This implies that those who hold to sola fide mean an intellectual assent. I think that is a gross mischaracterization, at least of the Lutheran understanding
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ajcstr
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LOL - joking - I don’t think such a thing exists any more. I often listen to Dr. White on Youtube and in debates.
I have not read that particular book.
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ajcstr
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Well, there are inferences just as there are for Jesus being divine:
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
(Matt 12:32)
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Next 2 verses together:
Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? (Cor 3:16)
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? (Cor 6:19)
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spina1953
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Hi JonNC, Thanks for your reply, yes it was a inference on my part as i understood it, but of course I was just quoting one verse not trying to take it out of context but only to make the point. When one read Colo.1:9-14 Paul is not against good works or deeds that it goes with faith no matter what one goes through. That being said Paul was against the thinking that in order to be saved one had to follow the Law of Moses and Jewish rituals. It seems to me and i could be wrong here but in the Gospels it appears that most Jews of that time had the notion or belief or maybe conditioned to believe that one had to follow Jewish rituals and the Law of Moses. I think you might agree that it was apart of the Jewish belief system to follow all of the law of Moses as well as all of the rituals if one was to be considered a good Jew.
It seems to me that gradually the early Church was moving aways from its Jewish roots where by rituals and the Law of Moses was no longer required but that which Jesus the Christ taught and who we were to put our faith in and like Jesus by doing so we would do good works or deeds in such a way that those seeing it would give thanks and glory to Got the Father. That being said putting our faith in Christ jesus and doing as he had commanded brought about salvation to one because one had been justified. Does that make any sense?
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drblank1
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James is contrasting intellectual knowledge of God and authentic faith.
I believe many miss the mark on the book of James. There is nothing in the book of James that tells one “how” to be saved. It is a blueprint of how the authentic Christian is to behave. The book describes what is the result of authentic faith.
The problem with faith/works based salvation is this: if works are necessary for one to be saved, then we no longer rely solely on Jesus’ righteous but His and our own righteous to be saved.
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drblank1
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drblank1
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Let’s see if this thread can force the creation of a 6-star rating.I kinda thought we are trying to break some kind of record for the most post on a single thread.
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SyCarl
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Not necessarily. If, like faith , we view the works we do as a gift of grace, done through the influence of the Spirit and entirely meriting Him, then works can be included with faith.
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PRmerger
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The obvious conclusion, reading without any lens, is that the Holy Spirit is a force.
Not a Person.
No one reads the Bible and gets the idea that there are 3 Divine Persons in 1 God, co-eternal, co-equal, with the 2nd Person of the Godhead consubstantial with the Father.
Nope.
That comes from the Church, and the Scriptures support this dogma.
But we don’t read the Scriptures and come to the conclusion that God is a Trinity.
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James248
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I copied and pasted a Wikipedia link that clearly contradicts your view on James.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide
5) The entire context of the book of James concerns what one must do to be saved. He concentrates on obedience to the law as the means of salvation, and judgment for those who disobey that law.
- James includes sins of commission as well as omission in his warning against disobedience to the law. The supreme law, or “royal law,” that James has in view is the law of love.
- James assumes that the audience to whom he writes already has faith in God. The main question that James poses to them is whether they have added works to their faith. James does not suggest that works will immediately or inevitably flow from one who has faith, even though he may have a greater disposition towards good works once he has faith. James teaches that one who has faith must make a daily, conscious decision to do good works, just as he must decide each day to refrain from sin. In fact, if he chooses not to do good works when the opportunity arises, he has sinned (Jm 4:17).
- James does not support the Protestant concept that one can be saved as long as he has “saving faith.” James is not so much attempting to qualify the faith needed for justification as he is saying that one must consciously add works to faith in order to be justified. A person, to be justified, must persevere to his last breath in this conscious decision to add works to faith.
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LatinRight
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God bless Ajcstr and every readers of the CAF.
As God’s children/elect, at our initial justification, even BEFORE we received God’s gift of formed faith, we have received God’s gift of irrevocable salvation/everlasting life and God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance which is an Eternal Protection of our salvation/everlasting life.
