Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[rcwitness]

Yep.

And no one knows if he is saved until he is dead. Period.

We can have assurance of our present condition. And we should have this awareness. If we have doubts, we ought to seek the Sacrament, and open up! And even start now, in order to complete in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Reconciliation does not begin in the Sacrament, but is completed by the declaration of Absolution.

What we should not do, is presume that we will endure until the time of our death. We certainly should hope that we do, but we have the ability to push Him away, and follow that father below.

 

[Cathoholic]

LatinRite:

ajcstr had a good recomendation here . . . .

Interesting debate between Trent Horn of CA and DR James White:

youtube.com/watch?v=72TRODe8BdA&t=25s

You’ve got a great heart and more stamina then any ten people on here.

Why not sit down, and look at that Trent Horn debate several times?

May I suggest writing down the Bible verses of both debaters under their names when watching. Then go back afterward and re-read the Bible verses.

Re-read the Council of Trent. Especially sections 5, 6, and 7.

thecounciloftrent.com

I don’t want to give you the impression EVERYTHING you said was wrong. It wasn’t.

You’ve put a lot of fruitful time and effort into the justification issue and have some important points correct too.

“Good on ya” for that.

After some more prayer, study, and meditation, get right back here on CAF and defend Holy Mother Church. We need people like you.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[James248]

What did God say to Moses? “He who has sinned, I will blot out of My Book.” So God disagrees with you. Church teaching disagrees with you. You’re gonna have to do better than that.

Latin Right?

 

[James248]

What did God say to Moses? “He who has sinned, I will blot out of My Book.” So God disagrees with you. Church teaching disagrees with you. You’re gonna have to do better than that.

Oh, LatinRight?

 

[LatinRight]

LatinRite:

ajcstr had a good recomendation here . . . .

You’ve got a great heart and more stamina then any ten people on here.

Why not sit down, and look at that Trent Horn debate several times?

May I suggest writing down the Bible verses of both debaters under their names when watching. Then go back afterward and re-read the Bible verses.

Re-read the Council of Trent. Especially sections 5, 6, and 7.

thecounciloftrent.com

I don’t want to give you the impression EVERYTHING you said was wrong. It wasn’t.

You’ve put a lot of fruitful time and effort into the justification issue and have some important points correct too.

“Good on ya” for that.

After some more prayer, study, and meditation, get right back here on CAF and defend Holy Mother Church. We need people like you.

God bless.

Cathoholic

God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your suggestion Cathoholic.

Unfortunately I can’t hear it because I have 90 % hearing loss.

God bless Cathoholic.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

**God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF. **

Before we go further let’s clear up an important issue which is:
Can a reprobate have a valid baptism who are predestined the hell from all eternity?

For by their vehement rejection of God and His grace they are practically predestined themselves to hell from all eternity.

We have to know first the related theological issues before we can answer the above question.

THE FIRST THEOLOGICAL ISSUE WE SHOULD KNOW IS THE PREDESTINATION OF THE ELECT

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect**

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote. Emphasis added.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

THE SECOND THEOLOGICAL ISSUE WE SHOULD KNOW IS OUR INWARD AND OUTWART MAN

The second theological issue must be understand is, our inward man (spirit + soul) and our outward man (Body) described in Luke 11:39; Rom.7:14-25; 2 Cor.4:16; Gal.5:16-25; Eph.3:16; 1 Cor.15:42-44, 51-57; etc.

2 Cor.4:16;
Therefore we do not lose heart.
Even though our outward man (body) is perishing, yet the inward man (our spirit + soul) is being renewed day by day. In the bracket is added.

Rom.7:22-23;
For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man (our spirit + soul).
But I see another law in my members (body), warring against in the law of my mind (spirit + soul), and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members (body). In the bracket is added.

Gal.5:16-18;
v. 16. I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

v. 17. For the flesh lust against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

v. 18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Rom.8:23;
… eagerly waiting for the ADOPTION, the REDEMPTION of our bodies.

