Justification in praying to Saints or Mary

[onetimeposter]

I’ve been starting to wonder why people pray to the Saints asking for them to ask God to help us out.

I’m even begining to wonder why we pray to Mary, to get her to go and ask God to help us out.

Does anyone know of any scripture that indicates that we are to do this or are these things part of the Catholic Traditions?

I know that there is lots of scripture that indicates that we should only pray to God.

Why not just pray to God or Christ directly? What is the benefit in getting a middle man involved?

 

[FCEGM]

I’ve been starting to wonder why people pray to the Saints asking for them to ask God to help us out.

I’m even begining to wonder why we pray to Mary, to get her to go and ask God to help us out.

Does anyone know of any scripture that indicates that we are to do this or are these things part of the Catholic Traditions?

I know that there is lots of scripture that indicates that we should only pray to God.

Why not just pray to God or Christ directly? What is the benefit in getting a middle man involved?

We ask for their prayers on our behalf because death does not separate those who are united in the Communion of the Saints, for all who are in Christ are likewise joined one to another. It is according to our nature created by God to do things together for a common purpose. It is our love for one another that impels us to pray for one another and to want others to pray for us. The Saints are our brothers and sisters who are in God’s Presence; but some people don’t like this interdependence.

The Christian Tradition from the beginning declares that the interest of the Saints in Heaven will be increased a hundredfold, because they will realize then more fully our needs and necessities. St. Jerome (350-420) is a striking witness to this fact. He writes:

“If the Apostles and martyrs, whilst still in the flesh and still needing to care for themselves, can pray for others, how much more will they pray for others after they have won their crowns, victories, their triumphs. Moses, one man, obtains God’s pardon for six hundred thousand men, and Stephen prays for his persecutors. When they are with Christ will they be less powerful? St. Paul says that two hundred and sixty-six souls were granted to his prayers, whilst they were in the ship with him. Shall we close his lips after death, and not mutter a syllable for those who throughout the world have believed in his gospel?” (Adv. Vigil, 6)

These two articles are but two of several articles available on the subject at THIS ROCK magazine (linked to above):

catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312frs.asp

 

[thistle]

I’ve been starting to wonder why people pray to the Saints asking for them to ask God to help us out.

I’m even begining to wonder why we pray to Mary, to get her to go and ask God to help us out.

Does anyone know of any scripture that indicates that we are to do this or are these things part of the Catholic Traditions?

I know that there is lots of scripture that indicates that we should only pray to God.

Why not just pray to God or Christ directly? What is the benefit in getting a middle man involved?

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I’ve been starting to wonder why people pray to the Saints asking for them to ask God to help us out.

I’m even begining to wonder why we pray to Mary, to get her to go and ask God to help us out.

Does anyone know of any scripture that indicates that we are to do this or are these things part of the Catholic Traditions?

I know that there is lots of scripture that indicates that we should only pray to God.

Why not just pray to God or Christ directly? What is the benefit in getting a middle man involved?

Here are a few scriptures that may help answer your question.

Eph 6:18 By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit: and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints:
Eph 6:19 And for me, that speech may be given me, that I may open my mouth with confidence, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

In Tobit, an angel delivered up the prayers.

Tob 12:12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord.

In Revelations we see the prayers of saints being delivered to the Lamb.

Rev 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

In Hebrews we see there are witnesses over our head, concerned with our well being or actions.

Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

I hope that helps, and would be interested in seeing other’s (name removed by moderator)ut on the subject.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[BRB]

I’ve been starting to wonder why people pray to the Saints asking for them to ask God to help us out.

I’m even begining to wonder why we pray to Mary, to get her to go and ask God to help us out.

?

Because there is strength in unity. Is the Church composed of only those Christians currently living ?

Christianity is family … an extended, spiritual family of souls who joinly worship Christ.

Mary is the Spiritual mother of all Christians … we are not to worship or idolize her, not to give sacrifices to her.

But, Christ desires for us to venerate his / our Mother. To allow her to help us in our prayer life …in the worship of Christ the King. Just like John, Peter, James … and many other great saints can give spiritual aid and intervene to the Father/Son on our behalf.

