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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
This directly impacts justification.
We are justified if we respond to and cooperate with God’s grace.
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We are justified if we respond to and cooperate with God’s grace.
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Carlan
Guest
Hmmm , so this is what you have been hoping for over here. Not had much luck, have you. You may do better going back to where you had all of your success.
:yawn:Carlan
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Actually, I have changed in 10 years. I only posted that at the request of a poster. I consider Catholics to be brothers and sisters in Christ. I’m more into ecumenicism such as ECT 1 and ECT II.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Come join us on the TULIP thread over in Apologetics. It’s not easy to find that thread over there. Is it under Sacred Scripture?
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bookgirl32
Guest
But what is he, or the grace of God, working for?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
If I understand your question, all things done by God is ultimately for His own glory. God is the most God-centered being in all creation, yet God is the Creator and was always eternal.
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Carlan
Guest
Perhaps after doing the TULIP thread you will inch a little further in your change.
Carlan
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Please join us over there. It’s lonely over at the Apologetics community. I don’t know those who hang-out in apologetics.Perhaps after doing the TULIP thread you will inch a little further in your change.
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bookgirl32
Guest
So if we go with your interpretation of it, and Paul was working for God’s glory having nothing to do with his own salvation, what would’ve happened if he didn’t do the work?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Which work are you speaking about, maybe Ephesians 2:8-10 which brings God glory?
Philippians 1
Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,
To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Thanksgiving and Prayer
I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now. And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel. For God is my witness, how I yearn for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God
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bookgirl32
Guest
The one you just said Paul was doing, to glorify God. What would’ve happened if he wouldn’t have done this?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Since Paul was not an illegimate son (bastard), God in His grace would have disciplined Paul into obedience (Hebrews 12).
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bookgirl32
Guest
WHat would the discipline have been? And for what purpose?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Discipline comes in many forms such as trials and suffering. I’m not sure if the thorn in his flesh was discipline or not. I believe we are disciplined for our good and God’s glory. Let’s look at Hebrews 12 together.
Hebrews 12
Jesus, Founder and Perfecter of Our Faith
12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Do Not Grow Weary
3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”
7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.
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bookgirl32
Guest
What good does the discipline do us?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
AND
And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God. - Phil 1
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bookgirl32
Guest
Okay, what is your interpretation of those verses? We’ve established the fact that just posting the verses doesn’t really do any good b/c we cannot infer from the verses alone the belief of the poster.
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fhansen
Guest
But we’re also talking about how God justifies. What do you do with the following verses?
Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. 1Cor 9:25-27
Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:12-14
Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Hebrews 12:14
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2nd_Adam
Guest
That’s a good question. How does the Apostle Paul write to us? It seems he always teaches with sound doctrine first, and Christian living thereafter. Because we are in Christ and have peace with God, live like this and do this and do that. The verses that you have quoted is the sanctified life in which we cooperate with God in a synergistic working out what God is working in us. We can work out this sanctified life though the Spirit. However, our justification is monergistic, in which we are a passive vessels of His mercy. Since monergism is a foreign concept with most Catholic siblings, here’s a link in what I believe in regards to monergism and synergism in regards to the doctrine of justification.
monergism.com/what_is_monergism.php
Monergism: In regeneration, the Holy Spirit unites us to Christ independent of any cooperation from our unregenerated human nature. He quickens us through the outward call cast forth by the preaching of His Word, disarms our innate hostility, removes our blindness, illumines our mind, creates understanding, turns our heart of stone to a heart of flesh – giving rise to a delight in His Word – all that we might, with our renewed affections, willingly & gladly embrace Christ. The Prophet Ezekiel inspired by the Holy Spirit asserted “I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.” (Eze 11:19, also 36:26) The Apostle Paul said, “For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.” (1 Thess 1, 4, 5). I.e. In regeneration the word does not work alone but must be accompanied by the “germination” of the Holy Spirit. And again “…you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.” (1 Pet 1:23)
The Century Dictionary defines it as follows:
“In theology, the doctrine that the Holy Spirit is the only efficient agent in regeneration - that the human will possesses no inclination to holiness until regenerated, and therefore cannot cooperate in regeneration.”
It means that the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly comes to us through regeneration – and if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, he/she ignores the teaching of the Apostles, for Paul says, “…Even when we were dead in sins, [God] hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved.” and “…he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5) And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10).
It is in contrast to synergism which the Century Dictionary defines as
“…the doctrine that there are two efficient agents in regeneration, namely the human will and the divine Spirit, which, in the strict sense of the term, cooperate. This theory accordingly holds that the soul has not lost in the fall all inclination toward holiness, nor all power to seek for it under the influence of ordinary motives.”
For more in-depth treatment of this topic click here…
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guanophore
Guest
wow. This is the first time I have heard this.
The Apostles called this sanctification. Except that they taught this does not happen with ungodly sinners, but only adopted sons.
This is consistent with what the Apostles committed to the Church as sanctification.
No. God chooses based upon how indivduals respond to His grace. He has given sufficient grace for everyone to come to the knowledge of the Truth. Some choose not to do so.
The elect are those that respond to God’s grace. He calls them in grace, they respond in grace, they are Elect by grace. It is all God’s grace. All we can add to it is ourselves, and we can only do that by grace.
On what basis do you make this claim?
Abel was faithful and obedient, and Cain was not.
Youre the one who suggested that a bible study be done!
Because that is the discussion you are really inviting when you start threads that say “Defending the Catholic Faith”. It doesn’t make any sense to post this in the NC forum.
You might also do that because you believe TULIP is “biblical theology” and Catholics don’t. You might be interested to learn why Catholics don’t believe that. This is what Apologetics is about.
I am sorry that you had such a terrible experience. Given this, it is no wonder you are gun shy here. Hopefully, love will cover a multitude of sins, and you will have a healing experience here. I will do my best to make sure that happens.
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