Justification Confusion as declared

[CopticChristian]

The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church defines Justification as sonship and is outlined in the Council of Trent. Many Protestants see Justification as an external act. Working through this I am confused. Here is what I came up with. Does this sound correct?

To have Faith that Justifies you must be born again and regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Justification has nothing to do with inner moral transformation. It is only a external, forensic, legal, juridical, extrinsic act of God in His actions as a Judge, imputing Christ’s righteousness to my heavenly account.

There appears to be an inconsistency.

To be justified you have to have Faith. To have Justifying Faith you need to be reborn through the Holy Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit that gives you Faith.

I am justified legally by Faith alone apart from any moral transformation although that moral transformation occurred prior to the justification and the Faith that justifies is the result of the inner transformation of the soul brought about by the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration is required to have Faith that justifies and then declare Justification to be a legal act.

It also appears that regeneration occurs on account of something that is done, a work. It appears that there is an inner transformation and yet justification is considered only external.

 

[JonNC]

The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church defines Justification as sonship and is outlined in the Council of Trent. Many Protestants see Justification as an external act. Working through this I am confused. Here is what I came up with. Does this sound correct?

To have Faith that Justifies you must be born again and regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Justification has nothing to do with inner moral transformation. It is only a external, forensic, legal, juridical, extrinsic act of God in His actions as a Judge, imputing Christ’s righteousness to my heavenly account.

There appears to be an inconsistency.

To be justified you have to have Faith. To have Justifying Faith you need to be reborn through the Holy Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit that gives you Faith.

I am justified legally by Faith alone apart from any moral transformation although that moral transformation occurred prior to the justification and the Faith that justifies is the result of the inner transformation of the soul brought about by the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration is required to have Faith that justifies and then declare Justification to be a legal act.

It also appears that regeneration occurs on account of something that is done, a work. It appears that there is an inner transformation and yet justification is considered only external.

Perhaps Luther’s short quote here might help.

" There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow."

I’m not sure I understand your statement that Justification has nothing to do with inner moral transformation. True justification means that there is a growing tranformation of life, not all at once, to be sure. Sanctification is a growth in grace. Lutherans say we are at once saint and sinner, but following that is, if there is true justification, a growing to be more the saint and less the sinner.

Does that help?

Jon

 

[CopticChristian]

Perhaps Luther’s short quote here might help.

I’m not sure I understand your statement that Justification has nothing to do with inner moral transformation. True justification means that there is a growing tranformation of life, not all at once, to be sure. Sanctification is a growth in grace. Lutherans say we are at once saint and sinner, but following that is, if there is true justification, a growing to be more the saint and less the sinner.

Does that help?

Jon

My understanding, and I can find you the resources if you like, Sanctification is not a biblical doctrine. Justification is an ongoing process similar to being born, adolescence, teen, adult. In my understanding as a child of God I am justified, I am being justified and I will continue to be justified. Sanctification as declared by Calvin does not hold up to Biblical scrutiny as I understand it. I will look for the sources. I know I have them. If you want them I will produce them.

 

[JonNC]

My understanding, and I can find you the resources if you like, Sanctification is not a biblical doctrine. Justification is an ongoing process similar to being born, adolescence, teen, adult. In my understanding as a child of God I am justified, I am being justified and I will continue to be justified. Sanctification as declared by Calvin does not hold up to Biblical scrutiny as I understand it. I will look for the sources. I know I have them. If you want them I will produce them.

So, just to get beyond the terms a bit, perhaps we could agree that we are justified by grace through faith, and that we grow in that grace. If you wish to say you are continuing to be justified, because of grace, I won’t take issue with that.

Jon

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church defines Justification as sonship and is outlined in the Council of Trent. Many Protestants see Justification as an external act. Working through this I am confused. Here is what I came up with. Does this sound correct?

To have Faith that Justifies you must be born again and regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Justification has nothing to do with inner moral transformation. It is only a external, forensic, legal, juridical, extrinsic act of God in His actions as a Judge, imputing Christ’s righteousness to my heavenly account.

There appears to be an inconsistency.

To be justified you have to have Faith. To have Justifying Faith you need to be reborn through the Holy Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit that gives you Faith.

I am justified legally by Faith alone apart from any moral transformation although that moral transformation occurred prior to the justification and the Faith that justifies is the result of the inner transformation of the soul brought about by the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration is required to have Faith that justifies and then declare Justification to be a legal act.

It also appears that regeneration occurs on account of something that is done, a work. It appears that there is an inner transformation and yet justification is considered only external.

After reading twice, I gave up. Big confusion, so many words… Let me see…

Justification has nothing to do with inner moral transformation.

