Justification vs Sanctification

  • Thread starter Thread starter De_Maria
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

De_Maria

Guest
** Justification vs Sanctification **
Code: 
	 				 					 					 				 				 					 				 		 			 				 					Although justification and sanctification are normally considered  to be one and the same process, the Council of Trent seems to make a  slight difference:
CHAPTER VII
IN WHAT THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER CONSISTS, AND WHAT ARE ITS CAUSES

This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.[30]

AND

The causes of this justification are:
the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies

It seems as though SANCTIFICATION is something wrought by God alone.

Whereas, Justification is a process which includes the participation of the sinner.

What say you?

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
Santification is a gift from god
Justification can be earned by the actions and faith of sinners.
 
mcrow said:
Justification can be earned by the actions and faith of sinners.
Click to expand...
Actually no…

Nothing we can do can earn “initial justifcation” such is the gift of God…

“Following St Paul, we have seen that man is unable to “justify” himself with his own actions, but can only truly become “just” before God because God confers his “justice” upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son. And man obtains this union through faith. In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us “just”. This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him.”

–Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html
 
De_Maria said:
** Justification vs Sanctification **
Code: 
	 				 					 					 				 				 					 				 		 			 				 					Although justification and sanctification are normally considered  to be one and the same process, the Council of Trent seems to make a  slight difference:
CHAPTER VII
IN WHAT THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER CONSISTS, AND WHAT ARE ITS CAUSES

This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.[30]

AND

The causes of this justification are:
the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies

It seems as though SANCTIFICATION is something wrought by God alone.

Whereas, Justification is a process which includes the participation of the sinner.

What say you?

Sincerely,

De Maria
Click to expand...
See the links posted above…

Both Sanctification and Initial Justification are pure gifts of God…(and in justification one IS sanctified…)

Yes by his grace we then live the Christian life…and can by his grace increase in holiness…
 
CCC:1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:
Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45
 
Bookcat said:
Actually no…

Nothing we can do can earn “initial justifcation” such is the gift of God…

“Following St Paul, we have seen that man is unable to “justify” himself with his own actions, but can only truly become “just” before God because God confers his “justice” upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son. And man obtains this union through faith. In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us “just”. This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him.”

–Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html
Click to expand...
Well, that’s true but I was speaking of final justification.

Inital is a gift from God and Final justification is by faith and deeds or works.
 
mcrow said:
Well, that’s true but I was speaking of final justification.

Inital is a gift from God and Final justification is by faith and deeds or works.
Click to expand...
Yes by the grace of God we need to cooperate…but still it is a gift. … “apart from me you can do nothing”.

One is still saved by grace…not by ones own efforts…per se

And lets say someone is baptized and dies at that moment…his final justification did not involve even one good work by the grace of God 🙂

Yes we will also be rewarded too …even though it is all by God 🙂

oh and “final preserverence” is a gift too. A grace.

For a fuller treatment: vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm#I
 
Bookcat said:
Yes by the grace of God we need to cooperate…but still it is a gift. … “apart from me you can do nothing”.

One is still saved by grace…not by ones own efforts…per se

And lets say someone is baptized and dies at that moment…his final justification did not involve even one good work by the grace of God 🙂

Yes we will also be rewarded too …even though it is all by God 🙂

oh and “final preserverence” is a gift too. A grace.

For a fuller treatment: vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm#I
Click to expand...
Sure, by that logic, everything is a gift from God (I’m not disputing that, btw). The family I have, the things I own, my faith…ect is, when it comes down to it, a gift from God.
 
mcrow said:
Sure, by that logic, everything is a gift from God (I’m not disputing that, btw). The family I have, the things I own, my faith…ect is, when it comes down to it, a gift from God.
Click to expand...
Read te CCC 🙂 For a fuller treatment…(all three sections there…together)

Now if the question is can we by the grace of God and after Justified…“merit” in a sense graces needed for our sanctification and eternal life…

then yes…one can say sure…

God gives us the dignity in cooperating with him by his grace.

But eternal life is* already given* at the time of Faith and Baptism (etc…)…and was in no way merited (as you of course later said)…

and of course the gift of final preserverence is well…a gift. Not something merited…
 
Bookcat said:
Read te CCC 🙂 For a fuller treatment…(all three sections there…together)
Click to expand...
I’ve read it, still don’t see your point. I agree if you are talking about initial justification(as outlined in the CCC) it is a pure gift.

However, as I noted, I was talking about Final Justification (Final Judgement).

The two are two very different things.
 
mcrow said:
I’ve read it, still don’t see your point. I agree if you are talking about initial justification(as outlined in the CCC) it is a pure gift.

However, as I noted, I was talking about Final Justification (Final Judgement).

The two are two very different things.
Click to expand...
Now if the question is can we by the grace of God and after Justified…“merit” in a sense graces needed for our sanctification and eternal life…

then yes…one can say sure…

God gives us the dignity in cooperating with him by his grace.

But eternal life is already given at the time of Faith and Baptism (etc…)…and was in no way merited (as you of course later said)…

and of course the gift of final preserverence is well…a gift. Not something merited…(though one can pray for it …)
 
Ok lets change your first wording to fit what you later said:

“Final Justification can be earned by the actions and faith of sinners.”

The way you were wording things…made it seem like one “earned” ones salvation…or “had too” per se…

Here is the CCC:

“Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.”