 

[Denae]

Have you ever asked another congregation member to pray for you? Or a pastor? Or your parents? That is essentially what we are doing with Mary and the saints.

 

[onetimeposter]

Because there is strength in unity. Is the Church composed of only those Christians currently living ?

Christianity is family … an extended, spiritual family of souls who joinly worship Christ.

Mary is the Spiritual mother of all Christians … we are not to worship or idolize her, not to give sacrifices to her.

But, Christ desires for us to venerate his / our Mother. To allow her to help us in our prayer life …in the worship of Christ the King. Just like John, Peter, James … and many other great saints can give spiritual aid and intervene to the Father/Son on our behalf.

1)How do we know that Christ wants us to do this?

1. Why do we need anyone to intervene to Christ for us…can’t we go right to Christ ourselves?

 

[onetimeposter]

In Revelations we see the prayers of saints being delivered to the Lamb.

Quote:
Rev 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

These seems to be talking more about the prayers of the saints and not praying to the saints.

 

[davidv]

1)How do we know that Christ wants us to do this?

Because He commanded us.

that you love** one** another; even as I have loved you
Jn 13:34

and

Therefore confess your sins to one another, and** pray** for one another, that you may be healed
Jas 5:34

1. Why do we need anyone to intervene to Christ for us…can’t we go right to Christ ourselves?

Because a family, the family of God, needs each other.

 

[onetimeposter]

Here are a few scriptures that may help answer your question.

Quote:
Eph 6:18 By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit: and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints:
Eph 6:19 And for me, that speech may be given me, that I may open my mouth with confidence, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
This is not advocating praying to the saints, it is advocating " a general exhortation to courage and prayer" The New American Bible does not indicate " all the saints" rather its translation has “all the holy ones”. In any event, the scripture is not intended to advocate praying to Saints.

In Tobit, an angel delivered up the prayers.

Quote:
Tob 12:12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord.
In Revelations we see the prayers of saints being delivered to the Lamb.
**
Again the New American Bible has a different translation and does not use the word saints, but again, the verse is referring to the prayers of the saints and not praying to the Saints.**

Quote:
Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

This quote doesn’t have anything to do with the saints, rather the entire verse 12 1:13 speaks of focusing on Jesus.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[onetimeposter]

Because He commanded us.

and

Because a family, the family of God, needs each other.

With all due respect, you haven’t really answered my question. It seems that you are telling me that you have come to the conclusion that we are to do this and that you are making an assumption that this is what we ought to do.

You have not provided any scriptural evidence that we are to pray to anyone other than God.

 

[onetimeposter]

duplicate

 

[BRB]

1)How do we know that Christ wants us to do this?

1. Why do we need anyone to intervene to Christ for us…can’t we go right to Christ ourselves?

Because the Scriptures tell us ‘Henceforth, all generations will call Mary blessed’. And, Christ entrusted John ‘the beloved’ to care for Mary as his own mother.

It is strongly believed by the Church that John wished to communicate to us that we all are ‘the beloved’ in eyes of Christ. Thus, all Christians should treat Mary with same maternal respect/veneration.

Mary is among the living … and clearly can intervene on behalf of Christians … when it is desired of her.

Yes, most of time you should pray to Christ directly, since He is King, Saviour, and High Priest … and He alone to be worshiped.

And, when you do so … ask Him how you are to treat issue of ‘veneration’ of Mary.

If Christ generally answers your prayers … in a short while you will have your own answer on the matter.

 

[davidv]

With all due respect, you haven’t really answered my question. It seems that you are telling me that you have come to the conclusion that we are to do this and that you are making an assumption that this is what we ought to do.

You have not provided any scriptural evidence that we are to pray to anyone other than God.

Obviously what “it seems” and what is are not the same.

When did the Gospel of John and the Epistle of James become not scripture?

 

[Robbinson]

With all due respect, you haven’t really answered my question. It seems that you are telling me that you have come to the conclusion that we are to do this and that you are making an assumption that this is what we ought to do.

You have not provided any scriptural evidence that we are to pray to anyone other than God.

