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jean8
Guest
Good question.
The middle men in this case cannot hear anyone’s prayers nor can they do anything about them. The Bible teaches us to pray to God, he possess the attribute of omnipresence, creatures do not.
jean8
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The middle men in this case cannot hear anyone’s prayers nor can they do anything about them. The Bible teaches us to pray to God, he possess the attribute of omnipresence, creatures do not.
jean8
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onetimeposter
Guest
Prodigal son…you posted this one:
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:
It sounds pretty clear to me that we are being told that there is only one mediator between us and God…Jesus. It is telling us that we don’t need any other mediators…such as the Saints and Mary.
Why the contradiction, when the Bible clear indicates there is but one mediator?
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:
It sounds pretty clear to me that we are being told that there is only one mediator between us and God…Jesus. It is telling us that we don’t need any other mediators…such as the Saints and Mary.
Why the contradiction, when the Bible clear indicates there is but one mediator?
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LilyM
Guest
Perhaps you need to learn a bit the difference is between intercession (praying for and with someone) and mediation (which by most dictionary definitions has more to do with RECONCILING DISPUTES - many courts employ people to do so in ways that avoid trial - such people are called mediators.)
Think about it - Jesus is certainly the only one who can possibly reconcile us with the Father, and He is indeed the only one we go to for such reconciliation (for example when we have sinned).
Intercession such as we believe the saints do isn’t about us being reconciled with God - I know I don’t ask any of the saints to obtain my salvation or the pardon of my sins, for example. What I DO ask for is their INTERCESSION (pleading on my behalf) in smaller matters - when I or someone else needs particular favours or graces from God that fall short of pardon or salvation.
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onetimeposter
Guest
Who started this Catholic Tradition?
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LilyM
Guest
Jesus Himself. It can very easily be logically deduced from the Gospels.
Firstly he commands us to pray for each other (hence it’s the OUR Father, a communal prayer for the needs of all - a prayer that mentions both those on earth and those in heaven as being united in wanting to do God’s will, and not the MY Father).
Secondly He makes clear, in several places in the Gospels, that there is no distinction in between the righteous dead and the living, since Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are living.
And finally He showed at the Transfiguration that the righteous departed (Moses and Elijah) can communicate with and are aware of the concerns of the living. Even Abraham ‘rejoiced to see My day’. Clearly this refers to the Incarnation, as Jesus’ divine nature pre-existed Abraham. So Abraham was aware of and reacted to events going on on Earth.
Add these up and you get, as both Paul and James made clear, a duty for ALL followers of Christ to pray for each other - something which, as Revelations shows, also extends to those in Heaven, who are seen praying about events on Earth.
Such a duty must necessarily be accompanied by the ability to ASK for prayers from those in Heaven as we do from those on Earth (without which it would be impossible for them to pray - they wouldn’t know what to pray FOR unless they could hear us!)
Finally, Jews of Jesus’ time clearly believed in prayer to the departed - after all, didn’t they say He was calling on Elijah from the cross? So the belief certainly pre-existed Him and there’s nothing at all suggesting that Jesus didn’t share this belief.
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BRB
Guest
Yes … Jesus alone ‘mediates’ between man and God the Father. Intercessory Prayers to Mary don’t go to God the Father … she takes them to Jesus.
Jesus always is the ‘final mediator’ between man and God.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Yes, I posted that within a passage or group of verses. I also said protestants pull out the one verse to endorse their belief. This is something Sola Scripturists do with a lot of verses through private interpretation. Private interpretations was the reasoning behind the reformation and the boom of thousands of denominations built on differences of private interpretations. You have to take things in context, which means one sentence does not tell the whole story.
If you believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church. Then you believe that Church to have the authority to interpret the Bible as guidance for us and that those teachings are protected through Jesus’ promise.
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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mlchance
Guest
For as many times as you’ve regurgitated that sentence, you’d think you’d have come up some Scriptural support for it by now.
– Mark L. Chance.
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onetimeposter
Guest
I don’t agree at all with your explanantion…mediator and intercessor are the same thing…take a look.
intercessor
Roget’s II: The New Thesaurus
Main Entry: go-between
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: Someone who acts as an intermediate agent in a transaction or helps to resolve differences.