1 Cor.15:42-44;
v. 42. So also the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.

v. 43. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. …

v. 43. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. …

KEY TO UNDERSTAND

**CCC 2019 **
Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.

THE COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 CHAPTER VII
… justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend. …

At our baptism our inward man (spirit + soul) saved/justified/adopted, DECLARED righteous and MADE righteous, we have been become sons of God, while our outward man (body) NOT YET adopted/redeemed.

Still the law of sin resides in our bodies, NOT YET adopted/redeemed and when we die our corrupt bodies goes to the grave in dishonor, and in corruption in an unredeemed state.

But will be raised from the grave as incorruptible, glorious glorified, spiritual bodies at the fulfillment of John 14:1-3; 1 Thess.4:15-18; 1 Cor.15:51-57.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

THE THIRD THEOLOGICAL ISSUE WE SHOULD KNOW IS OUR FALLEN SPIRITUAL POSITION

** OUR FALLEN SPIRITUAL POSITION **

a. We are under God’s CONDEMNATION. – Rom.5:18a; John 3:18b.

b. We are in BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION. – Rom.8:19-21.

c. We are residents of the KINGDOM OF SATAN. – Luke 4:5-7.

d. We are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins. – Eph.2:1b; Col.2:13a.

e. We “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: we see it all as nonsense; it is** BEYOND our UNDERSTANDING** because it CAN ONLY be understood by the Spirit of God.” – 1 Cor.2:14 Emphasis mine.

To be able to receive anything from the Spirit of God, FIRST we need new spiritual life.
This is sometimes called “Born Again.”

Col.2:13; Explains:
“And you, BEING DEAD in your trespasses … He has made you alive, … having forgiven you all trespasses.” – This resurrection/born again and forgiveness of sins/justification, takes place at baptism.

THE FOURTH THEOLOGICAL ISSUE WE SHOULD KNOW IS OUR BAPTISM

**BAPTISM OF GOD’S CHILDREN/ELECT
**
In our baptism, there is God’s part to do and our part to do.

God’s part to do in our baptism ALWAYS PRECEDES our water baptism.

This is the point, sometimes confusion comes in understanding baptism.

**GOD’S PART TO DO IN OUR BAPTISM IS OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION

GOD’S WORK IN OUR BAPTISM IN FINE DETAILS

The sequence of events of our baptism.**

1. GOD SANCTIFIED us. – At our sanctification God has completely washed us clean, made us holy (our spirit + soul). – 1 Cor.6:11; 1 Pet.2:9; etc.

We may call it the purgatory of our (spirit +soul) as God has completely washed us clean, made us ready to heaven. **– It was an instant event. **

1. God delivered us from the power of darkness and taken us (our spirit + soul) up to heaven, – Col. 1:13; Eph.2:6.

3.** In heaven** God baptized us into the body of Christ, – 1 Cor.12:13, 27.

4.** In the Body of Christ** God RE-CREATED us (from spiritual death, in Christ God made us spiritually alive, – 1 Cor.15:22; Eph.2:1). – At our re-creation God MADE us righteous and MADE us SONS of God and NEW CREATIONS / BORN AGAIN by given us a new heart, given us a new spirit and God put His Spirit into us – Ez.36:26-27; 2 Cor.5:17; 1 Cor.3:16; 1 Cor.6:19.

1. God JUSTIFIED us. – At our justification God DECLARED us righteous and DECLARED us to be sons of God. – Rom.3:24; Rom.8:15.
2. In heaven in Christ (our spirit + soul) have been built into God’s Holy Temple. for a habitation of God in the Spirit. – Eph.2:19-22.
3. God made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, –Eph.2:6.

** “AUGUSTINE’S CONTRIBUTION TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.**

Quote: We are inserted into the Body of Christ** by our baptism** and become members united to the Head, so that while our feet may be on earth we are already in heaven.” End quote.
The above quote taken from a public letter of Paul Maloney OSA Written September 19th 2012

Because it is a MYSTERY we may not yet fully understand the way it is possible that at the SAME TIME our (spirit + soul) is in heaven built into God’s Holy Temple, siting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus and it is on the earth as well.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

Our initial justification in our baptism is an instant event, we don’t even realize it and in this work for three reasons we cannot even co-operated with the grace of God.

