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2nd_Adam
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I forgot your question.
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crazzeto
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Not mine, Canto’s which you refuse to answer. Answer it.
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bookgirl32
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2nd Adam, I posted a question asking “why do you always answer questions with questions?” You then quoted it, deleted the “do you always answer questions with questions” part, left the word “why”, put a quesion mark after it, and gave an answer to a question I never asked. Talk about taking things out of context.All Christians believe that they are united to Christ. Scripture calls those who are united to Christ to be Christians, the Elect, chosen ones, saints, vessels of mercy, sanctified (set apart ones), etc. I do not know of anyone who believes in Calvinistic predestination and do not believe they are not an elect (Christian). Peter tells us to make our calling and election sure in his 2nd Epistle. I would just say that you as my dear Catholic sister to “read the Bible more” and you will learn about a greater work of Jesus Christ on your behalf… to the praise and glory of His saving grace.Do you believe that God is your Heavenly Father? Have you been adopted into the family of God based on the person and work of Christ alone? Or, do you see your adoption papers on hold, pending on how you perform in this life? Sounds like a works righteousness potential adoption to me.
uch::doh2: How sufficent is the work of Christ for you in your adoption?
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Love_is_Patient
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Wow.You always run from the issues my brother. You have been bugging me for weeks to debate on the Apologetics section. Therefore, please start a friendly brotherly thread on TULIP on the Apologetics section and I will join you. It is much better for a Catholic Christian to start a TULIP thread on the apologetics sections. No more lay apologetics with lay Catholic methods of avoiding the issues at hand. It’s time to be humbled by the Word of God my brother. Like alll Calvinists, we have discussed and debated TULIP with our dear Arminian Protestant brothers in the Scriptures for years.
And you wonder why we think you’re incredibly condescending towards Catholics.
Love is Patient
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2nd_Adam
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This particular Catholic brother has been pushing me to debate on the apologetics section. Well, I thought I would finally yield to his wishes even though I don’t like what apologetics tend to do to most of us.Wow.
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2nd_Adam
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I have no idea what is the question. I am discussing things with so many Catholics siblings at the same time.
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E.E.N.S
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Indeed. In fact, much of my conversion from Protestantism to Catholicism was due to a more diligent study of Scripture.Don’t worry, if you study the Scriptures, you will not be turned into a Protestant Christian.
That being said, anyone who studies Sacred Scripture apart from history and Sacred Tradition can end up pretty much anywhere, as we have seen a clear example in the never ending splits within protestantism over the last 500 years.
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Love_is_Patient
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2nd_Adam
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I’m not really into Protestant apologetics. I just share what I believe to be true… pointing everyone to Jesus Christ and the sufficiency of His work for us.Why yes, 2nd Adam, we forgive you.
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E.E.N.S
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We would have to define ‘sufficiency’ I think, because as St. Paul says in Col 1:24 “Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:”
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Love_is_Patient
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For someone who’s not “into Protestant apologetics” you certainly spend a lot of time doing Protestant apologetics.
Love is Patient
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Canto
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2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that **by good works **you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.Peter tells us to make our **calling and election **sure in his 2nd Epistle. …Or, do you see your adoption papers on hold, pending on how you perform in this life? Sounds like a works righteousness potential adoption to me.
Matt 16:26 – rendered according to our works
Rom 2:2-8 - eternal life by perseverance in good works
2Cor 5:10 - recompense accord to what did in body
2Cor 11:15 - their end will correspond to their works
1Pet 1:17 - God judges impartially according to one’s works
Rev 20:12-13 - dead judged according to their works
Col 3:24-25 - will receive due payment for whatever you do
Matt 19:17 - keep the commandmants for eternal life
Matt 7:21 - not everyone saying “Lord, Lord” will inherit eternal life
Matt 24:13 - those who persevere to the end will be saved
Rom 11:22 - remain in his kindness or you will be cut off
Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling
1Cor 9:27 - drive body for fear of being disqualified
1Cor 10:11-12 - those thinking they are secure may fall
2Tim 2:11-23 - must hold out to the end to reign with Christ – depart from iniquity
Heb 10:26-27 - if sin after receiving truth, judgment remains
John 6:54 eat His flesh and drink His blood and be raised up in the last days - have eternal life
Mark 16:16 - be baptised of water and Spirit (John 3:5) to be saved
Philippians 1:29 - Don’t just believe but suffer for Him
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:
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2nd_Adam
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We are on the right topic to discuss why we have a different perspective on the sufficiency of Jesus Christ. The major division on how we see the person and work of Christ comes down to the doctrine of justification. Historic Protestant theology is based on a forensic justification expounded in Romans, Galatians and other Pauline Epistles. When we hear the gospel and receive it, God credits the perfect righteousness of Christ to our account, declaring us eternally justified in His sight. We are justified or right before God based on the perfect righteousness of another (Jesus Christ). It is an alien righteousness which is outside of us. Of course, through the work of the Spirit, the Christian life is a set apart life in which through sanctification, we grow in personal holiness and obedience… being made more like Christ. I am convinced beyond a doubt, that the historic Protestant position of justification is the biblical one. When Catholic theology blends justification together with the transformation process (sanctification), many Catholics tend to hold to a very close form of a works righteousness gospel since your security or peace with God is closely tied with our actual transformation. When this happens, then I see Catholic theology seems to make the work of Christ to be incomplete, therefore, your affection and love for God is reduced because Catholic theology leaves you unsure of your relationship with God as your eternal Heavenly Father. It actually grieves me that my Catholic siblings miss this wonderful truth that the work of Christ is completely sufficent for us, and full atonement for our sins is hard to believe, but it is true… to the praise of His glorious grace. Jesus Christ merited our full atonement, and is finished in regards to our permanent adoption into the kingdom of God. Remember, don’t confused our standing before God (justifiction) with the transformation process (sanctification) if you want to understand historic Protestantism based on the Scriptures as being authorative for truth.
