Justification by works and not by faith alone: James bluntly says it

[ProdglArchitect]

This is what I had said to which you are replying the above:

Someone who refuses to repent is lost and not a member of the kingdom of God.

Question for you:
What does “repent” mean??

GG

I think “repent” has a fairly standard definition across all of Christendom:

“To recognize that what I have to done is offensive to God, to seek to make reparation for that offense, and to seek to avoid that offense in the future.”

 

[Frankenfurter]

What did the Pope say that was Biblical?
And that is the WHY Luther wanted to have faith alone.
It is Biblical

"According to this report, **Benedict affirmed that Luther had correctly translated Paul’s words as ‘justified by faith alone’ – the well known sola fide. **

. "Yet, said the Pope, it was indeed biblical to say, as did Luther, that it was the faith of a Christian, not his works that saved him."

blogs.cbn.com/ChurchWatch/archive/2009/02/06/pope-benedict-xvi-luther-was-right.aspx

do you agree with this?

Yes I agree. But what does the word ‘faith’ mean to the pope? In his own words then from the document you linked to:

---

By defining “faith” as “identification with Christ expressed in love for God and neighbor,” Pope Benedict qualified his statement, noting that the Apostle Paul had written about such faith in his letters, especially the one to the Philippians.

According to Fountain, the Pope highlighted the fact that prior to his Damascus Road conversion, Paul had strictly adhered to all the Pharisaical laws and rules. However, after meeting the Lord Jesus in his vision, Paul began leading a lifestyle of faith alone. ***

So lets be clear what the pope says he means by faith: “identification with Christ expressed in love for God and neighbor”.

There is no way to separate faith from works in this definition since since faith alone includes the expression of love for God and neighbor.

The ‘works’ that Paul rejected were the ‘works of the law’ that people followed thinking that these works would lead them to salvation.

We get tangled up in words on this topic. But are all in agreement.

Well not all actually. I know plenty of protestants who will tell you that their faith in Jesus is all that they need and that they are saved. This is heretical and non-biblical. No mention of love, certainly no mention of expressing this love through works.

Catholic faith is written down. We can quote the pope as you have, and I have completed his quote. Protestants on the other hand have no common voice. No written statement of what they believe. They are all over the map because the have rejected the authority which makes them unified.

 

[GodsGrace154]

I think “repent” has a fairly standard definition across all of Christendom:

“To recognize that what I have to done is offensive to God, to seek to make reparation for that offense, and to seek to avoid that offense in the future.”

Repent means to change direction. To go the other way.
It means you were going one way (toward satan and doom) and you decided to repent and go the other way (toward God and salvation).

What you’re defining is “sin.”

So if the person in the hypothetical situation that Porknpie brings up, steals the dime from the neighbor’s house, he would be committing a sin and would not be damned for it. Sins are forgiven.

He would have already had to repent.

I had said that if he did NOT REPENT he would be lost because we all need to repent and turn in the direction of God.

GG

 

[fhansen]

Repent means to change direction. To go the other way.
It means you were going one way (toward satan and doom) and you decided to repent and go the other way (toward God and salvation).

What you’re defining is “sin.”

So if the person in the hypothetical situation that Porknpie brings up, steals the dime from the neighbor’s house, he would be committing a sin and would not be damned for it. Sins are forgiven.

He would have already had to repent.

I had said that if he did NOT REPENT he would be lost because we all need to repent and turn in the direction of God.

GG

It’s entirely possible to turn back* away* from God, as Scripture attests to.

 

[fhansen]

For the Lutheran there is. From our confessions:

Jon

This is interesting tho. Catholicism teaches that faith can remain with sin, even as it will presumably diminish over time especially in the case of the more serious sins.

 

[JonNC]

This is interesting tho. Catholicism teaches that faith can remain with sin, even as it will presumably diminish over time especially in the case of the more serious sins.

So do Lutherans - simul iustus et peccator - at once a saint and sinner. Lutherans would agree that remaining in repeated, unrepented sin diminishes faith.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Repent means to change direction. To go the other way.
It means you were going one way (toward satan and doom) and you decided to repent and go the other way (toward God and salvation).

What you’re defining is “sin.”

So if the person in the hypothetical situation that Porknpie brings up, steals the dime from the neighbor’s house, he would be committing a sin and would not be damned for it. Sins are forgiven.

He would have already had to repent.