First reason: In our fallen state, we are spiritually dead and we accept nothing from the Spirit of God. – This is our spiritual resurrection from spiritual death.

Second reason: Our initial justification and born again in our baptism is an instant event.

Third reason: The above work of God takes us to the state of grace.
Until we are in the state of grace we cannot make supernatural decisions or do supernatural merit.

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

**FR. WILLIAM MOST TEACHES THE SAME ABOVE THEOLOGICAL FACTS

Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Fr. William Most
What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination? **

Predestination is gratuitous: For even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition.

God’s grace appears to all men (e.g.Tit. 2:11), and man’s initial “response” is the omission of resistance, which he identifies as an “ontological zero,”
meaning man does NOTHING, to enter a state of justification.

Meaning man does nothing and could do nothing, to enter the state of (initial) justification. – Because spiritually dead at the beginning and the end initially justified, born again and in the state of grace, the whole process is an instant event.

**COUNCIL OF TRENT **
. . . none of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace. End quote.

In the sequence of the events, first God does His part in our Baptism, as the results; we are spiritually alive/born again, initially justified, and we are in the state of grace.

In the FIRST STAGE of our salvation (initial justification): At baptism God puts us into the state of grace, by made and declared us righteous, taken us (our spirit + soul) up to heaven, in heaven have been built us into His Holy Temple, in heaven made us sitting together in Christ Jesus.

Without being in the state of grace we could NOT co-operate with the grace of God because we are spiritually dead.

In the SECOND STAGE of our salvation: God gives us His gift of Formed Faith and we are able to positively respond to it, BECAUSE we are already in the state of grace, born again, in heaven we have been built into God’s Holy Temple, in heaven we are sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, AT THE SAME TIME (our spirit + soul) is on the earth as well (in our unredeemed/corrupt bodies) and in spite of that, we are able to co-operate with the grace of God.

**The SECOND STAGE of our salvation: **
The second stage of our salvation is (as God’s elect) from the point God did His part in our baptism until we die.
When we die it is the end of the mystery because we are (our spirit + soul) continue living only in heaven (not on the earth as well) and our corrupt unredeemed bodies goes to the grave.

As we see above the necessity of God’s works in our baptism is absolute.

Apart from God first does His part in our baptism we are spiritually dead and we “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God.” – 1 Cor.2:14.

It is SOLELY God’s work and always PRECEDES our water baptism.

**This is the point, sometimes confusion comes in, because at this point: **
We are born again, initially justified, we are in the state of grace, in heaven we have been built into God’s Holy Temple, in heaven we are sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, and **we are not yet water baptized. **

Sometimes it is a great distance between God does His part in our baptism and we do our part in our water baptism.

If some reason we are not able to do our part of our water baptism that doesn’t stop God to do His part of our baptism which gives us initial justification, spiritual resurrection/born again and puts us into the state of grace, in heaven we have been built into God’s Holy Temple, in heaven we are sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus and if we die, the mystery is over, we continue to exist and living only in heaven and our corrupt unredeemed bodies goes to the grave on earth.

And of course God’s part to do in our baptism, always PRECEDES our water baptism.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

SUMMARY

1. God delivered us from the power of darkness and taken us (our spirit + soul) up to heaven, – Col. 1:13; Eph.2:6.

3.** In heaven** God baptized us into the body of Christ, – 1 Cor.12:13, 27.

4.** In the Body of Christ** God RE-CREATED us (from spiritual death, in Christ God made us spiritually alive, – 1 Cor.15:22; Eph.2:1). – At our re-creation God MADE us righteous and MADE us SONS of God and NEW CREATIONS / BORN AGAIN by given us a new heart, given us a new spirit and God put His Spirit into us – Ez.36:26-27; 2 Cor.5:17; 1 Cor.3:16; 1 Cor.6:19.

1. God JUSTIFIED us. – At our justification God DECLARED us righteous and DECLARED us to be sons of God. – Rom.3:24; Rom.8:15.
2. In heaven in Christ (our spirit + soul) have been built into God’s Holy Temple. for a habitation of God in the Spirit. – Eph.2:19-22.
3. God made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, –Eph.2:6.