How come? There is no “inner transformation”?

imputing Christ’s righteousness to my heavenly account.

Account? This is not a nice metaphor. Yes, an account is something “external”. But there is no account here.

To have Justifying Faith you need to be reborn through the Holy Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit that gives you Faith.

The Holy Trinity is used here mechanically, it seems…

I am justified legally by Faith alone apart from any moral transformation

Impossible the Justification done by Faith Alone.

There must be a debate around and you are using Words that belong to that debate. sorry for not following you but from an external point of view you are not defining the terms correctly, at least under the Catholic Point of View. Unless I am not seeing what i sould see…

 

[CopticChristian]

After reading twice, I gave up. Big confusion, so many words… Let me see…
How come? There is no “inner transformation”?
Account? This is not a nice metaphor. Yes, an account is something “external”. But there is no account here.
The Holy Trinity is used here mechanically, it seems…
Impossible the Justification done by Faith Alone.

There must be a debate around and you are using Words that belong to that debate. sorry for not following you but from an external point of view you are not defining the terms correctly, at least under the Catholic Point of View. Unless I am not seeing what i sould see…

The Protestant, not necessarily Lutheran, position on Justification is that there is an internal regeneration that allows you to have Faith. The Justification is an external declaration. In other words the Holy Spirit is capable of doing a work and transforming you. God justifies by Faith, externally, imputed legally, not actually so that there is no internal justification. Protestants as I understand it believe that they are declared acquited criminals. If God justifies externally only, this limits God, to only justifying as if not actually.

 

[CopticChristian]

After reading twice, I gave up. Big confusion, so many words… Let me see…
How come? There is no “inner transformation”?
Account? This is not a nice metaphor. Yes, an account is something “external”. But there is no account here.
The Holy Trinity is used here mechanically, it seems…
Impossible the Justification done by Faith Alone.

There must be a debate around and you are using Words that belong to that debate. sorry for not following you but from an external point of view you are not defining the terms correctly, at least under the Catholic Point of View. Unless I am not seeing what i sould see…

I understand your confusion. It is my understanding that the Protestant says that justification is imputation of the righteousness of Christ. All Catholics and Protestants agree that we are sinners. By one man sin entered the world we are children of Adam.

Paul says in Romans:

19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

And the same greek word is used as translated made righteous, katestathēsan. So the Protestant is saying that we are sinners by Adam but by Christ we are only declared righteous not actually righteous. This suggests that Adam did not declare us sinners, his act made us sinners and Christ who can do anything only declares us righteuos, according to the Protestant, but cannot make us actually righteous. We only look righteous.

This does not appear to be what Paul is saying. Made sinners. Made righteous.

I know it is confusing.

 

[hn160]

The Augsburg states this in Article VI - New Obedience:

1 Our churches teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruit [Galatians 5:22–23]. It is necessary to do good works commanded by God [Ephesians 2:10], because of God’s will. We should not rely on those works to merit justification before God.
2 The forgiveness of sins and justification is received through faith. The voice of Christ testifies, “So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty’*” (Luke 17:10). 3 The Fathers teach the same thing. Ambrose says, “It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving forgiveness of sins, without works, through faith alone.”

Concordia : The Lutheran Confessions. Edited by Paul Timothy McCain. St. Louis, MO : Concordia Publishing House, 2005, S. 33

The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent states this on Justification in the Sixth Session, Chapter X:

Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, “Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity.”

 

[CopticChristian]

The Augsburg states this in Article VI - New Obedience:

1 Our churches teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruit [Galatians 5:22–23]. It is necessary to do good works commanded by God [Ephesians 2:10], because of God’s will. We should not rely on those works to merit justification before God.
2 The forgiveness of sins and justification is received through faith. The voice of Christ testifies, “So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty’*” (Luke 17:10). 3 The Fathers teach the same thing. Ambrose says, “It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving forgiveness of sins, without works, through faith alone.”

Concordia : The Lutheran Confessions. Edited by Paul Timothy McCain. St. Louis, MO : Concordia Publishing House, 2005, S. 33

The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent states this on Justification in the Sixth Session, Chapter X:

Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, “Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity.”

As I said previously the understanding that causes confusion is not necessarily Lutheran.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I understand your confusion. It is my understanding that the Protestant says that justification is imputation of the righteousness of Christ. All Catholics and Protestants agree that we are sinners. By one man sin entered the world we are children of Adam.

Paul says in Romans:

And the same greek word is used as translated made righteous, katestathēsan. So the Protestant is saying that we are sinners by Adam but by Christ we are only declared righteous not actually righteous. This suggests that Adam did not declare us sinners, his act made us sinners and Christ who can do anything only declares us righteuos, according to the Protestant, but cannot make us actually righteous. We only look righteous.

