Justification - Catholics and Protestants

[2nd_Adam]

Protestant theology - which one?

How many times have Protestatns been explained the Catholic postion on works yet they keep propogating nonsense?

seems to you - not to us

Factless.

I like to think I have a very close relationship with God (Eucharist!) but will I get into heaven when I die, hope so, but I would never be so bold as to say MOST DEFINITELY!

How is Christ’s atonment hard to believe? Doesn’t mean everyone who claims to have faith is going to make it heaven.

Luke 13:23 And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: 24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter and shall not be able.

This is an educational thread to help us understand each other’s view on the essential doctrine of justification.

 

[Canto]

This is an educational thread to help us understand each other’s view on the essential doctrine of justification.

Point being.

You expressed some opinions and I was pointing out the Catholic view.

 

[ralphinal]

Words can have multiple meanings. The Apostle Paul is not in contradiction with the Apostle James (James 2). Rather their views are compatible because they are using the term justification with different meaning and intent. If you take the 13 Epistles of Paul within his teaching of justification, at what point are we justified (made right with God) in our Christian life (Rom 3 and 4)? Now if we have peace with God, what is our standing before God based on in the Christian life now and forever (Rom 5)? The historic Protestant belief in the doctrine of justification is based on Scripture alone. It cannot be refuted within the Scriptures. Even though I believe that historic Protestantism and the Catholic Faith have radically different views of the doctrine of justification, I can still embrace Catholics as my brothers and sisters in Christ… simply because the biblical Jesus Christ saves sinners. Nobody has perfect theology; therefore, it is not how much you know, but rather it’s about who you know (Jesus Christ). If you know God through the historic biblical Jesus Christ, you are known by God as His adopted child. Your adoption into the kingdom of God is eternally permanent because your adoption was purchased and guaranteed by our Elder Brother.

You are correct that the terms are used multiple times with different meanings. What I want to see is that Justification does not make us “new creatures” but “snow covered dung hills” and that Justification does not mean we are not made right with God but that we are overlooked.

The position that many Protestants have is that we are not changed when we are justified. That is very unscriptural

 

[2nd_Adam]

You are correct that the terms are used multiple times with different meanings. What I want to see is that Justification does not make us “new creatures” but “snow covered dung hills” and that Justification does not mean we are not made right with God but that we are overlooked.

The position that many Protestants have is that we are not changed when we are justified. That is very unscriptural

That’s a good point. Many Protestants have a tendency to seperate justifcation too much from sanctification (process of being made like Christ). Those who have been justified will be sanctified and transformed because salvation is a process which glorifies God and his justifying and tranforming grace. Easy believism, altar call conversions, and sinner’s prayers are all unscriptural, leading to an incorrect understanding of biblical justification. Many modern day Protestants have a false assurance that they have actually been justified. In reality, many who profess Christ are still dead in their sins and treaspasses and under the wrath of God for their sins. Therefore, Catholics are right to refute this incorrect modern day view of Protestant justification found in many Protestant churches today. James 2 is applicable to apply to those who do not have the marks of one who has been justified.

 

[Carlan]

That’s a good point. Many Protestants have a tendency to seperate justifcation too much from sanctification (process of being made like Christ). Those who have been justified will be sanctified and transformed because salvation is a process which glorifies God and his justifying and tranforming grace. Easy believism, altar call conversions, and sinner’s prayers are all unscriptural, leading to an incorrect understanding of biblical justification. Many modern day Protestants have a false assurance that they have actually been justified. In reality, many who profess Christ are still dead in their sins and treaspasses and under the wrath of God for their sins. Therefore, Catholics are right to refute this incorrect modern day view of Protestant justification found in many Protestant churches today. James 2 is applicable to apply to those who do not have the marks of one who has been justified.

So why then can’t you simply confirm that you believe the way the Catholic church understands justification, that it is not as the reformists taught,which is that justification is an instantaneous legal act of God and simply a covering over of the filth of sin.
I think all Catholic here would think better of you if you would confirm, straight up, the truths you beieve the Catholic Church teaches. Carlan

 

[fhansen]

That’s a good point. Many Protestants have a tendency to seperate justifcation too much from sanctification (process of being made like Christ). Those who have been justified will be sanctified and transformed because salvation is a process which glorifies God and his justifying and tranforming grace. Easy believism, altar call conversions, and sinner’s prayers are all unscriptural, leading to an incorrect understanding of biblical justification. Many modern day Protestants have a false assurance that they have actually been justified. In reality, many who profess Christ are still dead in their sins and treaspasses and under the wrath of God for their sins. Therefore, Catholics are right to refute this incorrect modern day view of Protestant justification found in many Protestant churches today. James 2 is applicable to apply to those who do not have the marks of one who has been justified.

