Justification - Catholics and Protestants

[2nd_Adam]

Yes, you can start any thread you want, as long as you don’t violate the forum rules. If you still think you can pursuade Catholics to become Calvanists by posting this sort of thing, by all means go for it!

No, forensic justification is not heresy. It is just a small part of justification, and is incomplete in expression. We are not just “declared” righteous, but MADE righteous. He does not “credit to our account” something imaginary, but something REAL. The legal part of the writ against us being nailed to the cross is a small aspect of being justified.

I thought you posted that a forensic justification was heresy? Do you want to recant? According to Scripture we are declared righteous (justification) and made righteous (sanctification).

Abraham Justified by Faith

4:1 What then shall we say was gained by [1] Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in [2] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. - Rom 4

 

[guanophore]

But even you have said that you consider Catholics as brothers and sisters to you in Christ, so even you are at odds with the above declaration which states Catholic and Protestants are not one in Christ.

God bless

He believes there are a “remnant” within Catholicism that are among the elect. These actually reject Catholic doctrine (like Tweetymom) but continue to call themselves “Catholic”. these people can be saved, as long as they don’t embrace what the Catholic Church teaches about justification, or so I gather from the link.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I think you have to look at the history of the Cambridge Declaration. It was one of several responses witin Evangelical circles in regards to ECT 1 and ECT II. Those ECT agreements cause quite a shake-up in both Evangelical and Catholic circles. Some Evangelical leaders were ready to seperate from JI Packer for selling out the Reformers.

That didn’t answer my question though.

These people who signed this Declaration want to have their cake and to eat it to. They want to draw distinctions between themselves and Catholics which draw the line where someone can be “one in Christ” and where someone cannot be. But then when these distinctions in beliefs come up amongst themselves they give a big ‘oh well its time to move forward. Unless you’re Catholic’.

Do you not agree? How can they turn their cheek the other way in the differences in beliefs between Luthers/Anglicans and Baptist/Congregationalists and yet wish to focus on the differences between of them and Catholics when the very difference they are focusing on with Catholicism are found within their own circle.

Are you seriously not seeing it how I am seeing it?

God bless

 

[2nd_Adam]

He believes there are a “remnant” within Catholicism that are among the elect. These actually reject Catholic doctrine (like Tweetymom) but continue to call themselves “Catholic”. these people can be saved, as long as they don’t embrace what the Catholic Church teaches about justification, or so I gather from the link.

There you go again, putting words in my mouth. Why do you do that? You sure like to speak for me, but you are incorrect when you do. I’ve never posted anything remotely in what you stated above. It would do you good to study ECT 1, ECT II, and the Joint Declaration between Lutherans and Catholics.

 

[guanophore]

Hey brother,

That’s a slanderous statement and a lie. That’s the second low blow from you within 24 hours. I would appreciate it if you did not speak for me, or put words in my mouth.

I hope you will take this opportunity to correct me where I am in error.

It is not “low” for someone to come here for purposes other than learning about the Catholic faith. You have said repeatedly that you want to share with the"remnant’ within the Catholic Church that are the Elect. You are here looking for people that accept the biblical doctrine of justification as the Alliance perceives it. There is nothing “low” or wrong about this. Look, you found Tweety! I am not sure how many others you have found, but I am sure they exist.

Besides, NC religions specifically states that it is to compare and contrast beliefs. That does not include you having a “teachable spirit” or accepting any Catholic doctrine. That is not a requirement here.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I hope you will take this opportunity to correct me where I am in error.

It is not “low” for someone to come here for purposes other than learning about the Catholic faith. You have said repeatedly that you want to share with the"remnant’ within the Catholic Church that are the Elect. You are here looking for people that accept the biblical doctrine of justification as the Alliance perceives it. There is nothing “low” or wrong about this. Look, you found Tweety! I am not sure how many others you have found, but I am sure they exist.

Besides, NC religions specifically states that it is to compare and contrast beliefs. That does not include you having a “teachable spirit” or accepting any Catholic doctrine. That is not a requirement here.

I think it’s time to put you on ignore. How do you do that?

 

[guanophore]

Do you understand that I posted part of an official document called the Cambridge Declaration? Those are not my words. The only reason I posted the Cambridge Declaration is to refute guanophore’s statement in which he posted that we are not divided over the doctrine of justification. The Cambridge Declaration signed by Lutherans, Baptists, Congregationalist, Anglicans, Reformed, Presybeterians, and other Evangelical leaders are declaring that we are divided on the doctrine of justification. Therefore, note the thread topic.

This does not bode well for you, 2nd. You have been masquerading with these links in your signature, as if you are honestly promoting that the Pope agrees with the Cambridge declaration. You spent an entire thread trying to promote that Catholic sources agreed with Luther, now you are saying that this doctrine you claim we share, is actually what divides.

 

[E.E.N.S]

For those whom the Spirit united to Christ, are eternal brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of our personal religious communities and denominations. There is a remnant chosen by grace according to Scripture.

He believes there are a “remnant” within Catholicism that are among the elect. These actually reject Catholic doctrine (like Tweetymom) but continue to call themselves “Catholic”. these people can be saved, as long as they don’t embrace what the Catholic Church teaches about justification, or so I gather from the link.

There you go again, putting words in my mouth. Why do you do that? You sure like to speak for me, but you are incorrect when you do. I’ve never posted anything remotely in what you stated above. It would do you good to study ECT 1, ECT II, and the Joint Declaration between Lutherans and Catholics.

2nd Adam, it looks like you did say something at least remotely similar to what guanophore said.