This does not appear to be what Paul is saying. Made sinners. Made righteous.

I know it is confusing.

Thanks for the explanation. Actually, I knew it and studied it some time ago when I read a book on the subject. But I forgot the details.

I had some interest in the Protestant Doctrine till I found that that is a losing proposition. There are 200 churches each one with 200 Statements on Faith. I gave up when once upon¨a day I discovered a Church that said that only 140 thousand (the number I think is close but it is not that of the Apocalypse) would be saved and were transcripting the baptism registry so that … and i forgot the argument … all people beyond that number would be saved. And I said: that’s it. The Pope.

The question is the Pope. It is within the Tradition of the Church? OK. It is not! Then, I pay some attention to know what is going on, but my mind has got so many gigabytes …

When one reads a book on the History of the Church and sees so many heresies on 20 centuries, one has to suspect that the Protestant will disappear one day drowned in millions of interpretations…

Not that I want it for I think it is a scandal the Christian division…

 

[pritchard85]

My understanding, and I can find you the resources if you like, Sanctification is not a biblical doctrine. Justification is an ongoing process similar to being born, adolescence, teen, adult. In my understanding as a child of God I am justified, I am being justified and I will continue to be justified. Sanctification as declared by Calvin does not hold up to Biblical scrutiny as I understand it. I will look for the sources. I know I have them. If you want them I will produce them.

If I may, Justification is being declared righteous and Sanctification is the process by which the Holy Spirit makes us holy. Each are separate and both are Biblical.

 

[CopticChristian]

If I may, Justification is being declared righteous and Sanctification is the process by which the Holy Spirit makes us holy. Each are separate and both are Biblical.

I understand your position. It in my opinon does not clarify the confustion.

It is my understanding that Justification is being declared righteous, forensically, legally, not necessarily being righteous. Is this your position?

Justification and Sanctification as proposed are not necessarily biblical unless you rely on only certain Protestant sources. I agree it is taught. Sanctification in my understanding is to “set apart”. The reason Calvin came up with this is because the bible teaches Justification as an ongoing process as evidenced from the life of Abraham, Romans, Hebrews, James.

The Protestant, as I understand it, uses Romans Abraham for Justification as a one time event that does not parallel the life of Abraham.

The difficulty as you might understand is that the Protestant says, the Holy Spirit Regnerates to have saving Faith, an internal change, the Faith Justifies externally only and does not compute with the internal change. The Holy Spirit works to sanctify and the end product is an internal regeneration/sanctification with an external appearance of righteousness that is not truly righteous, as Luther says " a dung hill covered with snow".

This does not compute as I pointed out in the parallel to Adam and Christ. To be made sinners and to be made righteous.

 

[pritchard85]

I understand your position. It in my opinon does not clarify the confustion.

It is my understanding that Justification is being declared righteous, forensically, legally, not necessarily being righteous. Is this your position?

Justification and Sanctification as proposed are not necessarily biblical unless you rely on only certain Protestant sources. I agree it is taught. Sanctification in my understanding is to “set apart”. The reason Calvin came up with this is because the bible teaches Justification as an ongoing process as evidenced from the life of Abraham, Romans, Hebrews, James.

The Protestant, as I understand it, uses Romans Abraham for Justification as a one time event that does not parallel the life of Abraham.

The difficulty as you might understand is that the Protestant says, the Holy Spirit Regnerates to have saving Faith, an internal change, the Faith Justifies externally only and does not compute with the internal change. The Holy Spirit works to sanctify and the end product is an internal regeneration/sanctification with an external appearance of righteousness that is not truly righteous, as Luther says " a dung hill covered with snow".

This does not compute as I pointed out in the parallel to Adam and Christ. To be made sinners and to be made righteous.

None of it has anything to do with Protestant, Catholic or otherwise. Jesus came to die for our sins. The Bible is very clear that he died once for all sin. That’s what it says, period. We are made righteous by what he did for us on the cross when we have faith in him. That’s the only way we can be made righteous in God’s sight. This is being justified or being saved. Sanctification is running the race as Paul sees it. Being made more like Christ daily. I believe it was a Catholic priest (Fr. Corapi) that said good people don’t go to heaven, holy people do. This is exactly the picture of sanctification. If one isn’t already justified, then what is the purpose of being sanctified? There would be no purpose for it. This is how and why they are two separate things.

 

[CopticChristian]

If I may, Justification is being declared righteous and Sanctification is the process by which the Holy Spirit makes us holy. Each are separate and both are Biblical.

Sanctification is biblical for some but not all Protestants.

