H
Hiskid1973
Guest
How about the word “faith”…
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B
Bookcat
Guest
see Pope Benedict XVI links above…for more infoHow about the word “faith”…
(but yes faith and baptism are ordinarily the beginning…)
D
DPMartin
Guest
BookcatActually no…
Nothing we can do can earn “initial justifcation” such is the gift of God…
“Following St Paul, we have seen that man is unable to “justify” himself with his own actions, but can only truly become “just” before God because God confers his “justice” upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son. And man obtains this union through faith. In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us “just”. This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him.”
–Pope Benedict XVI
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html
I like this Pope, he is on the mark, the Church needs more like him, desperately.
D
De_Maria
Guest
Bookcat,See the links posted above…
Both Sanctification and Initial Justification are pure gifts of God…(and in justification one IS sanctified…)
Yes by his grace we then live the Christian life…and can by his grace increase in holiness…
Thanks for responding. I think we are thinking along the same lines. Please tell me what you think of the below dissertation:
**Catholic salvation economy **
Anyway, it seems as though we are saved by faith apart from works in the Sacraments.
And by faith and works throughout our lives.
PRELIMINARY
The Sacraments are described as God’s work, are they not? CCC#740
Taking for instance, Baptism, could we say that when that water is poured over our head and God justifies us by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, could we say that we had nothing to do with that but to have faith that God will do what He promised?
And could this not be what St. Paul referred to when he said:
Titus 3:5
Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost;
And also:
Romans 3:20
Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.
And Trent says:
CHAPTER VII
IN WHAT THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER CONSISTS, AND WHAT ARE ITS CAUSES
This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.[30]
The causes of this justification are:
the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies[31] gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance,[32] the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies,[33] for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,[34] merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father, the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith,[35] without which no man was ever justified finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind,[36] and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills,[37] and according to each one’s disposition and cooperation.
ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm
HOWEVER, St. Paul turns right around and says:
Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Which coincides precisely with St. James famous quote:
James 2:24
Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
And of course that coincides with Trent where it says:
CHAPTER X
THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED
Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written:
He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56]
TWO TYPES OF JUSTIFICATION
There seem to be two types of justification going on in the Catholic Sacramental system. The one, a conversion of the sinner, establishing holy habits and exercising virtues which gradually change the sinner into the saint. This is a justification by faith AND WORKS.
The other and more radical justification, which was brought to this world by Jesus Christ and which the Patriarchs did not experience until Jesus died on the Cross and led them into heaven. But we get it in the Sacrament of Water which was imposed by Jesus Christ. But that justification of Baptism (and of the other Sacraments) requires in us only a disposition of acceptance which I describe as faith in God. Because no man can wash his own soul. Only God can do that. This is justification APART FROM WORKS.
The two are melded together in the Catholic Economy of Salvation.
Therefore, with St. Paul we can say that we are saved by faith APART FROM WORKS.
And with St. James we can say that we are saved by faith AND WORKS.
What say you?
D
De_Maria
Guest
I agree for the most part. But it seems that Justification is an overall process which includes within it the process of sanctification by God.Santification is a gift from god
Justification can be earned by the actions and faith of sinners.
Even in our ordinary works, which we unite to God, we both justify ourselves and God sanctifies us.
The way I see it is this. Our good works, justify us by the fact that they instill in us good habits. Our nerve endings become accustomed to kneeling for prayer, to calling out to God in desperate situations, to hugging our children, etc. etc.
In so doing, our bodies, which are a very significant part of our soul, become cleansed of evil deeds and purified.
But also, because of our dedication to doing good, God sanctifies us. We say that it takes perfect contrition to do this. But it is difficult to sit and make oneself be perfectly contrite. However, when one is working to effect good in the world, perfect contrition is happening, right then and there. And the grace of God is pouring into us, effecting sanctification. And thus, sanctification and justification go hand in hand.
