Justification - Catholics and Protestants

[2nd_Adam]

So? Two different words doesn’t mean they are not one, like grace and favor in the Scriptures.

In the Scriptures justification and sanctification are used virtually synonymously. catholic-legate.com/qa/sanctification.html

The words justification and sanctification do not have the same meaning in Scripture. Maybe your post helps me understand Catholic theology.

 

[fhansen]

The words justification and sanctification do not have the same meaning in Scripture. Maybe your post helps me understand Catholic theology.

I think it’d be correct to say that we believe one is justified by being sanctified. They can have two different meanings as justification, for us, is a process.

 

[guanophore]

They are two different words in Scripture. However Christ is still are justification and sanctification.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Yes, they are distinct from each other, but they are not separated one from the other. Those whom God justifies, He sanctifies. Justification does not exist in separation from sanctification.

And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, - 1 Cor 1:30

Not sure what your point is here either. I think we are in agreement that we cannot be justified (made righteous) sanctified and redeemed apart from Christ, are we not?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think it’d be correct to say that we believe one is justified by being sanctified. They can have two different meanings as justification, for us, is a process.

This is where Catholics are very different than Protestants in our theologies. .

 

[2nd_Adam]

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Yes, they are distinct from each other, but they are not separated one from the other. Those whom God justifies, He sanctifies. Justification does not exist in separation from sanctification.

Not sure what your point is here either. I think we are in agreement that we cannot be justified (made righteous) sanctified and redeemed apart from Christ, are we not?

Here’s the chain of salvation according to Scripture:

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Sacred Scripture

 

[fhansen]

I don’t think we are in disagreement, then. I was responding to the quote from the document that states “moved by His grace”. That grace both transforms us, and moves us to transform the world in which we live. It is the state of grace in which He places for us that makes us able to “merit”. Please help me understand if I am not.

I think I see-and I know you understand the faith better than I anyway. I was focusing on the fact that the greatest commandments are a tall order to fulfill-and to do so, with Gods grace, would mean one had reached perfection.

 

[Carlan]

Where faith and works come in to play, is in our “accepting or rejecting” of God’s free gift of his grace. When Christ died on the cross for us, it was to make God’s saving Grace available to all of humanity. **When he died on the cross, it did become available to all of humanity. The difference between the saved and unsaved is our response to Gods free gift of grace. **
This is what is being gotten at here I think.

Crazzeto, that is exactly it. His redemption was for all God’s created people ,our response to his grace our yes to him is what saves.Carlen

 

[2nd_Adam]

Crazzeto, that is exactly it. His redemption was for all God’s created people ,our response to his grace our yes to him is what saves.Carlen

We both believe that sinners are saved by grace alone. However, how effectual is God’s grace found in Christ to be for humanity? We do have to explore how God is sovereign in redemptive history, saving individual sinners. So, for our exploration of God’s redeeming work, do we search the Scriptures for answers, or do we turn to the Catholic Church to explain this great tension. I believe Scripture clearly teaches that God will save all whom He intended to saved before the foundation of the world. The free will theory cannot stand-up to God’s sovereignity when we consider all of Scripture. In your view, man is sovereign over God in redemptive history. This is so dangerous because now you are opening up the Pandora’s door to say that other non-Christian religions can save you (Islam and Judaism). If that’s true, then Christ died in vain.

 

[Carlan]

We both believe that sinners are saved by grace alone. However, how effectual is God’s grace found in Christ to be for humanity? We do have to explore how God is sovereign in redemptive history, saving individual sinners. So, for our exploration of God’s redeeming work, do we search the Scriptures for answers, or do we turn to the Catholic Church to explain this great tension. ** I believe Scripture clearly teaches that God will save all whom He intended to saved before the foundation of the world. The free will theory cannot stand-up to God’s sovereignity when we consider all of Scripture. In your view, man is sovereign over God in redemptive history. This is so dangerous because now you are opening up the Pandora’s door to say that other non-Christian religions can save you (Islam and Judaism). If that’s true, then Christ died in vain.**

Continue seeking the full truth Adam, Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you with your mind completely open to what he wants for you, not for what you want it to be.

