Justification - Catholics and Protestants

[E.E.N.S]

We also earnestly call back erring professing evangelicals who have deviated from God’s Word in the matters discussed in this Declaration. This includes those who declare that there is hope of eternal life apart from explicit faith in Jesus Christ, who claim that those who reject Christ in this life will be annihilated rather than endure the just judgment of God through eternal suffering, or who claim that evangelicals and Roman Catholics are one in Jesus Christ even where the biblical doctrine of justification is not believed.

Why is it that so often when Protestants are speaking of the Church they use the term “Roman” when they obviously mean the entire Catholic Church? The Roman Rite is just 1 of over 20 rites within the Catholic Church, yet 90% just “Roman Church” or “RCC” or whathaveyou…

Is it because you know that using “Roman” pejoratively will help unite all the other Protestants reading this to your particular swing of rhetoric, even when they would normally disagree with TULIP? Or is it that you have that much of a disgust for the Holy Catholic Church that you can’t help yourself but to use such semi-subversive behavior?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Why is it that so often when Protestants are speaking of the Church they use the term “Roman” when they obviously mean the entire Catholic Church? The Roman Rite is just 1 of over 20 rites within the Catholic Church, yet 90% just “Roman Church” or “RCC” or whathaveyou…

Is it because you know that using “Roman” pejoratively will help unite all the other Protestants reading this to your particular swing of rhetoric, even when they would normally disagree with TULIP? Or is it that you have that much of a disgust for the Holy Catholic Church that you can’t help yourself but to use such semi-subversive behavior?

Do you understand that I posted part of an official document called the Cambridge Declaration? Those are not my words. The only reason I posted the Cambridge Declaration is to refute guanophore’s statement in which he posted that we are not divided over the doctrine of justification. The Cambridge Declaration signed by Lutherans, Baptists, Congregationalist, Anglicans, Reformed, Presybeterians, and other Evangelical leaders are declaring that we are divided on the doctrine of justification. Therefore, note the thread topic.

 

[E.E.N.S]

This is very important, too. 2nd has made it clear from the beginning that he is not here to learn, but to evangelize. He believes, as he has said, that the “theological distinctives” are not important. He believes that Catholicism really has nothing to do with people getting saved, that God has a “remnant” in all congregations. He is here to "connect’ to the remnant and “stir the flame” of faith in those who are Elect. He does not believe that all people are supposed to be saved, and that God is going to save those He plans to save, no matter what.

In spite of all that, I do think he has learned a lot since he came here. He asks a lot of good questions (most of them off topic) and if he is not too anxious, really does read the answers. What is most important in a case like this are the lurkers. Others have his same questions, and will benefit from reading, even if he does not. All we can do is plant seeds.

Hey brother,

That’s a slanderous statement and a lie. That’s the second low blow from you within 24 hours. I would appreciate it if you did not speak for me, or put words in my mouth.

2nd Adam, I wouldn’t go so far as to call it slander, nor a lie, as from my perspective guanophore described your attitude quite accurately. So if it is not the case, perhaps you should be more aware of how you are representing your position.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Why is it that so often when Protestants are speaking of the Church they use the term “Roman” when they obviously mean the entire Catholic Church? The Roman Rite is just 1 of over 20 rites within the Catholic Church, yet 90% just “Roman Church” or “RCC” or whathaveyou…

Is it because you know that using “Roman” pejoratively will help unite all the other Protestants reading this to your particular swing of rhetoric, even when they would normally disagree with TULIP? Or is it that you have that much of a disgust for the Holy Catholic Church that you can’t help yourself but to use such semi-subversive behavior?

And they leave out good people like guanophore who is not a Latin Rite Catholic. Although I wont hold that against him if nobody else does.

God bless

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Do you understand that I posted part of an official document called the Cambridge Declaration? Those are not my words.

I understood it (see my comment to your post) but I can see why someone may take them as your words. I don’t believe E.E.N.S. did either. He/she was just posting in general terms, not to you directly. In the future you could use the quotes bracket so it makes it easier to see that they are not your words.