But I agree that overall, justification is by faith and works. And sanctification is by faith apart from works.
see my response to bookcat below:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7041827&postcount=1
Sincerely,
De Maria
D
De_Maria
Guest
I think the Pope is referring to Chapter VII of Trent.Actually no…
Nothing we can do can earn “initial justifcation” such is the gift of God…
“Following St Paul, we have seen that man is unable to “justify” himself with his own actions, but can only truly become “just” before God because God confers his “justice” upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son. And man obtains this union through faith. In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us “just”. This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him.”
–Pope Benedict XVI
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html
However, if we read Trent, the beginning of Justification, as opposed to “initial justification” begins with the unmerited gift of God:
**CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS
**It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ,
At that point, the adult begins to PREPARE for complete justification or sanctification in Baptism. Although, the process of justification has already begun. This preparation is by faith and works:
**CHAPTER VI
THE MANNER OF PREPARATION
**Now, they [the adults] are disposed to that justice when, aroused and aided by divine grace, receiving faith by hearing,[21] they are moved freely toward God, believing to be true what has been divinely revealed and promised, especially that the sinner is justified by God by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;[22] and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism;[23] finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God.
Of this disposition it is written:
He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him;[24] and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee;[25] and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin;[26] and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost;[27] and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you;[28] finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.[29]
Baptism itself, sanctification, is by faith apart from works. But one is born again a new man able to walk in the works prepared by God from the beginning.
This walking in the works of God is called FURTHER JUSTIFICATION and is the subject of Chapter 10 of Trent.
Sincerely,
De Maria
B
Bookcat
Guest
I can’t go thru all that right now…nor prob go bit by bit through it …
I would refer you to the Catechism section I referenced and to the Audiences of Pope Benedict referenced…hopefully a few readings of that may pull things together for ya.
Remember Paul is talking about works of the Torah mainly…
though it is true that nothing we do prior to initial justification/sanctification (it happens then together…we do not break it apart) “earns” our justification/sancitifcation…such is a pure gift when by Faith and Baptism we are then “in Christ”…
Then of course by grace we continue to “walk in Christ” to produce the fruits of the Holy Spirit and live by the Charity given us by God…and yes we can then further (not on our own but by God’s grace) merit further graces needed for our holiness and eternal salvation…etc continuing to walk and live by charity with confident hope in God.
We are baptized into Christ…then we live in him…by the Holy Spirit…walking and working in love…
I would refer you to the Catechism section I referenced and to the Audiences of Pope Benedict referenced…hopefully a few readings of that may pull things together for ya.
Remember Paul is talking about works of the Torah mainly…
though it is true that nothing we do prior to initial justification/sanctification (it happens then together…we do not break it apart) “earns” our justification/sancitifcation…such is a pure gift when by Faith and Baptism we are then “in Christ”…
Then of course by grace we continue to “walk in Christ” to produce the fruits of the Holy Spirit and live by the Charity given us by God…and yes we can then further (not on our own but by God’s grace) merit further graces needed for our holiness and eternal salvation…etc continuing to walk and live by charity with confident hope in God.
We are baptized into Christ…then we live in him…by the Holy Spirit…walking and working in love…
F
fhansen
Guest
I don’t think there’s much, if any, difference in Catholic theology between them. In any case, our cooperation is always a part of the process of salvation, the reason for our justification/sanctification.** Justification vs Sanctification **
CHAPTER VIICode:Although justification and sanctification are normally considered to be one and the same process, the Council of Trent seems to make a slight difference:
IN WHAT THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER CONSISTS, AND WHAT ARE ITS CAUSES
This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.[30]
AND
The causes of this justification are:
the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies
It seems as though SANCTIFICATION is something wrought by God alone.
Whereas, Justification is a process which includes the participation of the sinner.
What say you?
Sincerely,
De Maria
D
DPMartin
Guest
De Maria
Justification
Everyone seeks justification for what they believe, trust, and do. Whether it be governments, individuals groups organizations and religions. An atheist seeks justification to not believe there is a Living God, his belief, trust, faith. Therefor justifies in his own heart and mind his actions without fear of God. Or those who believe money makes right, so on and so forth.