If Protestants and Catholics both believe in sanctification, that is to say, they experience the power of God working in and through them in such a way as to transform them into more loving individuals, with actions or works to show for it, and the only difference is that Protestants believe sanctification to be a sign of ones justification while Catholics believe it to be a part of ones justification, why is Catholic sanctification so often compared to filthy rags?

IOW, if sanctification is a work of grace-as both believe, then why do we so often have Protestants compare Catholic sanctification-caused works with works of the law? Some go so far as to say the work of Mother Teresa or the enormous hours of giving by countless people in a myriad of ways, and the schools and universities and hospitals and orphanages and pursuit of excellence in general that the CC inspired man onto, were not, themselves, inspired by ideals and grace given by God but were works of misguided people trying to earn their way to heaven and would’ve been better left undone.

When I hear this now, it can only cause me to think those same doubters must be people who haven’t experienced much in the way of sanctification themselves.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
That’s a good point. Many Protestants have a tendency to seperate justifcation too much from sanctification (process of being made like Christ). Those who have been justified will be sanctified and transformed because salvation is a process which glorifies God and his justifying and tranforming grace. Easy believism, altar call conversions, and sinner’s prayers are all unscriptural, leading to an incorrect understanding of biblical justification. Many modern day Protestants have a false assurance that they have actually been justified. In reality, many who profess Christ are still dead in their sins and treaspasses and under the wrath of God for their sins. Therefore, Catholics are right to refute this incorrect modern day view of Protestant justification found in many Protestant churches today. James 2 is applicable to apply to those who do not have the marks of one who has been justified.

So why then can’t you simply confirm that you believe the way the Catholic church understands justification, that it is not as the reformists taught,which is that justification is an instantaneous legal act of God and simply a covering over of the filth of sin.
I think all Catholic here would think better of you if you would confirm, straight up, the truths you beieve the Catholic Church teaches. Carlan

A forensic justification is the biblical truth. Penal subsitution is the truth which glorifies what God has done for us in Christ! I think you may have missed the connection that the Spirit save whom He wills (John 3). I sincerely believe that baptismal regeneration and decisional regeneration (sinner’s prayer conversions) are both not true according to the Scirptures and what we see in life.

If baptismal regeneration and decisonal regeneration were true, all who have been baptized and all did a sinner’s prayer would be united to Christ, thus show fruits of a changed transformed life (in progressive sanctified growth).

 

[2nd_Adam]

If Protestants and Catholics both believe in sanctification, that is to say, they experience the power of God working in and through them in such a way as to transform them into more loving individuals, with actions or works to show for it, and the only difference is that Protestants believe sanctification to be a sign of ones justification while Catholics believe it to be a part of ones justification, why is Catholic sanctification so often compared to filthy rags?

It is only considered filty rags if your works done in Christ is your basis for your justificaiton before God. God will reward us for our works done in Christ, but the rewards have nothing to do with our adoption and residence in the kingdom of God. God is actually rewarding His work done in us… grace upon grace.

IOW, if sanctification is a work of grace-as both believe, then why do we so often have Protestants compare Catholic sanctification-caused works with works of the law? Some go so far as to say the work of Mother Teresa or the enormous hours of giving by countless people in a myriad of ways, and the schools and universities and hospitals and orphanages and pursuit of excellence in general that the CC inspired man onto, were not, themselves, inspired by ideals and grace given by God but were works of misguided people trying to earn their way to heaven and would’ve been better left undone.

Again, what are we putting our trust in for our reconcilation with God for justification, works done in Christ or works done by Christ on our behalf?

When I hear this now, it can only cause me to think those same doubters must be people who haven’t experienced much in the way of sanctification themselves.

I agree with that brother, sanctification is a very slow process… which God and man work together… but God will ultimately win with the process over our disobedience and struggle with our remaining flesh… for salvation brings glory to God.

 

[fhansen]

Again, what are we putting our trust in for our reconcilation with God for justification, works done in Christ or works done by Christ on our behalf?

Well in either case we’re putting our trust in the grace of God and how He wills to use it for the purpose of our salvation.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Well in either case we’re putting our trust in the grace of God and how He wills to use it for the purpose of our salvation.

Therefore, we are siblings in Christ.

 

[bookgirl32]

Easy believism.

If you believe that from the beginning you were predestined to be saved, and nothing can change that, I’m wondering how that isn’t “easy believism”? I would define “easy believism” as being assured of your salvation, with no possibility of losing that salvation, as pretty easy.

 

[2nd_Adam]

If you believe that from the beginning you were predestined to be saved, and nothing can change that, I’m wondering how that isn’t “easy believism”? I would define “easy believism” as being assured of your salvation, with no possibility of losing that salvation, as pretty easy.

Predestination is God’s work that changes the ungodly wicked sinner into the image of His Son. It is a mighty work of God and in His perfect wisdom, God uses suffering, trials, false teaching, thorn in our flesh, remaining flesh in us… to draw us closer to Him in complete dependence upon Him. Here’s a verse for you in regards to your question.

