respected the free will of those who were not.” End quote. Emphasize added.

Guanophore, Do you believe the above quote?

Blessings

LatinRight

LatinRight I think you are reading this with a different understanding to me. But that would be a subject for a different thread.

 

[GodsGrace154]

GG,
You may have mentioned it before, but what faith tradition are you a member of? It always makes me nervous when I hear the term “protestant doctrine”, mainly because protestant itself in neither a doctrine nor a faith tradition.

Jon

In my understanding Protestant just means anything that is not Catholic.
That doesn’t mean we don’t agree on many things. More than not, I’d say.

So my faith tradition:
Catholic
Nazarene

I know the doctrine of both.

GG

 

[JonNC]

In my understanding Protestant just means anything that is not Catholic.
That doesn’t mean we don’t agree on many things. More than not, I’d say.

So my faith tradition:
Catholic
Nazarene

I know the doctrine of both.

GG

Thanks, GG.
Yeah, that’s the problem with the term Protestant. It means so many things that it really means nothing.
That said, thanks for sharing this information. It makes it easier to understand where you’re coming from.

Jon

 

[GodsGrace154]

The message in paragraph 7 is very clear.

Baptism into the Body of Christ is a PERMANET BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact of DEFECTION and COULD NOT be lost, because God only baptize His elect predestined to heaven into the Body of Christ.

If would be lost even one Christian given to Christ, that would destroy God’s omniscience.

So, we even could say, “Once in the Body of Christ Always in the Body of Christ.”

God does not baptize the reprobates into the Body of Christ whose names, for their rejection of God and His grace, taken out from the Book of Life when it is completed before the foundation of the world.

After completion, the Book of Life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

**IN HARMONY **WITTH THE ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA, THE SRIPTURE ALSO STATES

Rom.8:29-30; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For those whom He foreknew He also PREDESTINED … And those whom He predestined He also CALLED;

Eph.2:8;
“For by grace you have been saved … it is the GIFT of God.”

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.”

The above quotes are conclusive proof that no one will JUMP OUT from the hands of Christ.

I’m not proud of it, but I have to admit:
In the past I have used many Bible verses for attempt to prove, by using our free will we can JUMP OUT from the hands of Christ.

At that time I didn’t know:
The very nature of omniscience demands that, our names, our career on earth includes our free will is present before the Divine mind from all eternity.”

God don’t have to wait until we have the will to JUMP, our will is present before the Divine mind from all eternity and He has COMPLETED the Book of Life and He has MADE His predestination ACCORDINLY before the foundation of the world.

The Book of Life alone is a conclusive proof that no one will JUMP OUT from the hands of Christ.

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

“God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the

beautiful figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a

list which contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO

ERASURES.” End quote Emphasize added.

You see Guanophore, even if one Christian would JUMP OUT from the hands of Christ in all Christian history, that would destroy God’s omniscience.

We can be sure that will never happen!

I believe the following warning completes the post.

AN IMPORTANT WARNING FOR ALL OF US! – 1 Cor.11:27;

God doesn’t want that the reprobates whose names have been taken out from the Book of life before the foundation of the world to participate in the Eucharist.

We all should know our standing before we partake in the Eucharist!

So, in 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND:

2 Cor.13:5-6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. TEST YOURSELVES.

Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

I hope **YOU WILL FIND OUT **that we have not failed. End quote. Emphasize added.

Blessings

LatinRight

Could you condense please.
I’m a little slow and the above almost sounds like Calvinism.

Are you saying we COULD jump out of Jesus’ hands OR we cannot??

I agree with Guanophore. We CAN jump out.

GG

 

[GodsGrace154]

No, it does not.

I think maybe you mean omnipotence? Either way, God created us with the free will to reject Him. We can be in a state of grace, and fall from it.

100% correct.

 

[GodsGrace154]

Are you saying that you really don’t know where in Scripture there are references to degrees of sin?

I am asking about someone who refuses to repent.

Someone who refuses to repent is lost and not a member of the kingdom of God.

GG

 

[Porknpie]

Someone who refuses to repent is lost and not a member of the kingdom of God.

GG

GodsGrace,

So if one steals say a dime, from a neighbor (say found in their kitchen while having lunch together), and they don’t confess, they will be lost, and not a member of the kingdom of God?

 

[GodsGrace154]

GodsGrace,

So if one steals say a dime, from a neighbor (say found in their kitchen while having lunch together), and they don’t confess, they will be lost, and not a member of the kingdom of God?

This is what I had said to which you are replying the above:

Someone who refuses to repent is lost and not a member of the kingdom of God.

Question for you:
What does “repent” mean??

GG