There is no justification for one’s actions to be in the Presence of God, but repentance and submit to the fulfillment of God’s Word, in His Presence in order to be in His Presence. This is the justification of Abraham by Abraham’s faith, (Trust) in the fulfillment of God’s Word, in God’s Presence. Noah and all who trust, or trusted in the fulfillment of God’s Word in God’s Presence, in human existence. Hence Jesus Christ the good news of that fulfillment that justifies mankind to be in the Presence of God, forever.
What is justified before God, is the fulfillment of God’s Word.
Sanctification
Sanctification is not that complicated, that which walks in the Light walks in the Light and that which does not does not. And without the Presence of God’s Holiness , His Holy Spirit the sanctification from darkness is not there.
The Children of Israel where separated to be in God’s Presence.
Hence the baptism of the Holy Spirit justifies you to be in God’s Presence, but the fulfillment of God’s Word in you is the work. Of which you have birth right to receive.
Look at Abraham Isaac and Jacob. And the many references to “the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob”. God is Love, the Father Loves through His Word, His agreement, covenant that He gave to man that we trust in the fulfillment of Hence (Faith), in God’s expectation and desire that His Word be fulfilled (Hope) Jacob. For Jacob desired the birth right in the expectation of the fulfillment of the covenant through Isaac.
The people who wrote the things you quote and ask about are studiers of what God said and done recorded in Scripture. And are the result of much study and contemplation of many years of Scripture, in the concern for the understanding of the Church’s position on the matter. Instant understanding just ain’t goin’a happen. If you don’t understand what they are saying, then Scriptures might help.
Justification
Everyone seeks justification for what they believe, trust, and do. Whether it be governments, individuals groups organizations and religions. An atheist seeks justification to not believe there is a Living God, his belief, trust, faith. Therefor justifies in his own heart and mind his actions without fear of God. Or those who believe money makes right, so on and so forth.
There is no justification for one’s actions to be in the Presence of God, but repentance and submit to the fulfillment of God’s Word, in His Presence in order to be in His Presence. This is the justification of Abraham by Abraham’s faith, (Trust) in the fulfillment of God’s Word, in God’s Presence. Noah and all who trust, or trusted in the fulfillment of God’s Word in God’s Presence, in human existence. Hence Jesus Christ the good news of that fulfillment that justifies mankind to be in the Presence of God, forever.
What is justified before God, is the fulfillment of God’s Word.
Sanctification
Sanctification is not that complicated, that which walks in the Light walks in the Light and that which does not does not. And without the Presence of God’s Holiness , His Holy Spirit the sanctification from darkness is not there.
The Children of Israel where separated to be in God’s Presence.
Hence the baptism of the Holy Spirit justifies you to be in God’s Presence, but the fulfillment of God’s Word in you is the work. Of which you have birth right to receive.
Look at Abraham Isaac and Jacob. And the many references to “the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob”. God is Love, the Father Loves through His Word, His agreement, covenant that He gave to man that we trust in the fulfillment of Hence (Faith), in God’s expectation and desire that His Word be fulfilled (Hope) Jacob. For Jacob desired the birth right in the expectation of the fulfillment of the covenant through Isaac.
The people who wrote the things you quote and ask about are studiers of what God said and done recorded in Scripture. And are the result of much study and contemplation of many years of Scripture, in the concern for the understanding of the Church’s position on the matter. Instant understanding just ain’t goin’a happen. If you don’t understand what they are saying, then Scriptures might help.
B
brb3
Guest
Except Peter puts it this way …Actually no…
Nothing we can do can earn “initial justifcation” such is the gift of God…
"Following St Paul, we have seen that man is unable to “justify” himself with his own actions, but can only truly become “just” before God because God confers his “justice” upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son. And man obtains this union through faith. In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us “just”.