God bless

 

[E.E.N.S]

Do you understand that I posted part of an official document called the Cambridge Declaration? Those are not my words.

Of course I do, that is why I wasked why PROTESTANTS speak in this fashion. Do they honestly think that only 1 of the 20-some rites of the Catholic Church believe this way? In many official documents, protestant apologists, as well as the typical protestant poster on these (and other) fora, all tend to speak in the same manner (I refer here to the use of the term “Roman” etc.)…and I also extended that question to yourself, as you have done the same thing on occasion in several of your posts.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam, I wouldn’t go so far as to call it slander, nor a lie, as from my perspective guanophore described your attitude quite accurately. So if it is not the case, perhaps you should be more aware of how you are representing your position.

I think it’s important not to try to judge other people’s attitude or put words in their mouth. We cant’ speak for another person, especially someone who is in a different branch of Christianity than yourself. I aready saw what happened to Tweetymon, and she’s Catholic. I think we have very good moderators who will tell us if we are out of line.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

2nd Adam:

The Cambridge Declaration signed by Lutherans, Baptists, Congregationalist, Anglicans, Reformed, Presybeterians, and other Evangelical leaders are declaring that we are divided on the doctrine of justification

Anglicans, Lutherans, Baptists, Congregationalist, Reformed, Presybeterians and other Evangelicals are all divided amongst themselves on a wide variety of doctrines. In fact, the only thing they appear to all be united in is their division with Catholicism

God bless

 

[2nd_Adam]

Anglicans, Lutherans, Baptists, Congregationalist, Reformed, Presybeterians and other Evangelicals are all divided amongst themselves on a wide variety of doctrines. In fact, the only thing they appear to all be united in is their division with Catholicism

God bless

That’s a good one. But if you read the Cambridge Declaration and get on the Alliance of Confessing Evangeicals, you will find much unity. I don’t think those Evangelicals think about the Catholic Faith much. It appears their unity is from historic Protestantism which is tied with the solas of the Reformation, that’s all.

 

[E.E.N.S]

I think it’s important not to try to judge other people’s attitude or put words in their mouth. We cant’ speak for another person, especially someone who is in a different branch of Christianity than yourself. I aready saw what happened to Tweetymon, and she’s Catholic. I think we have very good moderators who will tell us if we are out of line.

I would agree with you, that being said I still think that guanophore gave an accurate description of how you have been representing yourself on these fora - he did not put words in your mouth, IMO.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I would agree with you, that being said I still think that guanophore gave an accurate description of how you have been representing yourself on these fora - he did not put words in your mouth, IMO.

Well, we all read each other’s post with tinted glasses. We all have our presuppositons and are personal history. Do you believe his posting below glorifies God?

Originally Posted by guanophore
Go easy, EENS. I think he is just a bundle of nerves and missed it. He has post traumatic stress disorder from Catholic Apologists

.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

That’s a good one. But if you read the Cambridge Declaration and get on the Alliance of Confessing Evangeicals, you will find much unity. I don’t think those Evangelicals think about the Catholic Faith much. It appears their unity is from historic Protestantism which is tied with the solas of the Reformation, that’s all.

Well there is going to be much unity between any two Christian churches as long as they are Christian churches of course. My point is, why do they allow such division and discrepancies among themselves, but draw the line with the doctrines which are particularly Catholic?

For instance, how can a Baptist take issue with the Catholic beliefs in baptism and communion and then turn around and sign a declaration (like the Cambridge Declaration) with a Lutheran and an Anglican who are much closer to Catholicism in these beliefs than to the Baptists?

God bless

 

[E.E.N.S]

Well, we all read each other’s post with tinted glasses. We all have our presuppositons and are personal history. Do you believe his posting below glorifies God?

.

I don’t presume to know the answer to that, but I think it was a lighthearted statement either way. Don’t forget he chastised me for being sharp with you on more than one occasion, which being a fraternal correction I believe does glorify God.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Well there is going to be much unity between any two Christian churches as long as they are Christian churches of course. My point is, why do they allow such division and discrepancies among themselves, but draw the line with the doctrines which are particularly Catholic?