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2nd_Adam
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These are all important and truthful Scriptures outside of the doctrine of justification. By posting these Scriptures within the thread of the doctrine of justification, can you see why many Protestants believe that Catholics hold to a works righteousness gospel? On what basis will you be in Heaven?
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ralphinal
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In order to understand the difference, we must start with the mistaken understanding of what happens to us when we are justified. God does not “Think of our sins as forgiven.” That implies that they ARE NOT forgiven but God acts as if they are. According to Scripture, when we become a part of the Body of Christ, we become New Creatures. We do not become snow covered dung hills. Our sins are forgiven (when we repent as we must do our part), and we are seen by God as adopted children.
Justification proceeds sanctification. Here is how I understand it. We must be justified. Christ already did that. When the Holy Spirit moves in our lives and we choose to cooperate, we can be sancitified. Sanctification is an on-going process where we avoid sin, repent when we sin, and continue to serve God as we have been instructed.
Imagine a man has some land. He decides to build houses on the land. First, he has it divided up, cleared, and roads and utilities put in. He does all of that on his own without anyone else’s cooperation. Then, people have to choose to build on that land. He can help in any number of ways. Justification is preping the site. Sanctification is building the home
Justification proceeds sanctification. Here is how I understand it. We must be justified. Christ already did that. When the Holy Spirit moves in our lives and we choose to cooperate, we can be sancitified. Sanctification is an on-going process where we avoid sin, repent when we sin, and continue to serve God as we have been instructed.
Imagine a man has some land. He decides to build houses on the land. First, he has it divided up, cleared, and roads and utilities put in. He does all of that on his own without anyone else’s cooperation. Then, people have to choose to build on that land. He can help in any number of ways. Justification is preping the site. Sanctification is building the home
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Canto
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Justifed by works. That’s right, the Bible clearly says we are justified by works (not alone).
God renders us according to our works - if our works are bad (he doesn’t force us to be good) will we be justifed?
By passing off the previously posted verses can you see why some Catholics think some Protestants believe works (good or bad) have no effect on wether one ultimatley gets into heaven or not.
eat flesh for life
keep commandmants for life
Baptism for life
If we don’t do these three things can we expect to be justified.
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Carlan
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So now you wish to go over to apologetics. only however on your terms. Just do it Adam what are you afraid will happen to you? could be a helpful practice in humility to face the challenge.
Carlan
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2nd_Adam
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Words can have multiple meanings. The Apostle Paul is not in contradiction with the Apostle James (James 2). Rather their views are compatible because they are using the term justification with different meaning and intent. If you take the 13 Epistles of Paul within his teaching of justification, at what point are we justified (made right with God) in our Christian life (Rom 3 and 4)? Now if we have peace with God, what is our standing before God based on in the Christian life now and forever (Rom 5)? The historic Protestant belief in the doctrine of justification is based on Scripture alone. It cannot be refuted within the Scriptures. Even though I believe that historic Protestantism and the Catholic Faith have radically different views of the doctrine of justification, I can still embrace Catholics as my brothers and sisters in Christ… simply because the biblical Jesus Christ saves sinners. Nobody has perfect theology; therefore, it is not how much you know, but rather it’s about who you know (Jesus Christ). If you know God through the historic biblical Jesus Christ, you are known by God as His adopted child. Your adoption into the kingdom of God is eternally permanent because your adoption was purchased and guaranteed by our Elder Brother.
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Canto
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Protestant theology - which one?
How many times have Protestants been explained the Catholic postion on works yet they keep propogating nonsense?
seems to you - not to us
Factless.
I like to think I have a very close relationship with God (Eucharist!) but will I get into heaven when I die, hope so, but I would never be so bold as to say MOST DEFINITELY!
How is Christ’s atonment hard to believe? Doesn’t mean everyone who claims to have faith is going to make it heaven.
Luke 13:23 And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: 24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter and shall not be able.
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2nd_Adam
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I’m waiting for my certain Catholic brother to start the thread on TULIP over at the apologetics section. I don’t undestand how changing sections on Catholic Answers will change what is true.So now you wish to go over to apologetics. only however on your terms. Just do it Adam what are you afraid will happen to you? could be a helpful practice in humility to face the challenge.
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