God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance infallible protects God’s children/elect’s salvation/everlasting life, without this protection every child/elect of God would end up in hell.
**COUNCIL OF TRENT **
. . . none of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace. End quote.
Our salvation is God’s free gift, for our supernatural works God gives us rewards in heaven. – Rom.4:4; “Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace (we cannot contribute our works to our salvation because it is God’s free gift) but as debt **(God rewards our good works in heaven).” **In the brackets added.
KEY TO UNDERSTAND
Our entry to heaven and our rewards in heaven are two separate issues, knowledge comes in understanding of salvation when someone knows the differences between these two issues.
Our works to enter heaven is absolute IRRELEVANT. – Of course every child/elect of God has God’s gift of formed faith, **so every elect of God has the desire to work. **
But even if an elect at the judgment of his works cannot show to God even an iota of his work which is count for anything, he is still enter to heaven.
Our works concerning our positions and glory in heaven is absolute RELEVANT. – Our position and glory in heaven determined by God according to the outcome of the judgment of our works.
Heaven is free for us (it is God’s free gift), our rewards in heaven is not free for us.
If at the judgment of our works all our works rejected by God we are still enter to heaven. – 1 Cor.3:12-15; Rom.4:4-6; 2 Tim.1:9; etc.
Any child/elect of God can be disqualified from his rewards in heaven if his works are not up to the standard of supernatural works (1 Cor.3:12-15), but no child/elect of God can be disqualified from heaven. – *DE FIDE *Dogma.
KEY TO UNDERRSTAND
No work means, we enter to heaven without an iota work WHICH IS COUNT FOR ANYTHING and without any reward.
**1 Cor.3:14-15; **“ If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.”
This is above the Faith + Works salvation adherents fail to understand.
They mistakenly believe: No work. = No salvation.
Theological fact (elect): No work. = No reward in heaven, yet there is no effect on salvation.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Predestination.
**THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita
THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):**
Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
THE FOLLOWING TEACHINGS CONFIRMS THE ABOVE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION
Rom.4:5-6; And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.
John 15:16; “You did not chose Me, but I chose you …”
2 Tim.1:9; “God who saved us and called us with holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE …”
Eph.1:11; “… being predestined ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE of Him …”
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LatinRight
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Continuation
JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE? by James Akin
Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.
**Sola fide formata = FORMED FAITH ALONE
THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FORMED FAITH:
a. BELIEF (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.)
b. HOPE (Unconditional TRUST in God.)
c. CHARITY (Unconditional LOVE for God.)**
So one does not have to do good works to get into a state of justification; good works are fruits of the state of justification, not causes for entering it.
The fact this passage does not refer to initial justification should be obvious since the justification of Abraham it refers to occurred years after Abraham was first justified by faith in Genesis 12, when By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go (Heb. 11:8).
Thus James 2:24 refers to later, progressive justification, by which one grows in righteousness, not initial justification, when ones sins are forgiven. End quote.
HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier
Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985
Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED?
We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.
Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote.
ChurchWatch 02/06/09
Pope Benedict XVI: ‘Luther Was Right’
“Luther would have been amazed at the efforts of the Vatican today to put the Bible back into the heart of the Roman Catholic Church,” writes Jeff Fountain of Christian Today.
Fountain reports that during Pope Benedict XVI’s recent weekly public addresses in St. Peter’s Square, he quoted Martin Luther in declaring “Sola fide,” that salvation is by faith alone.
According to this report, Benedict affirmed that Luther had correctly translated Paul’s words as ‘justified by faith alone’-- the well known sola fide.
It was disagreement over the doctrine of salvation by faith that sparked the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, splitting Christianity in Western Europe.
"Yet, said the Pope, it was indeed biblical to say, as did Luther, that it was the faith of a Christian, not his works that saved him."
According to Fountain, the Pope highlighted the fact that prior to his Damascus Road conversion, Paul had strictly adhered to all the Pharisaical laws and rules.
However, after meeting the Lord Jesus in his vision, Paul began leading a lifestyle of faith alone.
Continue
JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE? by James Akin
Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.