I’ll admit I find it odd that I’m weighing in here (a Protestant), but I thought some of the earlier replies were responsive to your question (great question - and I never thought about it quite like this before).

I assume you are comfortable asking friends to pray for you when you are troubled (not in lieu of, but in supplement of, your prayers to Christ?).

We know from the transfiguration that Moses and Elijah still exist in a real sense and understand what is happening here on earth - so we can assume that other departed saints do as well (as amplified by the other scriptural examples of this cited in the earlier replies).

So - if you wanted to ask one of the departed saints to pray for you (as you ask a friend here on earth), you would pray to them - not worshiping them, but enlisting their prayers on your behalf.

This does make sense to me.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[onetimeposter]

Obviously what “it seems” and what is are not the same.

When did the Gospel of John and the Epistle of James become not scripture?

Your post made no mention of scriptural instructions that teach us to pray to the Saints or Mary.

 

[Ruthie]

There is no Scripture that tells us we have to ask Mary or the Saints for their intercession. We are free to do so, or not.

The Scriptures mentioned earlier show that we are not prohibited from doing so. In that sense, we are justified.

Ruthie

 

[onetimeposter]

There is no Scripture that tells us we have to ask Mary or the Saints for their intercession. We are free to do so, or not.

The Scriptures mentioned earlier show that we are not prohibited from doing so. In that sense, we are justified.

Ruthie

Wonderful, but who instituted that belief…I know that we are free to do this, but the underlying question is…who instituted this practice and brought into the Church as an accepted practice of Catholicism?

Especially when there is no scriptural foundation.

 

[Todd_Easton]

I’ve been starting to wonder why people pray to the Saints asking for them to ask God to help us out.

I’m even begining to wonder why we pray to Mary, to get her to go and ask God to help us out.

Does anyone know of any scripture that indicates that we are to do this or are these things part of the Catholic Traditions?

This practice is an application of the Biblical teaching that “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.”
(James 5:16)

In addition to James 5:14-18, where the sick are directed to seek the prayers of the priests of the Church, the practice of asking a righteous person to pray for you can be found in Job 42:7-9, where the Lord tells Job’s friends to have righteous Job pray for them “for I will accept his prayer.” In Acts 8:24, a repentant Simon Magus asks Peter, “Pray for me to the Lord.”

I know that there is lots of scripture that indicates that we should only pray to God.

Sacred Scripture tells us to worship (adore) only God. Although most prayers are addressed to God, there are a few examples in Sacred Scripture of prayers being addressed to the saints and angels in heaven, such as Daniel 3:58, 86: “Angels of the Lord, bless the Lord, praise and exalt him above all forever…Spirits and souls of the just, bless the Lord, praise and exalt him above all forever.” Also see Psalm 103:21, 148:2.

There is little difference between asking the spirits and souls of the just to bless, praise and exalt the Lord and asking them to pray for us. That the righteous dead can and do pray for us is attested to in Sacred Scripture in 2 Maccabees 15:12-14.

Why not just pray to God or Christ directly?

Praying to God or Christ directly is a very good thing. Asking other Christians, including those in heaven, to pray for us is also a very good thing which tends to increase the mutual love of the members of the Body of Christ. Paul routinely asked for the prayers of other Christians, such as 1 Thessalonians 5:25: “Brethren, pray for us.” Also see Romans 15:30, Philippians 1:19, and Colossians 4:3.

What is the benefit in getting a middle man involved?

There are two benefits: 1) Because they are righteous, the prayers of the saints in heaven are very efficacious. 2) Asking the prayers of other Christians, including Christians in heaven, tends to build up the Body of Christ in mutual love.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

These seems to be talking more about the prayers of the saints and not praying to the saints.

Even though I posted it once before, I think I evidently need to post it again. Read Tobit chapter 12, and see that an angel is the one that offered up the prayers for Tobias.

Tob 12:12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord.

Here’s another group of verses that explains intercessory prayers abit. Protestants will pull out verse 5 and say we shouldn’t, but reading it in context with the other verses seems to indicate it is good and acceptable in the sight of God.

1Ti 2:1 **I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men: **
1Ti 2:2 For kings and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher and an apostle (I say the truth, I lie not), a doctor of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1