** “AUGUSTINE’S CONTRIBUTION TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.**

Quote: We are inserted into the Body of Christ** by our baptism** and become members united to the Head, so that while our feet may be on earth we are already in heaven.” End quote.
The above quote taken from a public letter of Paul Maloney OSA Written September 19th 2012

Because it is a MYSTERY we may not yet fully understand the way it is possible that at the SAME TIME our (spirit + soul) is in heaven built into God’s Holy Temple, siting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus and it is on the earth as well.

A VALID BAPTISM TAKES PLACE IN HEAVEN AND INCLUDES

1. In heaven in Christ (our spirit + soul) have been built into God’s Holy Temple. for a habitation of God in the Spirit. – Eph.2:19-22.
2. God made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, –Eph.2:6.

So, every validly baptized have been built into God’s Holy Temple, sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

If a reprobate would reach heaven God would lose His omniscience.

For a reprobate to have a valid baptism, would have to go up to heaven, would have to built into God’s Holy Temple, would have to sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

QUESTION

Can a reprobate go up to heaven, can he have been built into God’s Holy Temple, can he sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus as the NECESSITY and the RESULTS that he would have a valid baptism?

God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

**God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.

Two additional questions:**

1. Can the reprobates have life as their names taken out from the Book of Life from all eternity?
2. Can be a baptism a valid baptism who would die one second after his baptism and would go instantly to hell?

I believe the answers for both questions an absolute NO.

What do you think about my answers Cathoholic?

God bless Cathoholic.

LatinRight

 

[Cathoholic]

TL;DR

(except for parts).

I’ll pray for your hearing loss Latin Right. Sorry to hear you’ve gone through that.

 

[LatinRight]

TL;DR

(except for parts).

I’ll pray for your hearing loss Latin Right. Sorry to hear you’ve gone through that.

God bless Cathoholic.

Thank you for your post and prayer.

As you suggested I watched the debate with Trent Horn & James White.

A have written down some Bible verses they used, I will study them.

If there is a written text on the debate I really like to read it.

Thank you again for your prayer Cathoholic, God bless.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

God bless every readers of the CAF.

I have watched again Trent Horn & James White debate on; Can a Christian lose salvation?

As I have 90 % hearing loss I couldn’t understand even one word of it.

So, my understanding came from the Bible verses they used and some written text appeared on the screen.

**I inferred:

Trent Horn position is: **
God’s chosen sons and daughters/elect can lose their salvation/everlasting life and some of them can end up in hell.

James White position is:
God’s chosen sons and daughters/elect cannot lose their salvation/everlasting life and none of them can end up in hell.

**Did I inferred their position correctly?

Thanks the information in advance.

God bless.**

LatinRight

 

[James248]

God bless every readers of the CAF.

I have watched again Trent Horn & James White debate on; Can a Christian lose salvation?

As I have 90 % hearing loss I couldn’t understand even one word of it.

So, my understanding came from the Bible verses they used and some written text appeared on the screen.

**I inferred:

Trent Horn position is: **
God’s chosen sons and daughters/elect can lose their salvation/everlasting life and some of them can end up in hell.

James White position is:
God’s chosen sons and daughters/elect cannot lose their salvation/everlasting life and none of them can end up in hell.

**Did I inferred their position correctly?

Thanks the information in advance.

God bless.**

LatinRight

Someone can be elect to initial justification and not be elect to eternal salvation.

 

[LatinRight]

Someone can be elect to initial justification and not be elect to eternal salvation.

God bless James and every readers of the CAF.

I’m sure you know James, there are only two groups of people in Catholic theology.

God’s chosen sons and daughters/elect: All Predestined to heaven.

Reprobates: All Predestined to hell. – By their vehement rejection of God and His grace practically they predestined themselves to hell from all eternity.

God has taken out their names from the Book of Life **from all eternity.
**

If a reprobate would reach heaven God would lose His omniscience.

A valid baptism and initial justification takes place in heaven, a reprobate can never reach heaven.

