Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

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I think the scriptures prove the doctrine of the trinity.
That is only because you read it through the lens of what’s already been taught to you: trinitarian dogma.

But I guarantee you that a man on a desert island who’s been isolated from all things Christian would NEVER be able to conclude “There is One God in 3 Divine Persons” by reading the Bible. If the Bible were dropped on his island, and he read it cover to cover, without any Christian lens, he’d conclude, probably, the JWs were right about their Christology.
 
Ianman87:
It is the letter of Clement to the Corinthian Church that says:
And so we, having been called through His will in Christ Jesus, are
not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or
understanding or piety or works
Haven’t you read the posts that I have put up? I have already stated this principle several times!

I thought I have made this very clear.

But just because you cannot “work your way to Heaven” on your own accord, that still does not get you off the hook for the necessity of works.

Let me try a different approach.

I would like you to tell me . . . . what you think I would say . . . . . to support WHY we cannot “work” our way to Heaven . . . . yet we MUST still work to get to Heaven (depending upon our state in life).

I just want to make sure you are hearing what I am saying.

BTW. Do you think you can earn Heaven by your faith? (And if not, do you still NEED faith??)
 
Ianman87:

Haven’t you read the posts that I have put up? I have already stated this principle several times!

I thought I have made this very clear.

But just because you cannot “work your way to Heaven” on your own accord, that still does not get you off the hook for the necessity of works.

Let me try a different approach.

I would like you to tell me . . . . what you think I would say . . . . . to support WHY we cannot “work” our way to Heaven . . . . yet we MUST still work to get to Heaven (depending upon our state in life).

I just want to make sure you are hearing what I am saying.

BTW. Do you think you can earn Heaven by your faith? (And if not, do you still NEED faith??)
Well, in this post I was talking about how having to have the correct understanding/doctrine isn’t what justifies us. I was responding to a post about how we can have spiritual unity and not doctrinal unity. If someone is truly a child of God then they are indwelled with the Spirit. They are part of the family. Just because we disagree about some things doesn’t remove them (or us) from the family.

I’ve said about all I can say about James 2. John Piper wrote a very good article that expresses what I believe about the passage. Here is a link to the article if you are interested.

As for the question. ** Do I think we can earn heaven by our faith? **I would say faith isn’t an outward work of righteousness. Faith is accepting in our innermost being (our heart if you will) the Gospel of Christ that results in a change in our “heart” that is brought on by the power of the Holy Spirit. Faith isn’t how we earn salvation it is how we accept the gift of salvation.

In the sermon I head yesterday at church the preacher said something that I totally believe. Being a Christian changes who we are which results in God working in us to change what we do. Religion, on the other hand, is us asking God what must I do, and then we rely on ourselves to find favor with God by working the to do list.

My question to anyone who claims to be a Christian is “are you a new creation”? Has your heart been changed from dead to being alive? Anyone can say they are a Christian. But how many who claim Christ have truly been changed? How much of our American religious society is folks going through the motions and putting on a show from friends and family, but have never cried out to God as a result of conviction of sin and realization that without Christ we are nothing? And in evangelical circles, How many of us are relying on a prayer said when we were children or teenagers, but the prayer was just words instead of a cry from the heart that resulted in a change to our inmost being. Or how many of us rely on our intellectual understanding and personal piety to make us “a Christian” instead of turning our entire selves over to Christ and letting Him change our heart.

I would say that a large part of Christianity in America is trying to find favor with God by being a good moral person, instead of allowing God to come in and change who we are. If we are changed by faith in Christ and the resulting power of the Holy Spirit then we are changed from the inside out. God changes our “heart” which results in a change in our actions. Being a follower of Christ becomes who we are and not merely something we do. And what we do is a result of who we are.

Works (and how we live our life to honor Christ) is what we do because we are a Christian. They aren’t what we do to be a Christian.

Have a wonderful week.
 
I think the scriptures prove the doctrine of the trinity. As such, the apostle had understanding about what they were writing, they weren’t just dictating documents without understanding.
I wouldn’t say prove, but certainly all the elements are there.
 