Synonyms: broker, interceder, intermediary, intermediate, intermediator, mediator, middleman
**
One who goes between, or intercedes; a mediator**. (a) One who interposes between parties at variance, with a view to reconcile them. (b) One who pleads in behalf of another.
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onetimeposter
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Which interpretation is right among thousands and thousands of churches?
I prefer to trust the Church that was the only Church until Luther’s reformation in the 1600s and that original Church still exists. Luther defended his “breaking away” using Sola Scriptura. Once he made his defense that his interpretation was the only one that counted, his followers started leaving him to start their own churches. Afterall, their leader taught them Sola Scriptura by his own example. Luther tried to stop the schisms from his own church by saying, he was first to think of private interpretation so therefore all other interpretations were wrong. Ironic, huh? He went so far as to threaten death to dissents. More irony, huh? He started changing the scriptures to fit his beliefs. He wanted to do away with more books but his “noble” supporters told him he would not be able to pull his break away off if he went too far and people would consider him just another fanatic. He referred to the book of James as ole Jimmy, fit for the fireplace.
The nobles that supported Luther only did so because they saw how strong the Catholic Church was with people and in assets. They only supported Luther for greed and power.
You know the rest of the story. There are now approximately 35,000 denominations now. All based on someone’s private interpretations. Some don’t believe in the Eucharist, some don’t believe in infant baptisms, some don’t believe it’s a sin to divorce and remarry, some believe they don’t have to attend church regularly, some don’t believe in the Trinity, some believe in speaking in tongues, some don’t, some believe in predestination, some believe in faith and no works and the list goes on. With all these different beliefs it would be easy to gain members as they can find a belief to fit their lifestyle. Is this what Christ intended? Is this one taking up their own cross and following Him? See what St. Paul told the Church of Corinth in my signature.
If Christ started his Church with Peter and promised to be with that Church until the end of time and even the gates of hell will not prevail against it, how can those others be correct?
If those other churches are right that were formed 400 years ago, or much more recently, why would Christ have abandoned mankind for over a thousand years?
I have looked up a couple articles on intercessory prayers. One by James M. Seghers and one by Patrick Madrid. Hopefully they can provide an explanation to give you peace of mind.
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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siqueiros
Guest
Regarding praying to saints: This also was a little confusing to me as well ,(being that my grandparents are protestant and my mother is catholic),but if you look at scipture there is evidence of intercession in revelations and other parts in the old testement, (the old testement part that Martin Luther left out). Also at the wedding in Canaan when the diciples asked Mary to interceed to get Jesus to make the water into wine. If we believe in the resurrection than we have to believe that Mary and the saints are alive in heaven, after all scipture says heaven rejoices. The Hail Mary come directly from scipture and the ending comes from parts of the Subtuum one of the earliest prayers ever discovered from the early church. I hope this helps you understand.
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FCEGM
Guest
The term mediator does not refer to prayer. It refers to Christ as the only instrument of reconcilation between God and man. The context of the passage itself is the urging of prayer on behalf of everyone. If the above passage refered to prayer, then the passage makes no sense as it would be stating that only Jesus can pray. To ask a saint to pray for us is in no way a violation of this scripture verse, and it is bad theology to suggest that it is.
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FCEGM
Guest
LilyM in post #25 already answered this quite fully for you.
If those in Heaven cannot pray for us then why can we do so while on earth?! If we cannot enjoy communion with the Saints in Heaven then Christ has no power, for what power we have is HIS power in which we participate by virtue of our incorporation into His Body. If we cannot ask the Saints for their prayers on our behalf, then we, when counted among the blessed, must not be allowed “to share my throne,” Rev. 4:21. If we cannot ask the Saints for their prayers on our behalf, then St. Stephen, “filled with grace and power” withstanding the Sanhedrin, was divested of that power upon his martyrdom; then St. Peter and St. Paul, who cured people of their spiritual blindness and physical illnesses by virtue of the power of the Lord, lost their power upon their martyrdoms.