For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
-Rom 8

 

[Carlan]

I’m waiting for my certain Catholic brother to start the thread on TULIP over at the apologetics section. I don’t undestand how changing sections on Catholic Answers will change what is true.

I would think that you are the person to start the debate on the five points of Calvinism over in apologetics since you are the one convinced that Catholicism is not truth according to your education and Calvinism. As followers of Jesus Christ we Catholics believe his teachings as passed on down in the beginning by his Apostles whom he commissioned to teach not apostates such as John Calvin.Carlan.

c

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Predestination is God’s work that changes the ungodly wicked sinner into the image of His Son. It is a mighty work of God and in His perfect wisdom, God uses suffering, trials, false teaching, thorn in our flesh, remaining flesh in us… to draw us closer to Him in complete dependence upon Him. Here’s a verse for you in regards to your question.

For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For **those whom he foreknew **he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
-Rom 8

This is my third request:

What did God foreknow?

Our works? Our Faith? Our Thoughts? Our perseverence?

God’s predestination is related to his foreknowledge.

God has given all men sufficient grace for salvation. This grace becomes effective based on our response and cooperation with his grace.

 

[2nd_Adam]

This is my third request:

What did God foreknow?

Our works? Our Faith? Our Thoughts? Our perseverence?

God’s predestination is related to his foreknowledge.

God has given all men sufficient grace for salvation. This grace becomes effective based on our response and cooperation with his grace.

God knows all things in advance; it is a divine attribute of God alone.

Predestination is not linked to what God knows in advance. Do you believe God chooses certain sinners based on what an individual would do in regards to His Son? It seems you believe in self election; God chooses those who would choose Him given the right senario? Study the biblical term of foreknew which is quite different than what you seem to imply. Jacob is as wicked as Esau. Why was God pleased with Abel over Cain?

Let’s please not side track this wonderful discussion on the doctrine of justification. If you want to discuss predestination or the word foreknew… please start another thread on that particular topic.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I would think that you are the person to start the debate on the five points of Calvinism over in apologetics since you are the one convinced that Catholicism is not truth according to your education and Calvinism. As followers of Jesus Christ we Catholics believe his teachings as passed on down in the beginning by his Apostles whom he commissioned to teach not apostates such as John Calvin.Carlan.

c

Now, why in the world would I want to start a TULIP thread on the apologetics section on Catholic Answers? I’ve already had the privlidge to debate a Catholic Apologist from Catholic Answers at a Catholic Parish at the request of the Catholics in the area. All I can say is that particular Catholic apologist was the most un-Christ like person that I ever known. I don’t believe any particular branch of Christianity has the fullness of truth, including the Reformed circles. Do I believe that a forensic justification and penal subsitution is the truth which glorifies God? :yup::extrahappy: However, that is not just a Reformed distinctive.

 

[bookgirl32]

Predestination is God’s work that changes the ungodly wicked sinner into the image of His Son. It is a mighty work of God and in His perfect wisdom, God uses suffering, trials, false teaching, thorn in our flesh, remaining flesh in us… to draw us closer to Him in complete dependence upon Him. Here’s a verse for you in regards to your question.

For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
-Rom 8

But still, as far as you believe, nothing you could do, or not do, could change it. So, you really don’t have to do anything. That’s pretty easy.

 

[2nd_Adam]

But still, as far as you believe, nothing you could do, or not do, could change it. So, you really don’t have to do anything. That’s pretty easy.

That’s not bibically true. Paul tells us to press on or to push forward through the Spirit. We are called to mortify the flesh through the Spirit. Peter exhorts us to make our calling and election sure. Justification is monergistic, yet sanctification is synergistic. Meditate of this particular verse today.

1 Corinthians 15:10

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Now, why in the world would I want to start a TULIP thread on the apologetics section on Catholic Answers? ** I’ve already had the privlidge to debate a Catholic Apologist from Catholic Answers at a Catholic Parish at the request of the Catholics in the area.** All I can say is that particular Catholic apologist was the most un-Christ like person that I ever known. I don’t believe any particular branch of Christianity has the fullness of truth, including the Reformed circles. Do I believe that a forensic justification and penal subsitution is the truth which glorifies God? :yup::extrahappy: However, that is not just a Reformed distinctive.

Mind if I call you out on this? I would like to know the details: who, what, when, where, etc.?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Mind if I call you out on this? I would like to know the details: who, what, when, where, etc.?

Sure, it was in Murrieta CA about 10 or 12 year ago at Saint Marthas (I think that’s the name of the Catholic Parish in Murrieta, CA. I can give you more details later on if you want. However, the details are somewhat vauge since it happened awhile back. Catholic Answers is based out of San Diego and Anahiem CA. If you go to Mapquest, you will see that Murrieta CA is close to both San Diego and Anahiem CA.