I had said that if he did NOT REPENT he would be lost because we all need to repent and turn in the direction of God.

GG

Sins are already forgiven how?

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Does this make forgiveness conditional on confession?

Jon

 

[Porknpie]

This is what I had said to which you are replying the above:

Someone who refuses to repent is lost and not a member of the kingdom of God.

Question for you:
What does “repent” mean??

GG

God’s Grace,

How about this definition of repentance:

being sorrowful for & detesting the sin committed… and resolving not to commit the sin again.
I’m not clear on the dime example. If one steals a dime from a neighbor’s house, and does not repent, do you believe that person has been cutoff…and will be thrown into the fire?

Also, curious, do you believe repenting is the same as confessing?

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 Jn 1:9

 

[fhansen]

For the Lutheran there is. From our confessions:

Jon

But in the Catholic context it means that a person can have faith without being a saint, without being justified. Without love, as another way of saying it.

 

[GodsGrace154]

It’s entirely possible to turn back* away* from God, as Scripture attests to.

And at that point, one becomes lost.

GG

 

[GodsGrace154]

Sins are already forgiven how?

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Does this make forgiveness conditional on confession?

Jon

JonNC

I didn’t pick my name here (whatever it’s called: nickname?) for nothing.
I like to spread grace around. We don’t hear enough about it. And sometimes too much about it and it brings us to bad places.

Anyway, of course I agree with 1 John 1:8-10 !

I hope I can explain about forgiveness. It is conditional on confession (to the person and to God) but even if I did not confess and died, God would forgive it. Why? Because God knows ME and He would know if I was sorry for that sin and He would forgive me even if I didn’t confess before dying.

To me it’s all a matter of the heart. That’s what the New Covenant is all about.

GG

 

[GodsGrace154]

God’s Grace,

How about this definition of repentance:

being sorrowful for & detesting the sin committed… and resolving not to commit the sin again.
I’m not clear on the dime example. If one steals a dime from a neighbor’s house, and does not repent, do you believe that person has been cutoff…and will be thrown into the fire?

Also, curious, do you believe repenting is the same as confessing?

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 Jn 1:9

I’m sorry Porknpie. You don’t seem to understand what the word “repent” means.
I have explained it in a previous post.

You can understand it with whatever description you feel comfortable with, BUT it doesn’t mean what you’re saying. The bible was written in Greek. In Greek REPENT means what I explained in my earlier post. TO CHANGE DIRECTION. TO GO IN THE DIRECTION OF GOD. You’re using the word as it’s used today in our modern, English speaking world, and it removes the true meaning of the word - which is very IMPORTANT. See the CCC no. 1430-1432. (you could start even with 1427).
What your defining above is Contrition. See the CCC no. 1451.

But to answer your specific questions:

If the person who steals the dime from the neighbor is a Christian person and believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, I do not believe he will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. I believe he will be forgiven.

Repenting is not the same as confessing.
Please read the CCC and also take into consideration my explanation since it is much simpler than the CCC but is saying the same thing.

You know when you go to get ashes on Ash Wednesday and the priest has the choice of two verses - one is Repent and believe in the gospel. He’s not saying to be sorry for your sins - he’s saying to CHANGE YOUR WAY and believe in God (and follow the gospel which is what shows you how to believe in God and follow His ways).

GG

 

[guanophore]

But in the Catholic context it means that a person can have faith without being a saint, without being justified. Without love, as another way of saying it.

How does that work, since faith without love is dead?

 

[guanophore]

I’m sorry Porknpie. You don’t seem to understand what the word “repent” means.
I have explained it in a previous post.

You can understand it with whatever description you feel comfortable with, BUT it doesn’t mean what you’re saying. The bible was written in Greek. In Greek REPENT means what I explained in my earlier post. TO CHANGE DIRECTION. TO GO IN THE DIRECTION OF GOD. You’re using the word as it’s used today in our modern, English speaking world, and it removes the true meaning of the word - which is very IMPORTANT. See the CCC no. 1430-1432. (you could start even with 1427).
What your defining above is Contrition. See the CCC no. 1451.

But to answer your specific questions:

If the person who steals the dime from the neighbor is a Christian person and believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, I do not believe he will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. I believe he will be forgiven.

Repenting is not the same as confessing.
Please read the CCC and also take into consideration my explanation since it is much simpler than the CCC but is saying the same thing.