If faith gave them (and us) the power to perform such prodigies, what more must sight give?!
We enjoy Communion with one another - including “our brothers and sisters who have gone before us marked with the sign of faith” - because of our Communion with THE Communion of the Divine Persons of the Most Holy Trinity. Being in Christ we are in union with all that is His - including His Mother and all who are in Him.
Here are some of the Fathers of the Church on the subject:
catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp
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redrosetea
Guest
Tell me where in scripture does it say it can only be valid if it is in scripture?
Where does the bible even mention the word bible?
The church came first
There was no bible for 400 years after Christ ascended into heaven
There was tradition…Mary was venerated from the earliest days of the church
We have faith and tradition. since we were the only Christian church for 1500 years I think we know a bit about it
Mary was given to us to be our mother at the foot of the cross, when she was told Woman behold thy son, son behold thy mother
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GailMac
Guest
Thought I’d add something nice about the subject. It is a quote from Leo XIII. Hope you enjoy!
Peace,
Gail
Peace,
Gail
- Whoever considers the height of dignity and glory to which God has raised the Most August Virgin Mary, will easily perceive how important it is, both for public and for private benefit, that devotion to her should be assiduously practised, and daily promoted more and more.
- God predestined her from all eternity to be the Mother of the Incarnate Word, and for that reason so highly distinguished her among all His most beautiful works in the triple order of nature, grace and glory, that the Church justly applies to her these words: “I came out of the mouth of the Most High, the first-born before all creatures” (Eccles. xxiv., 5). And when, in the first ages, the parents of mankind fell into sin, involving their posterity in the same ruin, she was set up as a pledge of the restoration of peace and salvation. The Only-begotten Son of God ever paid to His Most Holy Mother indubitable marks of honour. During His private life on earth He associated her with Himself in each of His first two miracles: the miracle of grace, when, at the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in the womb of Elizabeth; the miracle of nature, when He turned water into wine at the marriage-feast of Cana. And, at the supreme moment of His public life, when sealing the New Testament in His precious Blood, He committed her to his beloved Apostle in those sweet words, “Behold, thy Mother!” John xix., 27).
- We, therefore, who, though unworthy, hold the place of Vicar of Christ upon earth, shall never cease to promote the glory of so great a Mother, as long as life endures. And since, as old age draws on apace, We feel that life cannot now last much longer, We are constrained to repeat to each and all of our beloved children in Christ those last words of His upon the Cross, left to us as a testament, “Behold, thy Mother!” Greatly rewarded indeed shall We be, if Our exhortations succeed in making even one of the faithful hold nothing dearer than devotion to Mary; so that those words which St. John wrote about himself may be applied to each, “the disciple took her to his own” (Ibid.).
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jean8
Guest
Lily,
Yes, I agree, we are to pray for each other.
The appearing of Moses and Elijah have nothing to do with praying to people who cannot hear you.
Jesus called to The Father from the cross. Mt.27:46, In Mk.15:34-
someone thought he was calling out to Elijah verse 34 tells you differently.
God bless,
jean8
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jean8
Guest
Gail,
Thank you for sharing this lovely discourse. Where does it come from? Eccles. xxiv., 5).? Are you referring to the Bible?
God bless,
jean8
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LilyM
Guest
What proof do you have for your allegation that Elijah and Moses were special? What proof do you have that they were or are unique in their ability to communicate with humans?
What proof do you have that the departed cannot hear us? There’s no Bible verse saying that the departed cannot hear us, but plenty to the contrary. Moses and Elijah both hear and respond just fine. So do the heavenly saints in Revelation - note that they pray specifically about events that are going on on Earth, very clearly they both hear and see what is going on down here! Same with St Paul’s ‘cloud of witnesses’, how could anyone possibly be a witness to your life who can’t hear you?
And congratulations on completely missing the point of what I was saying about Jesus on the cross.
The point is that those people around Jesus knew that earthly mortals COULD pray to Elijah, one of the righteous departed. So did Jesus - after all He had done that very thing (pray to Elijah) not too long before that, did He not? 
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