 

[CopticChristian]

None of it has anything to do with Protestant, Catholic or otherwise. Jesus came to die for our sins. The Bible is very clear that he died once for all sin. That’s what it says, period. We are made righteous by what he did for us on the cross when we have faith in him. That’s the only way we can be made righteous in God’s sight. This is being justified or being saved. Sanctification is running the race as Paul sees it. Being made more like Christ daily. I believe it was a Catholic priest (Fr. Corapi) that said good people don’t go to heaven, holy people do. This is exactly the picture of sanctification. If one isn’t already justified, then what is the purpose of being sanctified? There would be no purpose for it. This is how and why they are two separate things.

We are made righteous by what he did for us on the cross when we have faith in him.
That’s the only way we can be made righteous in God’s

This is the dilema. If we, as some Protestants say are extrinsically declared righteous, we are not truly righteous. Then by your admission you are not among those that believe we are declared righteous, we are made righteous. You conform to the Catholic Doctrine on Justification as spelled out at Trent. Welcome aboard.

As far as Justification/Sanctification. The Catholic Position is We are justified, we are being justified, we will be justified unto holiness. Call it what you like, you have agreed with the Catholic Position.

 

[fhansen]

The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church defines Justification as sonship and is outlined in the Council of Trent. Many Protestants see Justification as an external act. Working through this I am confused. Here is what I came up with. Does this sound correct?

To have Faith that Justifies you must be born again and regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Justification has nothing to do with inner moral transformation. It is only a external, forensic, legal, juridical, extrinsic act of God in His actions as a Judge, imputing Christ’s righteousness to my heavenly account.

There appears to be an inconsistency.

To be justified you have to have Faith. To have Justifying Faith you need to be reborn through the Holy Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit that gives you Faith.

I am justified legally by Faith alone apart from any moral transformation although that moral transformation occurred prior to the justification and the Faith that justifies is the result of the inner transformation of the soul brought about by the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration is required to have Faith that justifies and then declare Justification to be a legal act.

It also appears that regeneration occurs on account of something that is done, a work. It appears that there is an inner transformation and yet justification is considered only external.

In Catholicism we are initially justified by having our sins forgiven/removed formally at Baptism and then we must continue on-to “go, and sin no more”. The problem for most of us is that while we may be washed clean at that point, our attraction to sin (concupiscence) is still around. Whatever needed to be resolved in Adam & Eve’s own spirits isn’t necessarily resolved yet in our own. Their rebellion, their tendency towards sin and away from God, is something we may still struggle with.

And sinners simply do not enter heaven according to scripture. Why should they, sin is what separated man from God to begin with and this makes more sense when we consider Pope Benedict’s assertion that God is heaven according to his book, Jesus of Nazareth. So man must be just, and justification is no more or less that being truly just, not merely imputedly so. And the New Covenant is the agreement whereby God promises to make man just, by writing His Laws on our hearts and in our minds as per Jer 31.

And what does man’s justice consist of? What* is* mans’ holiness? It’s simply to love God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and his neighbor as himself. Here universal order and man’s integrity are restored, God’s will is done, the Law is fulfilled. Sin is excluded because God/Heaven/Love, and sin, are mutually exclusive.

 

[CopticChristian]

In Catholicism we are initially justified by having our sins forgiven/removed formally at Baptism and then we must continue on-to “go, and sin no more”. The problem for most of us is that while we may be washed clean at that point, our attraction to sin (concupiscence) is still around. Whatever needed to be resolved in Adam & Eve’s own spirits isn’t necessarily resolved yet in our own. Their rebellion, their tendency towards sin and away from God, is something we may still struggle with.

Sin is excluded because God/Heaven/Love, and sin, are mutually exclusive.

You concur with Paul

21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

 

[fhansen]

You concur with Paul

Yes, I concur with you that I concur with Paul-at least I certainly hope so.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes, I concur with you that I concur with Paul-at least I certainly hope so.

Concupiscence

 

[pritchard85]

This is the dilema. If we, as some Protestants say are extrinsically declared righteous, we are not truly righteous. Then by your admission you are not among those that believe we are declared righteous, we are made righteous. You conform to the Catholic Doctrine on Justification as spelled out at Trent. Welcome aboard.

As far as Justification/Sanctification. The Catholic Position is We are justified, we are being justified, we will be justified unto holiness. Call it what you like, you have agreed with the Catholic Position.

No that’s not what I agree with. Justification is when we accept and believe in Christ. Sanctification is growing more like Christ.

Think of it as falling off the side of a cliff as we all are without Christ. Justification is the very moment that a rope is thrown down to us and we grab it to stop our fall. Sanctification is the long pull up across the sharp rocks back to the top.