 

[guanophore]

2nd Adam, I wouldn’t go so far as to call it slander, nor a lie, as from my perspective guanophore described your attitude quite accurately. So if it is not the case, perhaps you should be more aware of how you are representing your position.

Yes, and please “sharpen my iron” by showing me my fault.

 

[tweetymom]

I wrote the mods to remind them it was over, and to point out that the posts were off topic, just in case they missed it.

As I did!

 

[tweetymom]

I think it’s time to put you on ignore. How do you do that?

When you find out let me know

 

[tweetymom]

No one has forgotten you Tweety, on the contrary, there is a group of us praying for you everyday.

Every day you don’t post something uncatholic under the guise of being Catholic is another day I don’t need to draw any attention to the discrepancy between what you post, and what you claim to believe.

You might want to check out the TULIP thread in Apologetics though, because I managed to find a way to bring you up over there!

Thank you so much for the prayers, and I will post my beliefs anytime I have something to sy that I feel if from God. Don’t read it if you don’t like what I say. As I have said before I really don’t care what you think or don’t think of me it is unimportant. Sometimes you make me crack up laughting you are so off base.

 

[bookgirl32]

Hey brother,

That’s a slanderous statement and a lie. That’s the second low blow from you within 24 hours. I would appreciate it if you did not speak for me, or put words in my mouth.

What part of this exactly is a lie?

He believes, as he has said, that the “theological distinctives” are not important. He believes that Catholicism really has nothing to do with people getting saved, that God has a “remnant” in all congregations. He is here to "connect’ to the remnant and “stir the flame” of faith in those who are Elect. He does not believe that all people are supposed to be saved, and that God is going to save those He plans to save, no matter what.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam, it looks like you did say something at least remotely similar to what guanophore said.

There is a remnant chosen by grace in every Christian community. This is what Jesus taught in the Scriptures. The Protestant Churches have their sheep and goats too just like the Catholic and Orthodox communities. I think Guanophore added way more than what I posted or personally believe. Even the Catholic Church teaches something similar because it is Biblical. I’ve always posted that it is not what you know, but rather who you know. Heck, most modern day Protestants are quite clueless in regards to a forensic justification.

 

[bookgirl32]

The only reason I posted the Cambridge Declaration is to refute guanophore’s statement in which he posted that we are not divided over the doctrine of justification. The Cambridge Declaration signed by Lutherans, Baptists, Congregationalist, Anglicans, Reformed, Presybeterians, and other Evangelical leaders are declaring that we are divided on the doctrine of justification. Therefore, note the thread topic.

Wait a minute, a few threads ago you were just misrepresenting the Pope’s words to show that we are not divided, as you claim we so often think. So now you’re saying we definitely are?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Wait a minute, a few threads ago you were just misrepresenting the Pope’s words to show that we are not divided, as you claim we so often think. So now you’re saying we definitely are?

Oh, I have received the Pope’s teaching on the doctrine of justification as well as the Catholic college Professor’s teaching on the doctrine of justification. PETER KREEFT was a signer on both ECT 1 and ECT II, together with JI Packer (gifted Reformed Theologian). How can I misrepresent the Pope’s teaching on justification if I have posted the link to his entire work?

 

[fhansen]

That’s a good one. But if you read the Cambridge Declaration and get on the Alliance of Confessing Evangeicals, you will find much unity. I don’t think those Evangelicals think about the Catholic Faith much. It appears their unity is from historic Protestantism which is tied with the solas of the Reformation, that’s all.

I’ve read the declaration and have one question. Do Evangelicals. et al, believe that our cooperation with Gods grace* is* necessary in the process of sanctification?

 

[2nd_Adam]

What part of this exactly is a lie?

Originally Posted by guanophore
He believes there are a “remnant” within Catholicism that are among the elect. These actually reject Catholic doctrine (like Tweetymom) but continue to call themselves “Catholic”. these people can be saved, as long as they don’t embrace what the Catholic Church teaches about justification, or so I gather from the link.

Here’s more personal slander and a lie from guanohore. He seems to be so insecure in what he believes, that he has to attack me personally with untrue statements.

 

[bookgirl32]

Oh, I have received the Pope’s teaching on the doctrine of justification as well as the Catholic college Professor’s teaching on the doctrine of justification. PETER KREEFT was a signer on both ECT 1 and ECT II, together with JI Packer (gifted Reformed Theologian). How can I misrepresent the Pope’s teaching on justification if I have posted the link to his entire work?

Let’s go back. You posted a thread stating that the Pope agrees with Luther. (posting his “entire link” to prove it, which did not do so). You spent the whole thread claiming over and over again that he agrees with Luther and Catholics don’t know it. In this thread, you just said this:

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
The only reason I posted the Cambridge Declaration is to*** refute ***guanophore’s statement in which he posted that we are not divided over the doctrine of justification.

What do you have to refute if you believe that we are not divided by the doctrine of justification?

 

[bookgirl32]

Here’s more personal slander and a lie from guanohore. He seems to be so insecure in what he believes, that he has to attack me personally with untrue statements.

I wasn’t questioning if you believe it to be a lie, I was just wondering exactly what out of this quote

He believes, as he has said, that the “theological distinctives” are not important. He believes that Catholicism really has nothing to do with people getting saved, that God has a “remnant” in all congregations. He is here to "connect’ to the remnant and “stir the flame” of faith in those who are Elect. He does not believe that all people are supposed to be saved, and that God is going to save those He plans to save, no matter what.

is misrepresenting your position?