But I guarantee you that a man on a desert island who’s been isolated from all things Christian would NEVER be able to conclude “There is One God in 3 Divine Persons” by reading the Bible.
Well, they would be able to determine that there is one God. They can determine that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all referred to as God. They can determine that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate “persons”. The Trinity is just a doctrine that seeks to reconcile the three, not to explain it.
If the Bible were dropped on his island, and he read it cover to cover, without any Christian lens, he’d conclude, probably, the JWs were right about their Christology.
Only if it was a NWT. Can’t get by John 1 without changing the words. That’s why the JW rewrote the NT in the first place.
 
Only if it was a NWT. Can’t get by John 1 without changing the words. That’s why the JW rewrote the NT in the first place.
It is amazing how much difference a single letter can make. I picked up a copy of the NWT while waiting for an appointment in an office. I read John 1:1 and following.

Instead of saying “The Word was with God and the Word was God” it said “the Word was with God and the Word was a God”.
 
Just to inch back to the OP, question to Protestants, do you view Romans 2 as a hypothetical argument by Paul?
 
It is amazing how much difference a single letter can make. I picked up a copy of the NWT while waiting for an appointment in an office. I read John 1:1 and following.

Instead of saying “The Word was with God and the Word was God” it said “the Word was with God and the Word was a God”.
And that’s just the beginning. In the NWT any reference to Jesus having a divine nature is changed. They did miss a few spots but they got most.
 
So we broke the 600 post mark. The horse is long dead as we continue to beat it.

The Catholic position is that works are necessary for justification.

The Protestant position is that works are not necessary for justification but they are evidence of a saving faith which is necessary for justification.

I think we have established that no Catholic (on this thread at least) believes that works earn justification.

I have heard no one (on this thread at least) say works are irrelevant to a Christian.

So my question is what are we still debating?
 
So we broke the 600 post mark. The horse is long dead as we continue to beat it.

The Catholic position is that works are necessary for justification.

The Protestant position is that works are not necessary for justification but they are evidence of a saving faith which is necessary for justification.

I think we have established that no Catholic (on this thread at least) believes that works earn justification.

I have heard no one (on this thread at least) say works are irrelevant to a Christian.

So my question is what are we still debating?
I kinda thought we are trying to break some kind of record for the most post on a single thread. :rolleyes:
 
So we broke the 600 post mark. The horse is long dead as we continue to beat it.

The Catholic position is that works are necessary for justification.

The Protestant position is that works are not necessary for justification but they are evidence of a saving faith which is necessary for justification.

I think we have established that no Catholic (on this thread at least) believes that works earn justification.

I have heard no one (on this thread at least) say works are irrelevant to a Christian.

So my question is what are we still debating?
Good question
 
So we broke the 600 post mark. The horse is long dead as we continue to beat it.

The Catholic position is that works are necessary for justification.

The Protestant position is that works are not necessary for justification but they are evidence of a saving faith which is necessary for justification.

I think we have established that no Catholic (on this thread at least) believes that works earn justification.

I have heard no one (on this thread at least) say works are irrelevant to a Christian.

So my question is what are we still debating?
Words.

We are saved by faith. But those with faith will do works.

Therefore, absence of works = absence of salvation. Hence, works are necessary for salvation.

As I said, words.
 
This is what St. Paul says is Colossians 1;10: "You will multiply good works of every sort and grow in the knowledge of God This sure sounds to me that Paul believes we are to do good works, which seems to me its not just about faith that one is justified; Seems paul is saying good works goes with faith so there is no faith alone that one can be justified.
 
Well, they would be able to determine that there is one God. They can determine that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all referred to as God. They can determine that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate “persons”. The Trinity is just a doctrine that seeks to reconcile the three, not to explain it.
No where do the Scriptures talk about the Holy Spirit as a Divine Person.
 
This is what St. Paul says is Colossians 1;10: "You will multiply good works of every sort and grow in the knowledge of God This sure sounds to me that Paul believes we are to do good works, which seems to me its not just about faith that one is justified; Seems paul is saying good works goes with faith so there is no faith alone that one can be justified.
That’s an inference. You are inferring that “which seems to me its not just about faith that one is justified; Seems paul is saying good works goes with faith so there is no faith alone that one can be justified.”
Be that as it may, works are indeed necessary. Few would argue they are not
 
Words.

We are saved by faith. But those with faith will do works.

Therefore, absence of works = absence of salvation. Hence, works are necessary for salvation.

As I said, words.
Sola fide misses the mark totally.