**So, a reprobate cannot have a valid baptism and CANNOT HAVE INITIAL JUSTIFICATION!!!
**

If you believe James, a reprobate could have valid baptism and initial justification without God taken them up to heaven,** please explain it to us how it is possible without violating the related theological facts.**

Can you explain it James, the way it is possible for a reprobate to be initially justified, without he goes up to heaven and without a valid baptism.

If you are able to explain it James, then I believe; God initially justify the reprobates, who are predestined to hell from all eternity and their names taken out from the Book of Life from all eternity.

Until then I don’t believe, God initially justify even one reprobate.

No one can blame me if I don’t believe something what so far NO ONE explained to me.

It is a very detailed explanation the way God baptizes and initially justify His chosen sons and daughters/elect.

But so far I never heard any explanation the way God validly baptizes and initially justify the reprobates **who are for their vehement rejection of God and His grace predestined to hell from all eternity and their names taken out from the Book of Life from all eternity. **

**QUESTIONS FOR YOU JAMES TO ANSWER **

1. Can a reprobate go up to heaven, can he have been built into God’s Holy Temple, can he sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus as the NECESSITY and the RESULTS that he would have a valid baptism and initially justified?
2. If you believe James, a reprobate could have valid baptism and initial justification without God taken them up to heaven, please explain it to us how it is possible without violating the related theological facts.
3. Can the reprobates have life as their names taken out from the Book of Life from all eternity?
4. Can be a baptism a valid baptism, who would die one second after his baptism and would go instantly to hell?

5.** If a reprobate can be validly baptized and initially justified and as the result being in the state of grace: **
How God make sure a reprobate could never die in the state of grace? – Very important question!!!

If someone states: God saves and justifies the reprobates.

That statement has zero credibility, without the detailed explanation the way God saves and justifies the reprobates and MOST IMPORTANTLY to explain, the way God makes sure, no reprobate would ever die in the state of grace!!!

Of course, the explanation must be in harmony with the related theological facts.

If an elect would die in the state of mortal sin and end up in hell God would lose His omniscience.

The opposite is true, if a reprobate would die in the state of grace, would end up in heaven and God would also lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE Dogma.

You see James, the Church has infallible teachings (The Gift of Final Perseverance) the way God protects His chosen sons and daughters/elect’s salvation/everlasting life that none of them could ever die in the state of mortal sin.

Without the Church infallible teaching which would explain, a reprobate could never die in the state of grace, the teaching of predestination to grace (God saves the reprobates in the state of grace) is very fallible teaching.

You see James, if God would really save the reprobates in the state of grace, the Church would have infallible teachings which would infallible teach the way God makes sure that no reprobate could ever die in the state of grace!!!

If even one reprobate would die in the state of grace in all Christian history, would end up in heaven and God would lose His omniscience.

So, James, What is your theory, what is the reason that not even one reprobate ever die in the state of grace in all Christian history?

I have my theory, because not even one reprobate ever is in the state of grace even one second in all Christian history.

**DISCLAIMER

IF ANYONE ABLE TO PROVE TO ME:**
A reprobate can go up to heaven, he can be built into God’s Holy Temple, he can sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus as the NECESSITY and the RESULTS that he would have a valid baptism and initially justified, then I give up my above theory and I believe, a reprobate can be saved and can be in the state of grace.

God bless James and every readers of the CAF.

Latin Right

 

[James248]

God bless James and every readers of the CAF.

I’m sure you know James, there are only two groups of people in Catholic theology.

God’s chosen sons and daughters/elect: All Predestined to heaven.

Reprobates: All Predestined to hell. – By their vehement rejection of God and His grace practically they predestined themselves to hell from all eternity.

God has taken out their names from the Book of Life **from all eternity.
**

If you believe James, a reprobate could have valid baptism and initial justification without God taken them up to heaven,** please explain it to us how it is possible without violating the related theological facts.**

Can you explain it James, the way it is possible for a reprobate to be initially justified, without he goes up to heaven and without a valid baptism.