For instance, how can a Baptist take issue with the Catholic beliefs in baptism and communion and then turn around and sign a declaration (like the Cambridge Declaration) with a Lutheran and an Anglican who are much closer to Catholicism in these beliefs than to the Baptists?

God bless

If you read the Cambridge Declaration, it is unity based on the 5 solas which includes a forensic justification. I think beyond the solas, then other doctrines are considered less essential. If you read the 39 Articles of Faith for the Anglican Church, it reads extremely Calvinistic. In addition, the phrase faith alone which binds historic Protetstants came from Luther. And yes, I see a tough juggle for Lutherans with faith alone and their view of baptism.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I don’t presume to know the answer to that, but I think it was a lighthearted statement either way. Don’t forget he chastised me for being sharp with you on more than one occasion, which being a fraternal correction I believe does glorify God.

You could be right, but it’s hard to tell. Nobody said this would be easy. BTW, what do you think about ECT 1 and ECTII? Would you approve of an ECT 3?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

If you read the Cambridge Declaration, it is unity based on the 5 solas which includes a forensic justification. I think beyond the solas, then other doctrines are considered less essential.

2nd Adam have you ever read about the Marburg Colloquy between Luther and Zwingli in, I believe, 1529? I think you would have a hard time convincing any one who has read about it (let alone convincing Martin Luther) that their disagreement over communion was “less essential” especially with Luther calling Zwingli a pawn of the devil (or something along those lines) for denying the Real Presence. Sounds very non-essential to me.

You don’t think that whether or not Baptism washes away sin, or that infants need to be baptized or that belief in baptismal regeneration are not factors involving Justification and are, futhermore, not essential?

God bless

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam have you ever read about the Marburg Colloquy between Luther and Zwingli in, I believe, 1529? I think you would have a hard time convincing any one who has read about it (let alone convincing Martin Luther) that their disagreement over communion was “less essential” especially with Luther calling Zwingli a pawn of the devil (or something along those lines) for denying the Real Presence. Sounds very non-essential to me.

You don’t think that whether or not Baptism washes away sin, or that infants need to be baptized or that belief in baptismal regeneration are not factors involving Justification and are, futhermore, not essential?

God bless

You are right to bring up the historic divisions between the Reformers. However, it is almost 500 years later, and it’s time to move forward in redemptive history. Should I divide with other Protestants who see the sacraments differently from me? Of course not. Heck, I’m an ecumenical Calvinist. BTW, JI Packer signed the ECT agreements. He is quite the gifted Reformed theologian. Therefore, I’m following his lead. Chuck Colson credited RC Sproul for his conversion. And we know how ecueminical Chuck Colson is in regards to ECT. I’m not Lutheran, so I don’t have to juggle baptismal regeneration with faith alone. However, I do support infant baptism but I attend a non-denominational Baptist Church.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

You are right to bring up the historic divisions betweem the Reformers. However, it is almost 500 years later, and it’s time to move forward in redemptive history.

But you (or I guess I should say the Cambridge Declaration) don’t wish to move forward with things in regards to Catholics:

We also earnestly call back erring professing evangelicals who have deviated from God’s Word in the matters discussed in this Declaration. This includes those who declare that there is hope of eternal life apart from explicit faith in Jesus Christ, who claim that those who reject Christ in this life will be annihilated rather than endure the just judgment of God through eternal suffering,** or who claim that evangelicals and Roman Catholics are one in Jesus Christ even where the biblical doctrine of justification is not believed**.

That doesn’t sound like an attitude which wished to move forward. It sounds like, to me, they wish to ignore/justify/over look their own glaring divisions and conflicting doctrines to focus on their unity against Catholicism. And on top of that, some of their difference they take issue with amongst Catholicism is found within their own little circle (see Lutherans and Anglicans).

Honestly 2nd Adam, you don’t see anything hypocritical about that? At all? Saying Catholics can’t be “one in Christ” because of this and that belief because it is essential only to turn the other cheek on these essentials when they come to eachother

God bless

 

[2nd_Adam]

But you (or I guess I should say the Cambridge Declaration) don’t wish to move forward with things in regards to Catholics:

That doesn’t sound like an attitude which wished to move forward. It sounds like, to me, they wish to ignore/justify/over look their own glaring divisions and conflicting doctrines to focus on their unity against Catholicism. And on top of that, some of their difference they take issue with amongst Catholicism is found within their own little circle (see Lutherans and Anglicans).