You know when you go to get ashes on Ash Wednesday and the priest has the choice of two verses - one is Repent and believe in the gospel. He’s not saying to be sorry for your sins - he’s saying to CHANGE YOUR WAY and believe in God (and follow the gospel which is what shows you how to believe in God and follow His ways).

GG

I agree with your point, but for Catholics, contrition and confession are part and parcel of repentance.

“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15

Jesus calls us to turn from faithlessness to faithfulness.

μετανοεῖτε =metanoeite = From meta and noieo; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. Reconsider (morally, feel compunction) – repent.

Literally to change or reverse one’s mind, but in a Christian context, to make a behavioral U-turn as well as a mental and spiritual one.

So I think you are both right.

 

[fhansen]

How does that work, since faith without love is dead?

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But “faith apart from works is dead”: when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

**"…if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." **1 Cor 13

"Now these three remain, faith, hope, and love. But the most important of these is love." 1 Cor 13

"Without love faith can indeed exit but can be of no avail". St Augustine

Love is what constitutes justice for man; it’s what makes us just. Faith is the beginning of a process -a work of God’s- that’s meant to lead us there. We’re justified by faith. From Trent, session 6:

**"…faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification."

“For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity.”**

 

[GodsGrace154]

How does that work, since faith without love is dead?

I’d like to know that too from Fhansen.

Also, if one has faith, he IS justified.

GG

 

[GodsGrace154]

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But “faith apart from works is dead”: when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

**"…if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." **1 Cor 13

"Now these three remain, faith, hope, and love. But the most important of these is love." 1 Cor 13

"Without love faith can indeed exit but can be of no avail". St Augustine

Love is what constitutes justice for man; it’s what makes us just. Faith is the beginning of a process -a work of God’s- that’s meant to lead us there. We’re justified by faith. From Trent, session 6:

**"…faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification."

“For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity.”**

I’ve read the above twice and there’s something wrong here.
Maybe in the way you phrased your statement.

If you have faith, you ARE justified.
If you have faith, you are called to LOVE.
If you have faith, you are called to DO WORKS.

The above says that without Love, faith is of no avail.
The two go hand in hand.

I think your first phrasing was off and that you agree with this post.

GG

 

[GodsGrace154]

I agree with your point, but for Catholics, contrition and confession are part and parcel of repentance.

“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15

Jesus calls us to turn from faithlessness to faithfulness.

μετανοεῖτε =metanoeite = From meta and noieo; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. Reconsider (morally, feel compunction) – repent.

Literally to change or reverse one’s mind, but in a Christian context, to make a behavioral U-turn as well as a mental and spiritual one.

So I think you are both right.

I like you Guanophore.
You’re like Solomon!

We’re both right because you could understand “repent” either in the old Greek way, or the new modern way. See, you put the Greek up there.

I like the old way better because it explains an important concept.
Some people think you could just live your life, go along, never pay heed to God, but they feel like they’re a nice person, don’t kill anybody and so everything is alright.

Everything is not alright. We must make a decision for God!

Do you agree?

GG

 

[Porknpie]

If the person who steals the dime from the neighbor is a Christian person and believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, I do not believe he will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. I believe he will be forgiven. GG

GG -

I agree with you above.

But this is also true below yes? (Assuming one does not repent)

• nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6:10*

We assume then that St. Paul is not speaking of someone who took 10 cents, even if they did not repent. That St. Paul must be speaking of a great thievery… perhaps unjustly taking someone’s land or swindling an elderly’s life savings, or stealing from the collection basket at Church?

 

[GodsGrace154]

GG -

I agree with you above.

But this is also true below yes? (Assuming one does not repent)

• nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6:10*

We assume then that St. Paul is not speaking of someone who took 10 cents, even if they did not repent. That St. Paul must be speaking of a great thievery… perhaps unjustly taking someone’s land or swindling an elderly’s life savings, or stealing from the collection basket at Church?

I agree with you Porknpie.

Also, notice that Paul says NOR THIEVES, NOR GREEDY, NOR DRUNKARDS, NOR ROBBERS…

IOW, he’s referring to a state of the soul. Just because you steal 10 cents doesn’t make you a THIEF or a ROBBER. Just because you drink one glass of wine with dinner doesn’t make you a DRUNKARD. See? When you come to know God, your very nature must change. I think we’ll agree on this too.

GG