But so far I never heard any explanation the way God validly baptizes and initially justify the reprobates **who are for their vehement rejection of God and His grace predestined to hell from all eternity and their names taken out from the Book of Life from all eternity. **

**QUESTIONS FOR YOU JAMES TO ANSWER **

1. Can a reprobate go up to heaven, can he have been built into God’s Holy Temple, can he sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus as the NECESSITY and the RESULTS that he would have a valid baptism and initially justified?
2. If you believe James, a reprobate could have valid baptism and initial justification without God taken them up to heaven, please explain it to us how it is possible without violating the related theological facts.
3. Can the reprobates have life as their names taken out from the Book of Life from all eternity?
4. Can be a baptism a valid baptism, who would die one second after his baptism and would go instantly to hell?

5.** If a reprobate can be validly baptized and initially justified and as the result being in the state of grace: **
How God make sure a reprobate could never die in the state of grace? – Very important question!!!

If someone states: God saves and justifies the reprobates.

That statement has zero credibility, without the detailed explanation the way God saves and justifies the reprobates and MOST IMPORTANTLY to explain, the way God makes sure, no reprobate would ever die in the state of grace!!!

Of course, the explanation must be in harmony with the related theological facts.

If an elect would die in the state of mortal sin and end up in hell God would lose His omniscience.

The opposite is true, if a reprobate would die in the state of grace, would end up in heaven and God would also lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE Dogma.

You see James, the Church has infallible teachings (The Gift of Final Perseverance) the way God protects His chosen sons and daughters/elect’s salvation/everlasting life that none of them could ever die in the state of mortal sin.

Without the Church infallible teaching which would explain, a reprobate could never die in the state of grace, the teaching of predestination to grace (God saves the reprobates in the state of grace) is very fallible teaching.

You see James, if God would really save the reprobates in the state of grace, the Church would have infallible teachings which would infallible teach the way God makes sure that no reprobate could ever die in the state of grace!!!

If even one reprobate would die in the state of grace in all Christian history, would end up in heaven and God would lose His omniscience.

So, James, What is your theory, what is the reason that not even one reprobate ever die in the state of grace in all Christian history?

I have my theory, because not even one reprobate ever is in the state of grace even one second in all Christian history.

**DISCLAIMER

IF ANYONE ABLE TO PROVE TO ME:**
A reprobate can go up to heaven, he can be built into God’s Holy Temple, he can sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus as the NECESSITY and the RESULTS that he would have a valid baptism and initially justified, then I give up my above theory and I believe, a reprobate can be saved and can be in the state of grace.

God bless James and every readers of the CAF.

Latin Right

It’s been said over and over: God doesn’t predestine ANYONE to Hell. A person who is baptized can fall away.
Read this link.
ewtn.com/library/answers/tulip.htm

If one is talking about predestination to final salvation, then a predestined person will stay with God, but this does not mean the predestined are the only ones who experience initial salvation. Some might genuinely come to God (because they were predestined to initial salvation) and then genuinely leave (because they were not predestined to final salvation). [39] Either way, predestination to initial salvation does not entail predestination to final salvation. [40] There is no reason why a person cannot be predestined to “believe for a while” but “in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:13). [41]

 

[ajcstr]

From post 596

Amen to the words of St Therese, and thank you for sharing them.

Forgive my discomfort with the phrase, “merit for ourselves and for others the graces…”. Beyond that, I can’t help but agree in a general sense the CCC as you quote it

So I think If I spent all my time mowing the lawn and in the shower I’d be one of the smartest persons on earth.

Anyway … Would you agree that you/we can pray for graces for ourselves/someone else ? (think St Monica/Augustine)

 

[ajcstr]

If there is a written text on the debate I really like to read it.

I don’t believe there is a written form of the debate, but just as a side note…

Catholic Productions provides outlines for many if not all of their CD/MP3 material. Simply click on the “Excerpt and Outline” tab for each talk on their site for a printable PDF outline. These 2 would be applicable here:

store.catholicproductions.com/collections/mp3-sets/products/faith-and-works-according-to-paul-and-james?variant=16682901761

store.catholicproductions.com/collections/mp3-sets/products/what-must-i-do-to-be-saved-the-new-perspective-on-paul-and-the-catholic-doctrine-of-justification?variant=16706816705

 

[Bookcat]

Pope Benedict XVI on the subjects of Faith and Works and Law in St. Paul

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (scroll down)