Honestly 2nd Adam, you don’t see anything hypocritical about that? At all? Saying Catholics can’t be “one in Christ” because of this and that belief because it is essential only to turn the other cheek on these essentials when they come to eachother

God bless

I think you have to look at the history of the Cambridge Declaration. It was one of several responses within Evangelical circles in regards to ECT 1 and ECT II. Those ECT agreements caused quite a shake-up in both Evangelical and Catholic circles. Some Evangelical leaders were ready to seperate from JI Packer for selling out the Reformers.

 

[guanophore]

Okay, I think you are right. Would it be okay to start a follow up thread called “Catholics need to read their Bibles - part 2”?

Yes, you can start any thread you want, as long as you don’t violate the forum rules. If you still think you can pursuade Catholics to become Calvanists by posting this sort of thing, by all means go for it!

I would have to disagree with your conclusion brother. Please read the end of the Cambridge Declaration which is signed by Lutherans, Anglicans, Baptists, Presbyterians, and other Evangelical leaders. You will find what divides us from our perspective is the doctrine of justification.

reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://reformed.org/documents/cambridge.html

The faithfulness of the evangelical church in the past contrasts sharply with its unfaithfulness in the present. Earlier in this century, evangelical churches sustained a remarkable missionary endeavor, and built many religious institutions to serve the cause of biblical truth and Christ’s kingdom. That was a time when Christian behavior and expectations were markedly different from those in the culture. Today they often are not. The evangelical world today is losing its biblical fidelity, moral compass and missionary zeal.

We repent of our worldliness. We have been influenced by the “gospels” of our secular culture, which are no gospels. We have weakened the church by our own lack of serious repentance, our blindness to the sins in ourselves which we see so clearly in others, and our inexcusable failure adequately to tell others about God’s saving work in Jesus Christ.

We also earnestly call back erring professing evangelicals who have deviated from God’s Word in the matters discussed in this Declaration. This includes those who declare that there is hope of eternal life apart from explicit faith in Jesus Christ, who claim that those who reject Christ in this life will be annihilated rather than endure the just judgment of God through eternal suffering, or who claim that evangelicals and Roman Catholics are one in Jesus Christ even where the biblical doctrine of justification is not believed.

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals asks all Christians to give consideration to implementing this Declaration in the church’s worship, ministry, policies, life and evangelism. For Christ’s sake. Amen.​

ACE Council Members:
Dr. John Armstrong
Rev. Alistair Begg
Dr. James M. Boice
Dr. W. Robert Godfrey
Dr. John D. Hannah
Dr. Michael S. Horton
Mrs. Rosemary Jensen
Dr. R. Albert Mohler Jr.
Dr. Robert M. Norris
Dr. R. C. Sproul
Dr. G. Edward Veith
Dr. David Wells
Dr. Luder Whitlock
Dr. J. A. O. Preus, III

The Cambridge Declaration is a response to ECT 1 and ECT II. In addition, from the Cambridge Declaration came the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

alliancenet.org/

Who We Are

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is a broad coalition of evangelical Christians from various denominations, including Baptist, Congregational (Independent), Anglican (Episcopal), Presbyterian, Reformed, and Lutheran. The purpose of the Alliance’s existence is to call the Church, amidst a dying culture, to repent of its worldliness, to recover and confess the truth of God’s Word as did the reformers, and to see that truth embodied in doctrine, worship, and life.

Remember, I believe in a forensic justification in which you called heresy. So, since you posted that we are not divided over the doctrine of justification, do you believe in heresy too?

No, forensic justification is not heresy. It is just a small part of justification, and is incomplete in expression. We are not just “declared” righteous, but MADE righteous. He does not “credit to our account” something imaginary, but something REAL. The legal part of the writ against us being nailed to the cross is a small aspect of being justified.