They forget James’s words: “You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that, and shudder!”
 
James248 said:
From this link:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide
  1. Protestants have devised many and varied explanations to neutralize the clear and unambiguous statement in Jm 2:24 that “man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Each of these explanations concludes that James is not teaching that man is justified by works in the same sense that Paul says man is justified by faith. Puzzled by James’s language, Martin Luther even concluded that the epistle of James was a spurious book and should not be canonically authoritative for New Testament teaching.
  2. Countering the Protestant explanation of the epistle of James which states that James means that “men” witness Abraham’s works, the Genesis text (Genesis 22) does not include any men as witness to Abraham’s works, but only God himself.
  3. Countering the Protestant explanation of James which holds that the word “justified” as James uses the term refers to a “vindication,” rather than to a salvific justification, as Paul uses the term, are the following arguments:
a) If James were teaching a concept of “vindication,” he would have said, with the proper Greek word, “you see, a person is vindicated by works.” Moreover, since James adds the clause “and not by faith alone” we know that he is correcting a false notion concerning the solitude of faith in justification, not suggesting that Abraham was vindicated by works.

b) If James were attempting to teach a vindication of Abraham, the specific argumentation he used would make sense only if James’s opponents had claimed that Abraham was “vindicated by faith alone.” In other words, if the vindication hypothesis were true, syntactical requirements would have forced James to use the meaning of “vindicated” in the first part of his argument (Jm 2:20-21) in order also to use it in the latter part (Jm 2:24). Since the grammatical structure of the verse would then require that the phrase “not by faith alone” have its referent in the phrase “is vindicated,” this would force the meaning of the verse to be, “a person is vindicated…not by faith alone” — a meaning that has no relevance to James’s discussion.

c) The New Testament does not use the word “justified” in the sense of “vindicated” in contexts which are soteriological, i.e., contexts which discuss salvation or damnation. Moreover, such passages as Mt 11:19 where one could plausibly interpret the Greek word dikaioo as referring to a vindication do so only in a metaphorical sense; therefore they do not use dikaioo in the same way that James, and even Paul, use the term, which is historical and literal.

d) James’s discussion of the events surrounding the justification of Rahab preclude assigning the meaning of “vindicated” to the word justified. Rahab’s justification, as described in Jm 2:25, is a salvific justification, not a vindication, yet James specifies that Rahab was justified “in the same way” that Abraham was justified. Therefore, one cannot understand Abraham’s justification as a vindication.

e) Since James and Paul use the same Greek noun dikaiosune (“righteous”) in reference to Abraham, and interpret the word in the same way (cf. Gn 15:6, Rm 4:3, Jm 2:23), it would be totally incongruous for one of them to use a different meaning of its verbal cognate dikaioo in reference to Abraham.

f) The Protestant position assumes that Abraham’s justification is a once-for-all event. James’s all important question “Can faith save him?” (Jm 2:14), however, includes Abraham within its purview. Hence we must conclude that if Abraham’s works were not of the quality that James prescribes in the context (Jm 2:15), then Abraham would not be justified. Abraham could not be justified in a “once-for-all” event in Gn 15:6 and at the same time have that justification put in jeopardy by disobedience to James’s requirement of works for justification. If this could happen, the question in Jm 2:14 would have no meaning.
  1. Abraham’s acts in Genesis 12, 15, and 22 were acts of faith and works. We should not misconstrue Paul’s stress on Abraham’s faith in his view of Gn 15:6 to say that Abraham performed no works of loving obedience to God at this time or prior, nor should we misconstrue James’s view of works in Genesis 22 to say that Abraham’s attempted sacrifice of Isaac was not a supreme act of faith. Similarly, Abraham’s departure from his homeland in Genesis 12 also couples his faith and works in regard to justification. Throughout his life, in the periods recorded in Genesis 13-14, 16-21, and 23-25 which are between the times of his recorded faith and obedience in the New Testament, Abraham continued to live in faith and obedience, with only what we may call minor lapses along the way. Genesis 22’s importance is its detailing of Abraham’s quintessential act of the faith-and-works which allowed God to swear an oath of blessing to him and for all his future descendants. Abraham’s act in Genesis 22, not Gn 15:6, was the most important act in Abraham’s life. The act in Genesis 22 was just as much a crediting of righteousness to Abraham as that in Gn 15:6.
 
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