**Sola fide formata = FORMED FAITH ALONE
THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FORMED FAITH:
a. BELIEF (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.)
b. HOPE (Unconditional TRUST in God.)
c. CHARITY (Unconditional LOVE for God.)**
- On the subject of the kind of justification discussed in James 2:24.
So one does not have to do good works to get into a state of justification; good works are fruits of the state of justification, not causes for entering it.
The fact this passage does not refer to initial justification should be obvious since the justification of Abraham it refers to occurred years after Abraham was first justified by faith in Genesis 12, when By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go (Heb. 11:8).
Thus James 2:24 refers to later, progressive justification, by which one grows in righteousness, not initial justification, when ones sins are forgiven. End quote.
HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier
Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985
Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED?
We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.
Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote.
ChurchWatch 02/06/09
Pope Benedict XVI: ‘Luther Was Right’
“Luther would have been amazed at the efforts of the Vatican today to put the Bible back into the heart of the Roman Catholic Church,” writes Jeff Fountain of Christian Today.
Fountain reports that during Pope Benedict XVI’s recent weekly public addresses in St. Peter’s Square, he quoted Martin Luther in declaring “Sola fide,” that salvation is by faith alone.
According to this report, Benedict affirmed that Luther had correctly translated Paul’s words as ‘justified by faith alone’-- the well known sola fide.
It was disagreement over the doctrine of salvation by faith that sparked the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, splitting Christianity in Western Europe.
"Yet, said the Pope, it was indeed biblical to say, as did Luther, that it was the faith of a Christian, not his works that saved him."
According to Fountain, the Pope highlighted the fact that prior to his Damascus Road conversion, Paul had strictly adhered to all the Pharisaical laws and rules.
However, after meeting the Lord Jesus in his vision, Paul began leading a lifestyle of faith alone.
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LatinRight
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Continuation
JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church
3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.
4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.
4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.
4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS.
ANNEX TO THE OFFICIAL COMMON STATEMENT
C) Justification takes place "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, the person is justified „apart from works“ (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).
D) "Whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it“ (JD 25).
LatinRight
JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church
3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.
4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.
4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.
4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS.
ANNEX TO THE OFFICIAL COMMON STATEMENT
C) Justification takes place "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, the person is justified „apart from works“ (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).
D) "Whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it“ (JD 25).
- The doctrine of justification is measure or touchstone for the Christian faith. No teaching may contradict this criterion. In this sense, the doctrine of justification is an "indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ“ (JD l8).
LatinRight
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drblank1
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Wikipedia as a reliably, sound source regarding scripture???
Among other assertions, #5 couldn’t be more wrong!!! James is clearly concerned with the Christian, not the unbeliever. There is nothing in the book that gives the unbeliever a formula for salvation.Sorry but you’ve got to do better.
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drblank1
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What scripture supports that view? James is clearly a book about the Christian life. Not a book for the unbeliever.
LR,
I very much appreciate your posts. Thank you.
Do you believe that a Catholic in Central Europe in the year 1517 would have understood Justification as you just presented it?
Jon
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ajcstr
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I’m doing this off the top of my head (and I’m Catholic) so I can’t provide chapter/verse, but I can get them
A force that gives gifts as he sees fit?
A force that you can offend/sin against?
Again this is the same as Jesus, in some places in the Bible he is one with the Father and in some the Father is greater than he.
I agree with you to an extent but like I said there are verses you can use on either side of the argument. Now does it jump out at you? Probably not, just as half the evidence in Matthew that Jesus was the Christ (OT references) never jumped out at me until I attended a bible study on it. But I would say its there. And without the councils all you can do is sling verses back and forth (which I think is your point). Much like we have been doing in this thread even though Trent has already decided the matter.
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ajcstr
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See my last post along with this.
That’s what the Council of Trent was for, to define doctrine. I could ask a similar question in that would a Christian in Greece in 250 understand the Trinity as we would present it now?
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James248
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Really?Wikipedia as a reliably, sound source regarding scripture???
Sorry but you’ve got to do better.
James is concerned with justification, he clearly states a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
He clearly states: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?”
So Abraham is said to be justified when he believed in God’s promise and also when he sacrificed Isaac.
And if that isn’t enough, here is another link:www.catholic Blogger
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