You have rec’d your Christian education from a religion which does not teach full truth.Carlan

 

[Carlan]

I believe Scripture clearly teaches that God will save all whom He intended to saved before the foundation of the world. The free will theory cannot stand-up to God’s sovereignity when we consider all of Scripture. In your view, man is sovereign over God in redemptive history. This is so dangerous because now you are opening up the Pandora’s door to say that other non-Christian religions can save you (Islam and Judaism). If that’s true, then Christ died in vain.

God wants all to be saved. Jews, Islams all of us. Jesus suffering on the Cross redeemed us all, however it is our response to that knowledge that saves.Our YES.
If people, through no fault of their , have never heard the good news of Jesus Christ,but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and moved by grace try to do God’s will as they know it by what their conscience tell them,they too may achieve salvation. This is what the Church teaches,CCC/847. Carlan

 

[JonNC]

=guanophore;5887197]Yes. I have heard Luther criticized by evangelicals for remaining “too Catholic” in His theology and practices. They don’t blame him, of course, but that he was “steeped” in it, and though he tried to jettison it, could not entirely. Hence, the need for further “reform”.

And I am coming to the opinion that, in some ways, he too overreacted (not surprisingly considering his time).

Is that the same as “obedience of faith”?

Not sure how you mean this, but I suspect so. The Augsburg Confession says:

Article VI: Of New Obedience.

1] Also they teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruits, and that it is necessary to do good works commanded by God, because of God’s will, but that we should not rely on those works to merit justification 2] before God. For remission of sins and justification is apprehended by faith, as also the voice of Christ attests: When ye shall have done all these things, say: We are unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. The same is also taught by 3] the Fathers. For Ambrose says: It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving remission of sins, without works, by faith alone.

Jon

 

[Cr8ton]

Here’s the chain of salvation according to Scripture:

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Sacred Scripture

I am curious what scripture supports more… anyone that has information clarifying these questions please feel free to share if it does in fact align with the rest of scripture.

This says a couple possibilities here to me which I haven’t fully researched to come to a conclusion.

Did God predestine those who He foreknew based upon the foreknowledge itself ? (meaning He already knew who would accept the call of the Holy Spirit and would choose to love God) [in this case the Holy Spirit lured ALL humans but some resisted, and also meaning when someone first accepts Christ through the drawing in of the Holy Spirit they *then become part of the elect]

Or was it that God chose only those who’m He desired based upon nothing good from the ones He chose but according to His sovereign will. Meaning some were not chosen and therefore had different destinies. [in this case the Holy Spirit lured only humans that were elected but none resisted due to God’s irresistible Grace]

This is deep stuff and there could definitly be more possibilites… but right now these are what I’m seeing, I’m unsure if I can come to a conclusion based on what I have read this far… but I lean towards the first one as of now… hmm

 

[guanophore]

We both believe that sinners are saved by grace alone.  However, how effectual is God's grace found in Christ to be for humanity?  We do have to explore how God is sovereign in redemptive history, saving individual sinners.  So, for our exploration of God's redeeming work, do we search the Scriptures for answers, or do we turn to the Catholic Church to explain this great tension.

You are creating false dichotomies again, 2nd. There is no "great tension’ between what is in Scripture, and the Teaching of the Apostles alive and well in the Catholic Church. The Bible is a Catholic book, and there is nothing in it that is contrary to Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church was careful to exclude any books that did not accruately reflect the faith.

I believe Scripture clearly teaches that God will save all whom He intended to saved before the foundation of the world. The free will theory cannot stand-up to God’s sovereignity when we consider all of Scripture.

Perhaps it does not stand up in your mind, because you have embraced teachings that depart from what the Apostles taught. One of these is that our faith, which is under our control, must be mixed with God’s grace in order that we obtain salvation.

Another is that people can reject God’s purpose for themselves. God desires for all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth.

 

[guanophore]

I am curious what scripture supports more… anyone that has information clarifying these questions please feel free to share if it does in fact align with the rest of scripture.

This says a couple possibilities here to me which I haven’t fully researched to come to a conclusion.