Yes one can say that one can by grace “merit” more graces “needed” for ones salvation…grace building upon grace in a sense with our cooperation…

but I would not use the wording that was proposed…

and in the end…it is by grace we are saved…the gift of God. Even “final perserverence” is a gift that can not be “earned”…but rather prayed for…
 
Bookcat said:
Now if the question is can we by the grace of God and after Justified…“merit” in a sense graces needed for our sanctification and eternal life…

then yes…one can say sure…

God gives us the dignity in cooperating with him by his grace.

But eternal life is already given at the time of Faith and Baptism (etc…)…and was in no way merited (as you of course later said)…

and of course the gift of final preserverence is well…a gift. Not something merited…(though one can pray for it …)
Click to expand...
#1- Justification (Initial CCC 1987-1995) is a Gift. Period. No need for debate there.

#2- Final Justification (Judgement)

682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.

You cannot accept grace without faith.

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith.

166 Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.

Yes, eternal life is given at baptism (I’ll point out I never mention eternal life to begin with) but where you spend it has to do with faith and works.
 
#1- Justification (Initial CCC 1987-1995) is a Gift. Period. No need for debate there.

yes.

#2- Final Justification (Judgement)

682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.

yes…but I would avoid any attempt to say one “earned” justification…that wording is not very happy…yes we can “merit” further graces for salvation…but it is not it is not a happy phrase to use…and yes we can of course refuse grace…and sin mortally and die that way…then we “merit” hell…

You cannot accept grace without faith. Actually it is the reverse. Faith is a gift from God…one can not have Faith without grace…

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith.

Yes…and that Faith is already from grace…

166 Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.

Right…and it also point out CCC 179 Faith is a supernatural gift from God.

Yes, eternal life is given at baptism (I’ll point out I never mention eternal life to begin with) but where you spend it has to do with faith and works.

Faith and works too are by grace…🙂 hee hee

Yes…Faith is to work through love… yes we are involved…and we can “merit” hell by mortal sin …via serious sins of omission

For a great going over of this from Paul…

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html
 
CCC 2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts."62
 
Bookcat said:
and in the end…it is by grace we are saved…the gift of God. Even “final perseverance” is a gift that can not be “earned”…but rather prayed for…
Click to expand...
Nice comment…Good work=rewards…Not good=Ash…Both still go to heaven through trust in Christ…
 
Bookcat said:
#1- Justification (Initial CCC 1987-1995) is a Gift. Period. No need for debate there.

yes.

#2- Final Justification (Judgement)

682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.

yes…but I would avoid any attempt to say one “earned” justification…that wording is not very happy…yes we can “merit” further graces for salvation…but it is not it is not a happy phrase to use…and yes we can of course refuse grace…and sin mortally and die that way…then we “merit” hell…

You cannot accept grace without faith. Actually it is the reverse. Faith is a gift from God…one can not have Faith without grace…

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith.

Yes…and that Faith is already from grace…

166 Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.

Right…and it also point out CCC 179 Faith is a supernatural gift from God.

Yes, eternal life is given at baptism (I’ll point out I never mention eternal life to begin with) but where you spend it has to do with faith and works.

Faith and works too are by grace…🙂 hee hee

Yes…Faith is to work through love… yes we are involved…and we can “merit” hell by mortal sin …via serious sins of omission

For a great going over of this from Paul…

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html
Click to expand...
Well, then we basically agree. From your posting it seemd more like you were trying to say that we have nothing to do with Justification. Granted, God gives us everything, including his Grace and our faith…ect. However, it’s our job not to screw things up.

Or at least that’s how I see it.

Also, you won’t get into heaven on works alone and it seems that immoral works count against you more than good moral works count for you.

So, my summary would be that God gives us grace and faith but it’s our job not to soil them with immorality and to accept Grace.
 
mcrow said:
Well, then we basically agree. From your posting it seemd more like you were trying to say that we have nothing to do with Justification. Granted, God gives us everything, including his Grace and our faith…ect. However, it’s our job not to screw things up.

Or at least that’s how I see it.

Also, you won’t get into heaven on works alone and it seems that immoral works count against you more than good moral works count for you.

So, my summary would be that God gives us grace and faith but it’s our job not to soil them with immorality and to accept Grace.
Click to expand...
No of course not…as Augustine said --God created us without us but he will not save us without us (of course one can take this too far…but you get the poetic point). We are given the dignity of cooperating with God…

Yes by his grace …we are to not depart from him…(screw it up by mortal sin at the time of the final closure of death)

And yes he involves us so that one can say after initial justification…that he “rewards” our works …merits…with eternal life…but this is also by his grace with our cooperation of course…he rewards us for his own gifts 🙂 Hee hee (which does not remove our cooperation) (it can all be a bit complicated…lots to hold together in the big picture…if one wants to parse things out…forgive any poor wording or leaving anything out…readers should read the CCC and Pope Benedict XVI…if I worded something wrongly etc I reject such :))

We are saved by grace through faith and baptism…and then we follow Christ…“remaining in him” in a living way…(not committing mortal sin) and with faith working in love…living in the certitude of hope…
 
Hiskid1973 said:
Nice comment…Good work=rewards…Not good=Ash…Both still go to heaven through trust in Christ…
Click to expand...
Tis more than “trust”…

and one can of course go to Hell through unrepented/forgiven mortal sins…

as Paul puts it: they do not enter the kingdom of God…

“if we deny him he will deny us”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top