Peter preaching at Pentecost says …Whoever calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved. “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. FOR THE PROMISE IS TO YOU AND TO YOUR CHILDREN AND TO ALL THAT ARE FAR OFF, EVERY ONE WHOM THE LORD OUR GOD CALLS TO HIM.” …“SAVE YOURSELVES FROM THIS CROOKED GENERATION.” …and all who believed were together and had ALL THINGS IN COMMON; … and the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Confession alone is not enuf. REPENTANCE IS ESSENTIAL. Repentance requires more than faith. It requires ‘works’ enabled by aid of H.S. [Gracious works].
B
Bookcat
Guest
Yes repentance (etc) is involved…but still such repentance does not “earn” initial justification…and such is from God…Except Peter puts it this way …
Peter preaching at Pentecost says …Whoever calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved. “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. FOR THE PROMISE IS TO YOU AND TO YOUR CHILDREN AND TO ALL THAT ARE FAR OFF, EVERY ONE WHOM THE LORD OUR GOD CALLS TO HIM.” …“SAVE YOURSELVES FROM THIS CROOKED GENERATION.” …and all who believed were together and had ALL THINGS IN COMMON; … and the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Confession alone is not enuf. REPENTANCE IS ESSENTIAL. Repentance requires more than faith. It requires ‘works’ enabled by aid of H.S. [Gracious works].
Initial Justification is the wonderful gift of God…yes given through his gifts of repentance faith and baptism …(good reading is the two links above from Pope Benedict XVI
M
mcrow
Guest
The difficulty in understanding this is that everything is from God. So, while yes, you need to repent, confess,have faith, and act morally…pretty well all of this (beyond moral action)ultimately come as gifts from God.Except Peter puts it this way …
Peter preaching at Pentecost says …Whoever calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved. “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. FOR THE PROMISE IS TO YOU AND TO YOUR CHILDREN AND TO ALL THAT ARE FAR OFF, EVERY ONE WHOM THE LORD OUR GOD CALLS TO HIM.” …“SAVE YOURSELVES FROM THIS CROOKED GENERATION.” …and all who believed were together and had ALL THINGS IN COMMON; … and the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Confession alone is not enuf. REPENTANCE IS ESSENTIAL. Repentance requires more than faith. It requires ‘works’ enabled by aid of H.S. [Gracious works].
So, the biggest thing we have to do with justification is being sure to not act imorally. Good works are also good but you won’t go to heaven on good works alone and they won’t make up for any immoral things you’ve done.
Our most active participation in justification is being moral, some good works tend to go alone with being moral. It’s pretty hard to be morally correct and not do a decent amount of good works.
It’s really one big tangled mess because everything is dependant on God’s will except how moral we are.
See, you can be faithful and immoral. You can do a lot of good works and be immoral. Or you can be faithful and do good works and be immoral. In all three cases, you are not going to be justified.
If you are faithful and moral, you’ll probably go to heaven and the good works you do on the way will score you extra points, so to speak. Of course you are not really earning you way in, but you are building merit through morality and faith. And of course, merit does not equal guarantee since we don’t really know for sure how we’ll be judged in the end.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Another Audience of Pope Benedict XVI:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html
A must read…
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html
A must read…
B
Bookcat
Guest
Speaking of ones initial justification…We are justified by Jesus Christ…it is his work…his gift…we do not earn it…we are saved by grace through faith…and baptism (which too is given us…)
Then once we are thus “in Christ” we can live in him…(apart from me you can do nothing…) and by the Holy Spirit…working with his grace in doing good…following him…becoming more like him and walking in the works he has prepared for us…
Then once we are thus “in Christ” we can live in him…(apart from me you can do nothing…) and by the Holy Spirit…working with his grace in doing good…following him…becoming more like him and walking in the works he has prepared for us…
B
Bookcat
Guest
Another Audience from Pope Benedict XVI
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html
a must read…
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html
a must read…
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