Did God predestine those who He foreknew based upon the foreknowledge itself ? (meaning He already knew who would accept the call of the Holy Spirit and would choose to love God) [in this case the Holy Spirit lured ALL humans but some resisted, and also meaning when someone first accepts Christ through the drawing in of the Holy Spirit they *then become

part of the elect]

I don’t know if “lured” is the best word.

The Latin Rite calls it “prevenient grace” or drawing grace - that grace that is poured out upon all men, drawing them into life.

Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent…

Act 26:20 but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.

Only those that respond to this call are 'chosen".

 Or was it that God chose only those who'm He desired based upon nothing good from the ones He chose but according to His sovereign will. Meaning some were not chosen and therefore had different destinies. [in this case the Holy Spirit lured only humans that were elected but none resisted due to God's irresistible Grace]

I am sure 2nd will correct me if I am wrong, but this is my understanding of the Calvanist position. It presupposes that one cannot reject the purpose of God for themselves, to which Scripture testifies the opposite.

This is deep stuff and there could definitly be more possibilites… but right now these are what I’m seeing, I’m unsure if I can come to a conclusion based on what I have read this far… but I lean towards the first one as of now… hmm

Why is that?

 

[2nd_Adam]

You are creating false dichotomies again, 2nd. There is no "great tension’ between what is in Scripture, and the Teaching of the Apostles alive and well in the Catholic Church. The Bible is a Catholic book, and there is nothing in it that is contrary to Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church was careful to exclude any books that did not accruately reflect the faith.

Perhaps it does not stand up in your mind, because you have embraced teachings that depart from what the Apostles taught. One of these is that our faith, which is under our control, must be mixed with God’s grace in order that we obtain salvation.

Another is that people can reject God’s purpose for themselves. God desires for all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth.

Your responses are simply lay Catholic propaganda without an honest attempt to deal with the issues. On the topic of free will and the sovereignity of God, I guess I would have to go the apologetics section to get an honest discussion with some meat behind it.

 

[Cr8ton]

I don’t know if “lured” is the best word.

The Latin Rite calls it “prevenient grace” or drawing grace - that grace that is poured out upon all men, drawing them into life.

Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent…

Act 26:20 but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.

Only those that respond to this call are 'chosen".

I am sure 2nd will correct me if I am wrong, but this is my understanding of the Calvanist position. It presupposes that one cannot reject the purpose of God for themselves, to which Scripture testifies the opposite.

Why is that?

because i have to read the scriptures, pray for guidance and understanding and see if I can honestly take in one of these views as truth without contradicting any current truth found in scripture…

 

[Cr8ton]

Your responses are simply lay Catholic propaganda without an honest attempt to deal with the issues. On the topic of free will and the sovereignity of God, I guess I would have to go the apologetics section to get an honest discussion with some meat behind it.

if you do goto apologetics section please give a link so I can find it Love reading your posts

 

[guanophore]

Your responses are simply lay Catholic propaganda without an honest attempt to deal with the issues. On the topic of free will and the sovereignity of God, I guess I would have to go the apologetics section to get an honest discussion with some meat behind it.

No, 2nd, I have no “propaganda” to offer you.

You know much I encourage you to go to Apologetics!

However, since you have been unable to respond to the few scriptures I have already posted, it is not likely youwill have better experience there. In order to support your view, so much scripture and history must be ignored that it is a ponderous task. I don’t blame you for being daunted by it.

 

[guanophore]

because i have to read the scriptures, pray for guidance and understanding and see if I can honestly take in one of these views as truth without contradicting any current truth found in scripture…

Yes. I see.

Well, keep in mind as you search the Scriptures that we all read them according to our mindset. what we read will be governed by our perceptions, experiences, and education, or lack of it.

You can see from what 2nd has posted, he reads them according to his monergistic mindset. He is unable to respond to any verses that do not reinforce his thinking. He has to ignore them, or dismiss them, in order to preserve the mindset.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Here’s the chain of salvation according to Scripture:

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Sacred Scripture

What did God foreknow about the predestined?

Their works? Their faith? Their obedience? Their humility?

What didn’t he know?